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2013 and Earlier - Hyundai Sonata Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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Comments

  • kyfdx@Edmundskyfdx@Edmunds Posts: 25,901
    1) $200 off MSRP before the rebate is a terrible deal.

    2) No way a '95 Civic will qualify for C4C. It only applies to cars with a combined EPA rating of 18 mpg or less.

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    I have also seen direct evidence of prices (of Sonatas, for this discussion) going up since the C4C program started. I am not whining or complaining, just stating a fact. And we should not be surprised this happened, since we have a free market driven by supply and demand. The Sonata is a desirable car right now, given it's reasonably priced and has very good fuel economy, especially for a large-ish car. So I would be surprised had prices not gone up.

    Here is an example: in my area there is a large chain of dealerships that have a "no-haggle" pricing policy. I track car prices pretty carefully (one of my "hobbies", and no, I don't get out much). This particular chain was advertising Sonata GLS AT with no options prices before C4C in the mid-$15's, before T&L. There were similar advertised prices from other dealerships in town. This past weekend, I noticed the same Sonatas (same base price) advertised by the no-haggle dealer for just under $17k, before T&L. In both cases, a $3000 rebate applied. I have seen comparable increases for popular, fuel-efficient models like the Focus (a hot seller in the C4C program), 2010 Fusion and Milan, and Malibu. News reports talk of dealerships flooded with buyers, sales reps working with 3 people at one time. No wonder prices have gone up!

    So, not the best time for someone without a clunker to buy a new car--unless it's one that doesn't qualify for C4C. Then you might get a real steal.
  • geetmalageetmala Posts: 17
    Backy,

    Good for you that you do the research. I will again say that consumer empowerment is what Edmunds and it's users do best. Dealers are always going to lure you in w/ all sort of ways, free market or not. It doesn't change the fact that supply is still very very high than demand. Sure the Sonata is in high demand right now but there's still access inventory on the lots. Perhaps expanding ones reach beyond local dealers is the way to go. That's what we did and saved a lot of money.

    You should put the dealer's info here so buyers can stay away. My experience is to stay far far away from so called "high volume, low profit, no haggle price" dealers, it's usually a sham. Those to me are red flags to stay away from that dealership. I just had my friend who's interested in a GLS check out the Olathe Hyundai in KS and they have 202 Sonatas in stock and a GLS w/ PEP 03 is around $15,600 (rebates applied) and they are willing to deal as well.

    In my case, I used Edmunds to get price quotes from local and regional dealers by explicitly stating that I will only respond via e-mail and will not answer any phone calls and will block all spam e-mail. I got 3 local and two regional dealers w/ transparent OTD door. 5 moronic dealership were sent to trash folder forever. It took me only 3 e-mails to finalize the deal and then drive 2 hrs to take delivery, a minor inconvenience for $1200 savings. The dealer was so thankful that he gave me $25 GC for a local food joint and an extra keyless remote.

    All I am saying is that you can very easily turn the tide in your favor while keeping in mind that the dealership is a business that needs to make money as well. You decide how much money they make off of you. Traditional car buying/pricing has always been somewhat of a blackbox but Edmunds is helping change that. I remember when Edmunds first started TMV pricing, dealers laughed at you when you showed it to them, today almost everyone prices their cars around that number by advertising "below Blue Book" pricing.
  • billwardbillward Posts: 154
    Geetmala, the problem is that Backy is RIGHT. I've been following the current gen Sonata closely since 2006; I fell in love with the car at just the point we needed to replace a Ford Taurus on it's 3rd bad transmission with only 98K total miles; we ended up buying a 2003 Sonata instead (couldn't quite swing the new car costs at the time) and loved it; however, I've driven probably 30 Sonatas of every level since then, pricing, comparing, etc. Last fall, we said we'd finally buy the new Sonata in the June/July time frame (actually glad we went a couple months early now!), and we found the best buys we could from March on... and prices were absolute rock bottom in March. They inched slightly higher in April, and were fairly flat in May. However, in late June, prices rocketed up, and the folks reporting what they were getting were finding deals that were $500-$1000 more for "Good Deals" than what could be had in March. Now, they're ~$1500 more than what they were.... I got a better car than YOU did (same basic car, but with BlueConnect) for less than you paid, with NO trade in, NO C4C, for $200 LESS for the base price pre TTL than you just reported your friend got (now, if he got PEP w/Sunroof, then I'm slightly mistaken; you got $700 for your trade in, effectively, in that case, but it doesn't change the POINT of the arguement).

    Dealers have raised the "bottom line" prices they charge... they're pocketing the excess (not access) money as profit. You "got" a $3500 C4C allowance that the government paid; you actually benefited $700 but gave up your trade in for free to get it. The dealer pocketed the rest as pure profit.

    And for the guy who DOESN'T have a C4C, it's a VERY bad deal, as the dealer isn't going to give him a break since he doesn't qualify; he's going to laugh his way to the bank.

    Best thing for the consumer, NOW, was for C4C to DIE. Instead, they just gave it another $2B. Me, personally, I'd rather they had just given a tax credit next April 15th to everyone who bought a car that got good enought mileage in CY2009 (say, $1500; would have worked out about the same, in the end, but wouldn't have lined the dealer's pockets so much and would have caused a bigger stimulus).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    There is hope...news report today mentioned traffic is beginning to slack off in dealerships, one reason being the models that offer the highest fuel economy are growing scarce. Maybe folks are put off by the higher prices also?

    BTW... re another comment--the Walser dealership chain in MN is NOT a "sham." They have a long-standing "no-haggle" pricing policy. They tend to offer pretty good discounts on their cars, in my experience. Are they the lowest prices that an expert negotiator could get? Probably not. But they are after the buyers who don't like the typical car buying experience, the pressure, the negotiations, the "games" some dealers play. They are pretty successful so it seems there are enough people who like the way they do business. I've found them pleasant to work with in car shopping over the years. Only bought one car from them, a 2004 Prius, as they were the only dealer that offered any kind of discount on the car at the time I bought it. (And I never took delivery, but that is a long story.) Came pretty close on a couple of other purchases, new and used. For people who like to negotiate, there's many other dealers to choose from.
  • geetmalageetmala Posts: 17
    Billward,

    This is my first Hyundai and I love my Sonata so far. It’s way better value than Accord and Camry. Since I usually drive mine forever till they die, resale is not an issue. Thanks for sharing your experiences, it makes me feel just that much better with my purchase. I am sure you’ll enjoy your for some time to come.

    Few people here report prices hikes after CFC so it must be true to some degree. Seems like we got lucky with static prices after CFC went into effect OR by your account we were just plain duped into trading our clunkers for peanuts. I traded in a ’99 Ford minivan with 179K (surprised it lasted that long – it barely did) and the other was a ‘97 Seville, 162K miles, that had just started to show signs of overheating. Both were worth less than $1000 trade-in.

    I am curious to learn how much did I overpay compared to March prices. So, please share your OTD price breakdown. Here are my price breakdowns again.

    2009 Hyundai Sonata, LTD, 4cyl
    Coco Metallic w/ Coco interior
    Options - Navigation, Bluetooth, Floor Mats, Cargo Net, Cargo Tray, Mud Guards
    Polymer Paint Protection, Nitrogen Filled Tires (these cost the dealer $40, $15 so I don’t consider them part of the deal, although the dealers charge $499-599 & $70-90 for these – what a rip off!)

    Negotiated price - $22,395
    Freight - $720
    Proc fees - $349 (only in VA)
    Tags, title, reg - $202
    Sales Tax - 1,429.14
    Hyundai Rebate - $3,000
    CFC Rebate - $3,500
    ---------------------------------------------
    OTD Price - $18,595.14
    ---------------------------------------------

    2009 Hyundai Sonata, GLS, 4cyl
    Ebony Black w/ Gray Interior
    Options: PEP 03 (sunroof), Floor Mats, Cargo Tray & Mat, Mud Guards (I think I miswrote in earlier posts that it was PEP)

    Negotiated Price - $18,517
    Freight - $720
    Proc Fees - $349 (only in VA)
    PA Tax - $1,152.22
    Tags, title, reg - $202
    Hyundai Rebate - $3,000
    CFC Rebate - $3,500
    ---------------------------------------------
    OTD PRICE - $14,442.22
    ---------------------------------------------

    BTW: I just called the same dealer and they are out of 09 Sonatas and are expecting 01s next week w/ only $1000 rebate.
  • geetmalageetmala Posts: 17
    Backy,

    I know quiet a few people who love the idea of "NO HAGGLE" pricing and always go to those dealers. And most in my area claim to have such pricing. It's a matter of pure personal preference and certainly not for me. From my perspective, one needs transparent pricing instead of the black box approach.

    My aversion to such dealers comes from truly arrogant dealers like the one who always has the biggest ad in all newspapers and on TV for NO HAGGLE pricing and when I walked in last year they told me that they are having a special sale this week and I can pick up the new Accord EX for the sticker price as usually there is at least a 10% markup for these extremely high demand black on black models. Surely, it was 'NO HAGGLE' but I felt that I should be thanking my lucky stars that the dealership is bestowing a huge favor upon me and I don't have to sign-over my first born to get the car. Needless to say, I was out of there within the minute never to revisit. Of course, they are one of the biggest dealer in my tri-state region and have been for the longest time, but they are NOT for me. I am willing to pay a bit extra for a courteous and pleasant buying experience.

    BTW, my local Costco's price for the same car was $2,635 less delivered to my home. I just didn't think it was good value even at that price. I didn't like the awkward exterior styling and the equally hideous interior of the new Accord. Again, a matter of pure personal preference.
  • billwardbillward Posts: 154
    Geetmala, my BUYING experience is at this message; however, to sum it up (top of my head) I paid ~$15630 for PEP w/o the Sunroof, but with Blue Connect for the GLS I4 Automatic, floormats, and the IPOD cable; the MSRP is $900 for the sunroof, so set that to $16530 plus a small bit because I didn't get the mudflaps (and didn't want them). Your price is almost EXACTLY $2000 more than that amount, so I guess you did do better than the 700... by almost exactly the sunroof (as I mentioned in your message, if your PEP was with the sunroof, you did somewhat better than that. Of the $3500, you got $1500, but had to give up you old car; you said it was worth less than $1000. If we assume it was worth $500, you pocketed $1000 of the C4C money, and the dealer took $2500.... and that's since I bought in MAY, when prices had already started the rebound from the low of March (of course, in reality, you did even worse; the TMV for the sunroof is NOT $900, it's something like $710, IIRC, and your trade in was STILL probably worth more than $500... that's what I'll get off my taxes for donating my son's now dead (since last week) 18 year old Mercury Tracer with 370K miles on it to the Kidney Foundation. Your OTD price is lower... because I didn't do a trade in at all.

    Don't get me, or Backy, wrong... you might ACTUALLY end up paying less today with C4C.... but the average amount is ~$1K and giving up your old car "free". If the old car really is worth nearly nothing (like the Tracer, except of course it wouldn't qualify for C4C....), bonus. But if the clunker itself has any value, you get even less. And the $3500 (or $4500) that it's costing taxpayers isn't worth it. And for the poor guy who doesn't have a handy clunker that qualifies....... it's not a good time to buy, at all.
  • geetmalageetmala Posts: 17
    Billward,

    Given my limited math skills, let me see I understand this correctly.

    If your $15,630 is OTD (incl taxes, freight, and options lets say for ~$2000-2400), then, YES I certainly overpaid by >$2000 than you and negated all of the C4C benefit w/ my free trade.

    However, if the $15,630 excludes taxes, fees, and freight then my comparable price is $14,106+$1411(PEP 03) = $15,517 - $3500 (C4C) = $12,017 which as you can see is much less than what you paid. Hey I am just trying to feel better here..... OK.

    Maybe I need to understand the tax code again, as I always thought the value of donated car is applied towards your deductions as a line item and NOT taken lump sump as a tax rebate - big difference.
  • geetmalageetmala Posts: 17
    My apologies to all for hogging this forum w/ these back and forth messages.

    Let's just agree on a reasonably good price for GLS+PEP and LTD trims. Here's what I can tell everyone based on our purchases.

    GLS+PEP 03 = $15,500 (incl $3K Hyundai rebate) and $12,000 after $3.5K C4C

    LTD = $18,000 (incl $3K Hyundai rebate), and $14,500 after $3.5K C4C

    Use these prices as a starting point to negotiate. And try to find a dealer that still has enough inventory of 09 Sonatas. At this point, color/option choices maybe limited as supplies dwindle.

    Good luck and enjoy your new Sonatas to the fullest.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Posts: 205
    CFC is a dealership taxpayer transfer payment program.

    Whether you've bought a car or not, taken advantage of this boondoggle or not, you can rest assured that your taxes are being used to ensure dealers can ask MSRP for their cars, sell a boatload of cars to people thinking they're getting a good deal, when in fact, they'd had been better of buying 3 months ago with no trade in (they could've sold that for gravy, 3 months ago).

    This program should be called TFD (Taxdollars For Dealerships). New car dealerships LOVE it.

    In the case of the Sonata, a new GLS with PEP, auto, could have been had from Fitz for $14,300 3 months ago, AND you could have sold your "clunker" and taken that income off that price.

    Now, Fitz has the same car at....ta da!!! $16,000+.

    Ain't government meddling grand?
  • billwardbillward Posts: 154
    As I said, you actually probably DID pay out of pocket less than in May (and as I said, by the looks of it, comparing direct apples to apples, my calculations say you got up to $1500 in your pocket of the C4C money, if your trade in was worth $0) but their are two caveats; The first is that you get "Nothing" for your old car; you could also translate that as "I got the difference in what Bill paid and what I paid for my old car as the trade in". That may/may not be a good deal, depending on the car. The second caveat is that you now have to pay for the $3500 or $4500 in increased taxes, or decreased govenement services; you only pay your share, of course, but EVERYONE now has to pay. For the $3B, that means that for every man, woman, and child in the country, C4C has cost us EACH $10, on average. For my family, at my tax bracket, it's closer to $55. Of our share, the dealerships around the country pocketed about $40. $15 went to buyers (such as you) that used C4C. I don't mind the $55, per se, but I'd much rather have had those number be reversed in that case.

    C4C might have actually been helpful, briefly.... but now it's just welfare for the dealerships. It's also raised the price of new cars significantly for those who cannot take advantage of C4C (with the SOLE possible exception of those trying to buy a used car... the market for those has decreased).

    And as you asked, yes, the donation counts as a decrease in my earned amount, not a credit; when we did it a few years back, though, it was enough to make a significant drop in our taxable income for the year, because it moved our tax bracket.
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    Yes young space cadets the dealers/manufacturers have "worked a govt program" just like defence contractors, pharmaceuticals, and other contract players have for centuries.

    ---------------- From another forum, just replace "G6" in many places with your car.

    The G6 is based on the same platform as the Malibu and Saturn Aura. I believe the 08 $22000 (approx) G6, Malibu and Aura have a used trade in value (with avg miles ) of about 10k, 11k and 11k respectively.(kbb.com) This is what the $22000 09 will be worth in 12 months.

    Almost certainly great deals were to be had this summer on the G6 and malibu but the " Cash for clunkers" deal from your govt propped up the price $3000 or more, and the stock sold off.

    Yes virginia, the dealers raised the price by $3000 or so and people bought the cars for about the same price after the gov't money as they sold for a month earlier. Possibly even more given funny money lease and other finance deals. Straight from the gov't to the dealers and manufacturers. Worse, it appears most of the money went to foreign nameplates rather than the Domestic's, to which 80 BILLION of your tax money has also been sunk into.

    A G6 that could be had for under 14000 in June. couldn't be touched for under $17000 for a while, without a (highly specific) clunker. With the stock sold off and the clunker program re-funded till Nov., prepare to pay much more than $13000 for a lefftover 09 (and discontinued nameplate?) worth about $10,000 in a year.

    Just saw a lot full of "clunkers" with "not for sale" marked on their windshield. Looking at them they ranged from about $600-$6000 vehicles. Probably averaged about $1800. By the time you figure the dealers jacked the price up $2000-3000, and the clunker trade could have been sold for $1800 or so, it is a complete wash, with documentation, special destruction costs etc added on. The environmental teaser used to sell the program as usual, a joke.

    And 95% of new car (non clunker) buyers get to buy cars for higher prices until this artificial subsidy expires in november. Probably another $6 billion out of consumer's pockets on top of the $3 billion program cost put on your taxpayer credit card.

    Good luck
    --jjf

    CFC is a dealership taxpayer transfer payment program.

    Whether you've bought a car or not, taken advantage of this boondoggle or not, you can rest assured that your taxes are being used to ensure dealers can ask MSRP for their cars, sell a boatload of cars to people thinking they're getting a good deal, when in fact, they'd had been better of buying 3 months ago with no trade in (they could've sold that for gravy, 3 months ago).

    This program should be called TFD (Taxdollars For Dealerships). New car dealerships LOVE it.

    In the case of the Sonata, a new GLS with PEP, auto, could have been had from Fitz for $14,300 3 months ago, AND you could have sold your "clunker" and taken that income off that price.

    Now, Fitz has the same car at....ta da!!! $16,000+.

    Ain't government meddling grand?
  • flywin1flywin1 Posts: 4
    On August 9, 2009 I purchased a 2009 Sonata GLS PZEV from Sacramento Hyundai in Sacramento, CA. The vehicle was described by the salesman and sales manager as a NEW vehicle that was used as demo and has 5000+miles. However, I found out this is not correct. The vehicle has a USED titled. It is definitely not what we were told from the beginning of the deal. The dealer and the sales manager cheated us.

    First, the vehicle was deceptively marketed as new when it was not. The car was placed in the area where the new cars were and not where the used car section was. The car price tag on the window also appeared similar to those of other new vehicles.

    Second, the dealer misrepresented the vehicle history. The salesman and the sale manager told us the vehicle is new, not a used car. The salesman told us that the mileages ran from the road test by the manager. The manager even told us that it was his car. He test drove it. When we asked to see the user manual and the spare key, they told us the customer service had closed and we could come back to get it the following day. However, when we went back the next day, we had been told the vehicle was transferred from another dealership and the manual and keys were still there. They asked us to come back again. From that point, we realized the vehicle was from the other dealership and the sales manager hid the vehicle history.

    Third complaint is the auto dealer financing scam. When we went back to question the dealership about the used car title, the sales manager again stated that the car is new. That is why we can get the 60 months, 0% interest rate + $1500 bonus cash. That incentive is for new 2009 vehicles only. One more time, he tried to make us to believe the demo car is new.

    Forth complaint is that we lost the chance to purchase a two-day sales contract cancellation option because we thought the vehicle is new after the salesman and the sales manager told the vehicle is new numerous times. Therefore, we didn't ask to ge the cancellation option that we are entitled to under California's Buyer's Bill of Rights.

    We are really upset with the purchase of the car and feel that there were deceptive practices used. We would not have purchased this car if we knew it was used and would not have paid new car pricing for a used car, total $22,500. We definitely don't recommend this dealer.

    If you have any legal advice or comments, I really appreciate it.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,628
    I think you do need to talk to a lawyer. This sounds like material misrepresentation on the part of the dealer. The trick will be to prove it, via documentation, and testimony from others. First, you might try taking your complaint to the owner of the dealership to see if he/she will do the right thing. If not, you might contact your local TV stations. Some of them love to run this kind of "consumer" report on their local news, and might even have one of their investigative reporters pay the dealership a visit. A long shot, but businesses hate negative publicity like that, and maybe even the threat of it would cause a change of heart by the dealership.

    The other really bad thing about this is, if in fact the car really is used, it has only the remainder of the 5-year, 60k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty left--and not the 10-year, 100k mile powertrain warranty (so powertrain is covered only under the remainder of the 5-year warranty).

    It wouldn't hurt to talk with Hyundai Customer Support about this also.
  • flywin1flywin1 Posts: 4
    Thanks so much for your advice. I did email the owner of the dealership couple times, but no response. Now I see the light in the dark.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Posts: 205
    The SAME EXACT SONATA AUTO GLS that was available for $14,200 before 'cash for clunkers' at Fitzmall is now $16,508.00.

    Thanks government! Thanks new car dealers!

    Ughhhh.
  • i360i360 Posts: 74
    Why would you buy a "new" car with so many miles on it already? Anyway if its used, as in titled and all once before, you can use that as proof as being deceived. You were purchasing a new car, and not a used one (obviously). That dealership that did that to you is complete scum. You should get some real legal advise for sure. You can also contact your Attorney General if needed!!!!!
  • Many dealers will have a “Manager’s Special” type car on the lot. This car is technically “new” because it has never been titled. However, usually these “Manager’s Special” cars have a few thousand miles on them.

    Always AVOID the Manager’s Special cars. Even with the steep discount they offer, you’re taking a rather large gamble. Here’s why:

    Though they claim that only “executives” have driven the car on official business, that is never the case. Everyone who works at the dealership has driven that car - the mechanic who went out to pick up lunch, the customer service lady who had to make a deposit at the bank, etc, etc. You can never be too sure if they drove the car with care. BUT, I ask you this: when you drive a rental car, do you treat it as well as your own car? No, you don’t.

    A good friend of mine used to be in sales at a local Ford dealership, and he said that one of the running jokes would be who could sell the “Manager’s Special” car. He said they ragged the car out (jack-rabbit starts, drove off curbs, let it idle for HOURS!, hard breaking, etc.). The car never had a proper break-in period, and, as such, had extreme wear and tear on it.

    Please, please, please, do yourself a HUGE favor, always avoid any kind of “Manager’s Special” car. Even with the steep discount up front, you will lose that money in the long run with extra repairs. In fact, if a car on the lot has more than say 50 miles on it (a few test drives’ worth), don’t buy it.
  • flywin1flywin1 Posts: 4
    We like the color, Cocoa Metallic. We though it is new as the sale manager kept telling us; and the car was placed in the area where the new cars were and not where the used car section was.

    Yes, I am looking for any possible ways I can afford in getting the legal help. Also, I am sharing the pain experience is to warn other vehicle shoppers. Don't believe what the sales say. An unregistered vehicles regularly used or operated as demonstrators in the sales work of a dealer or unregistered vehicles regularly used or operated by a manufacturer in the sales or distribution work of such manufacturer is defined as a "used vehicle" by CA law. (Wish I knew it before.)
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