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GTO values & anything else GTO related

2

Comments

  • tmjddstmjdds Posts: 22
    Is there an annual "festival" or "rally" that GTO owners and sellers get together? I am interested in buying a 67 and would like to see a whole bunch of them before I do. Looking for a convertible 400 HO with 4speed and lots of options. Red or Blue. Completely restored.

    Anyone know of any other sites that have GTO message boards?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,279
    I'm sure the clubs have boards. Do a search for GTO clubs or Pontiac clubs on search engine google.com. Our Classics board is really fun but small compared to the other boards here at Edmunds.

    So go there but also come and visit us. We need more good energy for the Classics Board.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    This site should get you started nicely:


    GTO Association of America http://www.gtoaa.org/

  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    This looks kind of interesting:


    http://www.pontiacenthusiast.com/

    And here's the man himself, Jim Wangers. That's Jim on the right with his trademark toupe. Looks like Jim is carrying quite a weight handicap these days. The Judge he's leaning on looks like the one I had, only this one doesn't have a white vinyl top and a dent in the fender, but it's pretty nice anyway.

    http://www.sdweb.com/musclecars/GTO6.htm

  • parmparm Posts: 723
    I've been following eBay auctions on two very similar '67 GTO (automatics and no A/C) convertibles. Both cars were being sold by a well-known dealer in Ohio. These cars appear well put together and in #2 condition. As a matter of fact, I referenced these cars in post #1 above.

    The auctions on both cars ended at $20,000 +/-. Interestingly enough, the final bid on both cars was within $200 of each other (talk about a consistent market!) and each car seemed to draw its own unique set of bidders.

    However, $20,000 did not meet the seller's minimum reserve. So, it would appear there was no sale for either car - unless some behind-the-scenes negotiations are taking place in that the auctions ended only a few hours ago.

    I visit this dealer's website regularly and he's had these cars for about 6 months. Up until a couple of weeks ago, his asking price on these cars was around $34,000. However, these prices have been reduced down to $29,900 and $32,900. Thus, his reserve was probably closer to $30,000 than it was to $20,000. I've not personally inspected these cars, though I've been tempted to make the 90 minute drive just to look them over. Too rich for my blood though :(

    Up until these cars were put on eBay, I figured if someone walked in the door with a briefcase containing $15,000 to $20,000 in cash, that you'd be able to leave with one of these cars. However, based on these recent auction results, it looks like I would've been a little "light" and would have wound up walking home instead.

    Thought I'd offer this valuation observation and, as always, would encourage others to weigh in.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,279
    Well, it is US who decides the market, not the dealer who won't sell. If the cars didn't meet reserve on Ebay, my guess is that they are not priced to market value or perhaps the buyers are reluctant to pay top dollar for a #2 car (maybe $25K if it's a beauty) because they do not trust the long distance view.

    I can tell you that of all the claimed #2 cars I appraise, the vast majority are in fact #3s. And a #3 GTO convertible automatic is about a $17K car at best, so if in fact this car (on Ebay) was between a #3 and #2 (most likely the case), then the bids were absolutely spot on.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    While, I know it wasn't your intent Mr. Shiftright, I take your GTO value comments above as a compliment! In that, they support my initial gut feeling of these cars being worth $15K-$20K.

    Guess your wisdom is starting to rub off - and I am the better for it! ;-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,279
    My intent wasn't to be complimentary or critical, just to give an idea of current market. What I was trying to say was that the bidders were not fools....WELL...buying anything that expensive on Ebay without an inspection is a bit reckless...I mean that they are not fools about values.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    I didn't take my good-natured comments in post #38 seriously. Hope you didn't either. ;-)
  • Being the owner of a 67 GTO conv.I am very biased
    as to the value of MY car.I haved owned it since 1971.Refering to #36,these cars look nice in the pics (online) but guessing at the condition from a few pics is pure speculation.If you think your car is worth XX,put a few pics online and let viewers estimate its value,I think you would find
    a similar lowering of the $ value.As I have heard
    said,nothing is worth anything until it sells.The
    babyboomer who wants MY car will give me 30K IF he really wants it bad enough.Again,my bias.
    Does anyone know the location/name of the QJ carb
    shop in Pennsylvania? I believe they are QJ only.
    I read about them in Edmunds long ago but cannot locate them again (so far). Thanks.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    In order for a car to be sold, it FIRST has to be for sale. It doesn't sound like your '67 GTO is actively being marketed and thus is not really for sale in the traditional sense. Obviously, all things are for sale if someone backs up a truck full of cash to your house. But, I don't consider that a typical (or likely), market-driven sale transaction. Others have said it and I'll reiterate that buyers establish market values NOT sellers.

    As a commercial real estate appraiser, I can tell you that time is a function of value. In other words, if you put a high price tag on a car, you'll probably wait an incredibly long time (usually years) before it sells (if ever).

    A seller could respond by saying, "I don't care how long it takes, that's my asking price and I'm in no hurry to sell". That's fine, but his car IS NOT really for sale given that criteria.

    I've not seen your GTO and I'm sure it's very nice, but based on multiple, nationally recognized, classic car valuation guides, $30,000 sounds rather high, unless its the nicest '67 GTO convertible on the planet. If so, then $30K is probably about right. On the other hand, the number of buyers are VERY FEW who want (or can afford) to have the absolutely best car. So, trying to find the guy who'll pay that price may be like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack. It's there, but how long will it take to find him (and for him to find you) is the real issue.

    There's also the issue of an over-improved car and perhaps an analogy can be drawn from buying a house. Let's a say there's one vacant lot in an established residential neighborhood where the homes sell between $125,000 and $200,000 - without exception. Then, suppose someone buys that vacant lot and constructs a home that costs him $400,000 to build (including his land cost). Then, the day it's finished, he put's a "for sale" sign in the front yard. Now, what's that house worth? Not, $400,000, I guarantee you that. Did this guy make an over-improvement? You bet. Most buyers may be willing to pay somewhat of a premium for this house, but not much. So, the seller is going to take a major hit in order to sell it - unless he waits several years for the market to catch up to his asking price. Same thing with classic cars. There's only a handful of buyers who are willing to pay for the very best.

    Now, some could argue that houses are more of a commodity item whereas classic cars are less plentiful and that's true to some degree. But, spend an afternoon surfing the net and you'll find dozens of '67 GTO convertibles listed for sale. Some good, some bad. But, they all give buyers a variety of buying opportunities to pursue if they so choose. Plus, as a seller of a classic car, you're competing with cars that provide everyday transportation, because let's face it, a '67 GTO is a "want", not a "need". Believe me I know, because I REALLY want one. But, I don't need one as a course of normal, everyday life.

    A seller who takes 5 years to sell his car for a high price will undoubtedly gloat by saying "See, I told you my car was worth $xxx!" I'd respond by saying, "Yeah, it is now." In other words, high priced cars have to wait for the market to catch up and that could take several years based on a variety of economic factors.

    Take my views for what they're worth. It's just that when I hear a seller saying a buyer will HAVE TO pay top dollar for my car, then I really have to question whether that car is actually for sale or if the seller is looking to fund his 401K (there's a big difference between the two). Remember, a car is always worth more to the seller than it is the buyer.

    Anyway, that's my two cents ;-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,279
    The market is dictated by the bulk of verified sales, not by a few very high or very low ones. So even if one could point to a very high selling price, this does not by itself establish a new level for the car.

    Since GTOs are bought and sold in large numbers, the market as reflected by most decent price guides is pretty accurate I think. Of course, if the car is a show car and an impeccable, cost no object accurate restoration, the price guides go out the window. But this level of perfecton is so rare that you only see such a car occasionally at a national show, and a show car of this quality would never, ever be driven beyond the trailer and back.

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    Anyone have any experience using the Hurst Dual-Gate shifters (commonly referred to as his/her shifters) in automatic '67 to '69 GTO's?

    How well do they work and how durable are they?

    Finally, does manually shifting have any detrimental effects on the transmission's longevity?

    Surely, there's gotta be a bunch of folks out there who've used these shifters. Let's hear from one and all!
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    ...well, I'll confess to having done it before, and while I know it can't exactly be good for the car, I haven't destroyed a transmission yet by doing it!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I don't really know but I doubt that manually shifting a Turbo 400 is going to shorten its life. They'll last well over 100k even with routine abuse. All you're doing by shifting manually is raising the shift point from say 4400 rpm to maybe 4800. By that time the engine sounds like it's going to grenade (it's not) and most people nudge the selector.

    I never had a his and hers. The Judge had a column shift and the few times I drag raced it I just let it do its thing. Just point and shoot, as they say. It shifted at 5000 rpm, a few hundred over its horsepower peak, and that worked just fine.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    ...I used to do it with my Darts, and I'm guessing that it really didn't do much harm to those old Torqueflites, either. Now Grandma's '85 LeSabre, on the other hand ;-) Well, it does have about 155K on it, and never even a hint of tranny trouble, so maybe it's tough enough, too...
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    I've been casually watching the bidding on what appears to be a nice '67 GTO convertible (red, automatic w/out A/C) listed on eBay by the same dealership I've eluded to before. This is a different (probably better) GTO than the two that didn't sell when the high bid of $20K +/- was rejected by the seller. A link to this current auction is provided below.


    The bidding has been stalled at $25,100 for a few days and there's a couple more days left.


    Any bets as to how high the bidding will go and whether or not the reserve will be met? $25,100 is probably pretty close to the market ceiling which I'm guessing is around $27K.


    I'll post the results when the auction has ended. Unfortunately, I'm relegated to a side line observer and not one of the "players" involved. :-(


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=601621822&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1013112079&indexURL=0&rd=1

  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    That car looks pretty dang nice. Just a few comments. That black interior will fry you on a hot day. Rally I wheels are a rare sight on a '67, correct but rare. Most '67s have the Rally IIs if they have Rallys. They're nice but were used for years and really common.

    Shifty, a guy at my office is seriously looking for a musclecar convertible. I've told him he should have someone like a car appraiser go with him. Could you do that or do you know someone?
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    I've always liked them better than Rally IIs, perhaps cuz you don't see them all the time. Rally IIs, unfortunately, were thrown on just about every Pontiac (optionally or otherwise) from their '67 introduction til the early 80s.

    My dream GTO would be a 66 or 67 convertible, gold with gold interior and Rally I's. Oh yeah, with power windows, tilt and a 4 speed.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Rally Is were available through 1968. I don't think I've ever seen them on a '68 except in the Pontiac sales brochure, which tells me they were old fashioned by then. The IIs looked like the typical "mag" wheel of the time, hence their appeal. The Is are cleaner and would probably look good on a '68 but they're so strongly identified with the '65 and '66 that no one would believe they were correct.

    More than you ever wanted to know about a wheel.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,279
    speedshift---yep, if he's in the Bay Area I can help him; otherwise he might check the "appraisers' section of Hemmings. Of course, some of these appraisers are good and some are knyckleheads. Mostly you have to watch out for incorrect cars or bogus cars (Lemans into GTO) or chop jobs and mondo bondo sleds, etc.

    That GTO on auction is right on the money. The guy should let it go for that if the price doesn't go higher. That is a very fair bid. This presumes an outstanding but not 100 point show car.

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  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    He's about fifty miles south of Sausalito. I'll turn him on to you.
  • parmparm Posts: 723
    You'll recall my post # 48 about a red '67 GTO convertible automatic (no a/c) listed for sale on eBay. The auction recently ended at $26,300 and the reserve was not met! Thus, the car apparently didn't sell.


    I predicted $27,000 would take it. Guess we won't know now.


    This is the 3rd GTO in about a month this dealer has listed on eBay in which his reserve wasn't met. Talk about a tough sell! (or tough buy - depending on which side of the table you're sitting)


    These recent eBay non-sales are depressing. My piggy bank won't hold the number of pennies it apparently takes to drive one of these beauties home. :-(


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=601621822&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1013112079&indexURL=0&rd=1

  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Well, sellers can deny market reality only so long. I think the eBay bidding has given you an excellent idea of where the market is. People will only pay what they'll pay, regardless of what sellers are asking. And remember, you're the market. As long as you're an informed, willing and able buyer, your idea of value is close to the mark if not right on it.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    ........there are lots of cars (at all price points) listed on eBay for which the seller will contact the high bidder (regardless of whether or not reserve was met) and make a sale. Lots of eBay sellers are techically 'dreaming' on their price, only to become a bit more realistic when their 'reserve' isn't met. Like a lot of other things, seller would rather sell than hold on to their cars and deal with another month of 'no sales' and bull$hit when all is said and done.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,052
    ...that's how I ended up getting my '79 NYer. It was on E-bay, with a "buy it now" price of $1900. It also had a reserve price, but I don't know what it was. I ended up being the highest bidder, I think for $700, but still below reserve.

    I emailed the guy, and we both agreed on $900.00. I went to pick it up in West VA (about 160 miles away). It was at a dealership lot, and I found a sticker in it under the seat that had "$1650" written on it. Just goes to show that asking prices can be all over the map!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,279
    Asking Prices --"a citizen's exercise of his first amendment rights"

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  • parmparm Posts: 723
    I learned to drive in a '65 Tempest convertible, but that's been over 25 years ago and my memory isn't that fresh.

    Does anyone own a '66-67 GTO? Would appreciate hearing what it's like to live with this car. How well does it drive? How well do all of the pieces and parts work together?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I owned a '66 GTO and two '67s, all hardtops.

    The '66 was a fairly low mile car, two speed AT (not a Powerglide) and base 389/335. Power steering and brakes, very easy to drive and not very involving. Pinged like heck compared to the later goats I owned, I think because of the older cylinder head design.

    My favorite '67 was the HO with 360 hp. Manual quick ratio steering (20:1), manual 9" drum brakes, four speed. Not exactly a sportscar and kind of a handful around town but really communicated and actually handled pretty well, must have had the HD suspension. Very involving car, quick even with 100k (high 14s at around 95 mph), what I and a lot of other people think of as the essence of GTO-ness (Shifty is spitting coffee through his nose right now).

    The other '67 was a very nice cruiser, similar to the '66 but felt more refined even though it had twice the miles. Much better engine (400/335) and transmission (THM 400). Even the interior seemed a little nicer, but the car had been maintained better than the '66 so that might be part of it. Didn't seem all that quick but I also got a ride in a '67 convertible with a strong 428 that also seemed a little sluggish so maybe the automatic steals more hp than I thought. The 180k on my '67 might also have had something to do with it but the engine was still quiet and tight thanks to Marvel Mystery Oil ;-).
  • phillipmphillipm Posts: 32
    In your post #69 you asked about how it is to live with a 67' goat. Here's my experience: I bought a 1967 GTO convertible in 1984 and still own it. 400 cu.in., 335hp, Turbo 400 with the Hurst His/hers dual gate shifter, power steering and brakes(drums on all four),rally I wheels, no air, no power widows, seats, etc. Bucaneer red with parchment interior.Afermarket am-fm radio. This car is NOT a trailer queen and I use it for fair weather and weekend cruises. Not a daily driver and garaged when not being driven. Here are my overall personal observations: the stock motor has great overall low end torque and performance and the Turbo-hydramatic 400 transmission works great with the motor. I use the dual-gate shifter ocassionally but generally let it shift for itself. I'm more of a cruiser than a hard core stop light dragster. I believe it has .336 rear end gears(non-posi) and I get around 15mpg(I do run 91 octane gas) with general street/hwy cruising. The top is down 99% of the time as it's usually nice sunny days when we take it out. The brakes only do a mediocre job of stopping the car. I wish it had front discs. The suspension itself is pretty adequate. I did install 4 gas shocks which was a great improvement over the factory shocks. One thing a passenger usually first comments on is how big this car appears to be. Back in 1967(yes,I did own 2 67's back in 67) this was called an intermediate size auto but boy, it sure looks bigger compared to todays new autos. The other most mentionable facet about this car is how much attention it gets from other drivers and pedestrians. Young people, middle-aged people, and old people usually give appreciative stares and lots of "thumbs-up". The factory dual exhausts give a nice V8 rumble that just can't be duplicated by modern motors. Sorry if I've been too wordy as this my first "post" on this site. You asked, and I've tried to answer in all candidness my personal experiences as a owner and driver of this car for the past 18 years. Been one of the most pleasurable autos I've ever owned in my 56 yrs. of living and I've owned a total of 55 vehicles. Also, has not been a bad investment either as I paid $4,200 for this GTO in 1984 when I bought it from a friend who was living in Atlanta. The odometer shows 89,631 miles but I can't say for certainty if this is correct or not. It's supposed to be but who really knows for sure. If there are any other specifics I can provide about being a 1967 GTO owner, please advise.
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