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GTO values & anything else GTO related

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Comments

  • parmparm Posts: 723
    Thanks. Your post was exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Unfortunately, I became more and more envious with every word I read - particularly with regard to the "nice V8 rumble" from the factory duel exhausts. Very cool.

    I've looked for '67 GTO convertibles that would be comparable to yours and one's worth having seem to be in the $20K+ range which is way more than I want to spend. So yes, I'd say you made a wise investment back in 1984.

    You didn't indicate if your GTO has a tilt steering column (I believe '67 was the first year it was offered on a GTO) so I'm assuming it doesn't. That said, I'd be curious to know how comfortable it is behind the steering wheel - particularly since seat movement is limited strictly to fore and aft adjustment. I'd also be interested to know how comfy the front buckets are.

    Hope to hear more of your comments soon. Keep'em coming!
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    If "V8 rumble" is one of your priorities I can think of cheaper ways to get it than a GTO convertible. A LeMans with a 326 sounds close enough to a GTO for the money.

    My '67 had tilt, not an option with manual steering but someone had installed it. Made all the difference with manual steering since I could position the steering wheel lower to get better leverage. The power steering is so effortless I can't imagine it makes that much difference.
  • phillipmphillipm Posts: 32
    The front buckets in my 67' are the factory original including the parchment colored vinyl upholstery. They are showing wear and some discoloration but I hate to replace this "original" covering with reproduction material. As far as comfort they are comfortable but lack side bolstering and aren't very supportive like newer sports buckets are. I don't have the tilt column but there is plenty of room for my plump 6', 210 lb. body behind the steering wheel.The longest trip I've taken in this car was about 300 miles(5 hrs.) and my butt stayed comfortable for the whole trip. Went through some hilly country in East Tn. and the motor wanted to run a bit warm, around 210 degrees, so I'm ordering a fan shroud for it from Ames. Hope this solves that problem. Thanks for your input and if I can answer anything else let me know.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    Tilt was an option with even the first GTOs ('64), IIRC. GM introduced the tilt wheel in '63, though I don't think it was available on all models (I've seen them mostly on full-sizers from '63). It became much more widely available in smaller GM models in '64-65.
  • lfloreslflores Posts: 1
    I'm trying to get info to settle a bet. I need to find out the overall length of both the 64 and 68 GTOs. One says the 64 is longer and the other says the 68 is longer. Does anyone know the answer for either or both? Or where I could find it? Please help. Dinner is riding on this bet. Thanks!
  • carnut4carnut4 Posts: 574
    According to the Standard Catalog of American Cars, the 64 was 203 inches long, and the 68s were 200.7 inches long. The 65s, however, were 206.2 inches long.
  • badgerpaulbadgerpaul Posts: 219
    I think '68 was the year that GM first had two different wheelbases for it's A bodies. The 2-doors had a 112" and the 4 doors were 116". I think before that they all rode on a 116" wheelbase.
  • atlanta4atlanta4 Posts: 51
    I'm in the market for a restored '67 GTO, preferably a convertible (a concession to my wife). Colors and options (although I'm partial to Tyrol blue and Regimental red) are less important than condition. I've read this entire discussion including your posts regarding advertised -vs- actual condition. This and many of the other posts have been very interesting and informative and have forced me to look at the ads for these cars from an objective, rather than an emotional perspective.
    I'm looking for a car to drive occasionally and not a 'trailer queen' but want a very well restored, documented, #2 (by your definition)car.
    Fortunately, I can afford what I'm looking for but I don't want to throw money away on an overpriced, overvalued car that a dealer or private seller is misrepresenting.
    I have owned a Ford muscle car (1970 Ford Torino Cobra/429) previously and did a considerable amount of mechanical and engine work on the car myself, so I don't consider myself a total neophyte. I also did a lot of research on that car after I bought it that came in handy with restoration and being knowledgable when dealing with potential buyers.
    I have always been fond of '66/'67 GTO's but the relatively small amount of personal knowledge I have puts me at a distinct disadvantage in dealing with sellers of cars in this price range.
    I'm willing to pay a fair price for the car I want but would feel more comfortable having a reputable appraiser objectively evaluate the car.
    I'm sure I can find an appraiser in my area (Atlanta) by looking in Hemmings or a similar publication. But in your post #52 you cautioned that some are good and some are 'knuckleheads'. How do you tell the difference? Should they have some sort of credentials? Lastly, what is the going rate for an appraisal these days?
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,032
    Yes, appraisers should have credentials, you bet, and should also be able to refer you to other clients he/she has worked for. An appraisal should cost between say $150-275 I would think, depending on what he has to do. Even more if you want to get down to checking manifold casting numbers and differential housing stampings, etc.

    Buying a car like this successfully is usually a team effort between you, the appraiser and the seller. You do your homework, the appraiser does his job, and the seller provides all the accurate documentation to support his claims.

    Bottom line, if you don't see factory documentation, original papers, build sheets, body tags, warranty plates, etc., you will never know if you have the real thing and neither will an appraiser.

    I never guarantee authenticity when I appraise cars like this, because it is so easy to fake them.

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  • atlanta4atlanta4 Posts: 51
    Thanks for the sage advice. I bought a couple of GTO books several years ago when I was in the muscle car market and am beginning to review them to refresh my memory. The engine/body codes, etc haven't changed so that information should still be valid. I want to have in mind what I'm looking for numbers wise so I will know it when I see it.
    Do you recommend a particular price guide book over others? Previously I have bought several and averaged each grade/rating as a rough guide to what I was looking for. As I mentioned, condition is more important to me than other aspects as I plan to enjoy the car by driving it.
    That being said, aside from the factory build sheet, what would you consider the most reliable piece of written documentation to have with regard to the cars authenticity? Is the PHS documentation considered genuine in the absence of other documents?
    I plan to contact the local GTOAA chapter to see if I can get the name of a local appraiser to assist me. Also, the Fraser-Dante dealership is relatively close to where I live and they have three '66 & '67 GTO's advertised in traderonline and their website now that I can see in their showroom. The silver '67 convertible and the burgundy '67 HO hardtop look nice but their prices seem way out of line with the discussion here considering that neither seems to be a #1 'museum quality' car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,032
    You must remember that YOU determine the market, not the asking prices of dealers or the price guides.

    Unlike new cars, older cars need to be evaluated one by one, up front and personal. I would suggest that you pick a price you can live with and then negotiate car by car until you get the car you want at the price you want.

    You cannot successfully negotiate unless you can get up and WALK at any time. And to walk successfully you need a budget firmly in place.

    The problem with the price guides is that they often do not factor in all the variables of muscle cars. There are so many options, and some are valuable and some mean nothing. It's kind of crazy, the muscle car market. Two identical GTOs, one with buckets and a 4-speed, the other a bench seat automatic, right? And the price differential can be substantial. Kinda nuts, no? The price guides won't show these differences but they are definitely there.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Their '67 HO looks like the one I had, same burgundy over black. Mine was a long way from being a concours winner but it had four speed and quick-ratio manual steering (and tiny drum brakes) and theirs doesn't. Boy does that take me back. They want $34k? I sold mine for $1500 in about 1985.

    Yeah, Shifty's right, a few seemingly small differences in options can make a huge difference in value. It's all about image and dreams. The rare factory performance options that made 5% of the GTOs the world-beaters everyone thinks every GTO is can really jack up the price. This is pretty arcane stuff. I'd get into it slowly and hang around the club members. Don't take everything they say to the bank, but if you hear the same things time after time then at least you're hearing commonly accepted wisdom and that's largely what determines value, at least among the true believers.

    Personally, if I was looking for a GTO driver I wouldn't go for the ultra-rare options. They have nothing to do with the everyday driveability of the car but they certainly do add to the price. I'd look for a clean unmolested original, something that hasn't been "restored" but looks like it might have been treated with some respect.
  • atlanta4atlanta4 Posts: 51
    I've hooked up with a couple people from the local GTO club who seem willing to share their enthusiasm & expertise. They're having a regional show on 4/20 so I should be able to see quite a few cars up close then. That will probably just increase my desire to get one!
  • atlanta4atlanta4 Posts: 51
    Well, the search for GTO nirvana has begun in earnest. I have narrowed it to '66 or '67 and have had the good fortune to hook up with my local GTOAA chapter. The local authorities in the club on these years have national judging experience to back up their sound advice. Doing my own homework (along a healthly dose of skepticism )has also helped me to avoid costly mistakes on some cars that were misrepresented or overrated by the sellers.
    There seem to be a lot more '66's out there but that seems to make sense because there were more produced. The '67 seems to have several design improvements including available factory disc brakes and an improved engine and TH400 automatic trans. Despite that, I kind of like the idea of having a TriPower and there seems to be plenty out there - a lot more than the '67 HO or RA and for less money. I know that some people add TriPower setups to non-factory equipped cars but the authenticity is easy enough to verify if you're careful. The potential downside is that 3 carbs means 3 times the chance of problems with fuel delivery. I would like to be driving it more than fixing it. Does anybody have much experience with TriPower equipped cars? Are they more trouble than the're worth? I enjoy turning wrenches when necessary but nothing is more frustrating than waiting for a clear day to go cruising and having the car cough, spit and blow smoke like a 90 year old with emphysema!
    Any advice, opinions?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Never had trips but I knew people who did and these are really simple, dead reliable Rochester carbs. I think the center carb is a 2GC (C stands for choke) and the outboard two are 2Gs (no choke). The outboard ones also don't have an idle circuit. These are the same carbs that appeared on a gazallion of the General's economy V8s since 1955, so temperamental they're not.

    Put in a good quality rebuild kit (be sure to dunk the parts in parts cleaner) or have a mechanic do it. Carbs rebuilt in volume tend to vary in quality. I bought a rebuilt Autolite once that had so many vacuum leaks it sounded like a giant vacuum cleaner.

    In my experience the only thing that wears out is the throttle shaft and I think that can be bushed. I guess you could tweak a casting by overtightening it. If the car isn't driven much a float needle might stick occasionally but that can usually be fixed with a rap on the carb.
  • atlanta4atlanta4 Posts: 51
    Thanks for the experienced advice. I'm not intimidated by the idea of rebuilding the carbs. I rebuilt the carb on my 429 Torino Cobra and the thing ran like a sewing machine when I bolted it on. Maybe it was beginners luck!
    I've got my eye on a couple of cars now & have my technical advisors helping out. Probably will wait till April 15 to see how big a bite Uncle Sam will take out of my car budget first.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,032
    '67 tri-powers are very rare. You may not find one very easily, and if you do, it's probably a fake. But you could get lucky of course. Also, the disc brakes were an option and a '67 may not have them. Even if your '67 didn't have power discs, I'd put them on if possible, since the car is way overpowered for drum brakes.

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  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    '66 is the last year for factory-installed Tri-Power, although I suppose you could have had it dealer-installed on a '67. I'd just assume that every trips on a '67 was bolted on by an owner over the last 35 years unless there's some sort of dealer documentation proving otherwise.

    '67 was the year they went to Quadra-Jet on the base engine, replacing the Carter AFB that had been around since the mid '50s. The Q-Jet was also used on the optional engines, the 360-hp HO and the Ram Air (now known as the Ram Air I, an ultra-rare option). The Q-Jet is good for over 700 cfm while the old AFB was about 600 or so, so I guess they thought they didn't need Tri-Power anymore. Trips may not flow any more than the Q-Jet but the feeling is that it offers better fuel distribution. Also it looks hairier, which is even more important.

    BTW, as far as I know Edelbrock still makes the AFB (under a different name) as part of their Performer package.

    As for brakes, yes, the standard 9" drums are a little short of optimal--about from here to Chicago short. Instant and complete fade is available whenever you need it.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Quick fix for brakes would be the aluminum drums off a '64-? Buick Skylark. They'll bolt on. This might be worth it if 1) you have manual brakes and 2) you're well insured. A conversion to discs requires going to power brakes if you don't have them, not an insurmountable problem but aluminum drums are a lot easier assuming you can still find them.
  • mdm4mdm4 Posts: 33
    I need to buy a fan for my 1964 GTO, it has the original 389, 4 bbl. It currently has a throw back from the 60s flex fan on it. On the highway it starts to run hot. Can anyone tell me what fan will fit from other GMs of that era? You may respond directly to:
    MDM1@WESTCHESTERGOV.COM
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I'm no expert but I don't think the fan is your problem. The fan pulls air through the radiator to cool the coolant going though it and at freeway speeds there's already plenty of air going through the radiator.

    I think I'd have the radiator inspected. It may need to be flushed or rodded or recored. See if it still has a fan shroud. You might also check the belt that drives the water pump and see if it's tight enough--I think you want about 1/2 inch deflection.

    One other thing--unless you're using octance booster it's a fair certainty the engine timing is retarded. That can cause overheating too. Another timing problem would be a bad vacuum advance can.

    If you want to replace the fan, the '69 Pontiac manual lists seven different fans with four, five or seven blades, fixed, flex or clutched, five diameters and two pitches. Obviously they fine tuned the fan to the application. Ordinarily I'd say just go to a wrecking yard and look for a GM fan that looks like what you've got, one that's not bent or chipped. My guess is that the mounting pattern is universal for GM cars, at least through the '60s.

    What axle ratio do you have? How fast is the engine turning on the freeway? Did you just change something on the engine that would create more heat like, for example, bolt on a 6-71 blower?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,032
    I agree with that. I don't think the fan is your problem either, especially since it is running hot on the highway, when airflow is greatest. I'd look elsewhere for your problem.

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  • bodymanbodyman Posts: 23
    For plenty of suggestions on your overheating problem, try www.classicalpontiac.com. Go to the Q&A archives, or post your question. Not to take away from this forum, but there is a lot of GTO/Pontiac knowledge there. BTW, I have a '67 GTO myself, and once owned a '65 convertible, so (in my opinion) I have had two of the best.
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