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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

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  • 1.) they often cause extra stress on other components in the engine, suspension, etc.

    2.) they decrease reliability in many cases(like the turbocharging you mentioned as an example for an SI). So the vaulted reliability rankings of your Honda wouldn't be applicable anymore.

    3.) THEY QUITE OFTEN VOID WARRANTIES if it is determined by the dealer that the modified part caused the problem.

    So, yes you can make the last-in-class 160 hp SI engine more potent, but there is a possiblity of a much bigger price on the other end.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Do you call the GTI a real sports car? If you do you need to get out more.

    Do you really need to ramble about so many different cars to make a point?

    The Civic hybrid gets better MPG than that and doesn't have to be filled up at a truck stop.

    You can't harp about the lack of torque since the SI is only half a second slower to 60 than the GTI. Torque curve is just fine.

    Upgrades don't void warranties. Ask Rick.

    I'll post more later but I'm busy right now.
  • 1.) they often cause extra stress on other components in the engine, suspension, etc.

    2.) they decrease reliability in many cases(like the turbocharging you mentioned as an example for an SI). So the vaulted reliability rankings of your Honda wouldn't be applicable anymore.

    3.) THEY QUITE OFTEN VOID WARRANTIES if it is determined by the dealer that the modified part caused the problem.

    So, yes you can make the last-in-class 160 hp SI engine more potent, but there is a possiblity of a much bigger price on the other end.
  • This was from the vwvortex site referring to the Magnusson Moss Act:

    "The way our laws are written, your rights to use after market parts and upgrades on your car are protected by the Magnusson Moss act, but it is not a guarantee of warranty coverage. Basically the act states that you have a right to use non-original parts on your car and still retain the factory warranty. However, if there is a failure and the manufacturer (VOLVO in this case) can show that the failure was caused by the non-original part, they can deny coverage."

    No the GTI is not a real sport car. It is a "Hot Hatch" for better or worse. I was just pointing out the Honda 4 cylinder engines are incapable of producing torque levels that are comparable to the competition, including VW. My point was that I wouldn't put a black mark on Honda for it, because they excel in other areas.

    Sorry I can get diesel at my local gas station and if you haven't heard diesels are some of the most advanced and efficient powertrains available. Within a decade almost 50% of the cars sold in Europe will be diesels, with hybrids trailing way behind.

    Sorry the SI is 3/4 of a second slower to 60 mph in Motortrend and .7 second slower in Automobile mag.
  • Actually the Mini has the most comprehensize collection of safety features in its class and:

    The MINI Cooper's crashworthiness received the top rating of 'Good' and earned the car a 'Best Pick' designation in the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's December frontal offset crash tests.
    The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's ratings reflect performance in a 40 mph frontal offset crash test into a deformable barrier. Based on the results of this test, the Institute evaluates the crashworthiness of passenger vehicles, assigning each vehicle a rating of good, acceptable, marginal, or poor.

    MINI's strong performance comes just weeks after the MINI Cooper earned a 4 star rating in the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) crash test results.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Posts: 1,391
    Jan 03 EuroTuner, page 28

    VDAT e.V. tuning test:

    195/65 r15 with Dunlop SP Sport 200

    225/40r18 with Dunlop SP Sport 9000

    62 mph to 0 mph
    Dry stopping:
    18 inchers stopped shorter by 13.5 feet

    50 mph to 0 mph
    Wet:
    18 inchers stopped shorter by 9.5 feet

    Though...I'm a little skeptical...due to different tires. I'm fine with the tire sizes...
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    But bumpworthy kinda pitiful as I linked. So if you don't total it it will suffer more damage than average.

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/839767.asp

    " And on the front angle test, the car’s frame is actually twisted — just that fix is $1,489.

    “That’s excessive by any definition,” says O’Neill. “We shouldn’t be damaging frames in five mile an hour impacts.”

    The Mini Cooper earns a “marginal” rating."
    Sometime you gotta wonder if we have the same internet.
  • That is too bad about the bumper damage in regards to the Mini. I think the designers probably opted to make passenger saftey the prime concern in this case.

    Reminds me of something though about a European magazine that I have read in the past, "Car" I believe it was. Anyway they had not only depreciation rating for every car, but also insurance ratings too. That way you could easily comparision shop between cars and get a ballpark figure w/o having to bother your insurance company every time. Does anyone publication in the US do this?
  • Too bad the Mini designers couldn't figure out how to make the car safe AND design it well enough not to cause that level of damage in a 5 MPH impact.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    in the same test than the new Accord. About 50% less in expense repair. Actually, I think it could be closer to 75% since Audi or German car parts generally cost more than the Japanese or American counterparts.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    There are enough sources of bad news on the GTI that I don't have to stray.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    if it has the nice rims, lowered suspension, tints, exhaust etc.

    Haha.. just having too much time at work on a Friday.
  • Try this:

    If they were priced the same, would you take an SI or a GTI?

    If you like the GTI better, how much more would you pay to get a GTI?

    If you like the SI better, how much more would you pay to get an SI?

    I'm not sure, but in the real world it looks like it takes 2-7 more K$ to get a GTI. Were it me spending 337 bucks, I'd get an RSX-S (even though I'd rather have hatch).
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    Assuming both cars will be of equal reliability (Honda and VW),

    At the same price, I'll take the GTi
    At a higher price, <$20k, I'll take the GTi

    Through carsdirect.com, I can get an 03 GTi 1.8T around $19k compared to $18k for the 03 Si.

    RSX-S can be had for $21k now.

    But since I was looking for a beater for my daily commute, I chose the cheapest car I could live with - 02 Si.

    If I plan on changing car every 2-3 years, I'll get the GTi.

    I made the mistake of selling my very reliable 97 Civic EX when I bought my 01 Audi A4. Putting 18k miles just going to work daily cut my warranty short by a year (4y/50k). And with the quirks in the A4, I know even doing oil changes is going to be expensive. So, I sold it at the end of 2 years.
  • You're assuming equal Honda and VW reliability -

    because you believe that's the case? -or-
    for the sake of argument?

    FWIW (for what it's worth), I took the GTI (and VW in general) off my want list due to reliability concerns (and smaller dealer network). I can't prove or disprove the reliability assumption; I've just made a different one than you have.

    That's good RSX-S price news!
  • Where can you get a $21,000 RSX-S new? carsdirect price is $23,600 and there are NO ads in the paper for RSX's.

    If the cars are priced the same I would take the SI. If the GTI was less and was loaded then I might consider it. Had a cjance to buy a 01 GTI GLX with 20k or so on it for $15,500. It had nice tint and a dealer-installed Neuspeed suspension. Every day I walked past it I went "oooh" which was subsequently followed by "if I only knew I could keep it running". I've never denied the GTI is a nice car. I like the looks, the drive, and the interior. I just can't deal with unknown reliability. And anyone who says VW reliability is not an unknown is just ignoring all the evidence that shows otherwise.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    has a big sign on one of the RSX-S model they have on the showroom with a $21,499 price. An 02 model obviously. TMV on edmunds.com actually shows it as $22,300. So, obviously in the whole US, it is conceivable some people are getting it around $21k and some around $23k.

    In anycase, given your car buying history (anony that is), you shouldn't have problem buying the 20k miles GTI since you change cars in less than a year anyway.

    But an 01 GTi I assume w/ 150HP is probably not comparable to the 160HP Si, if it is me. But we all know how you feel about having too much HP in a little hatchback. The 02 GTi 1.8T onwards has 180HP.

    Also, I'm surprised if the cars, say 02 GTi and 02 Si are priced the same, you'll take the Si but if the GTi was loaded and at the same price, you'll consider it. Keep in mind, the 02 GTi as it is has more than what the Si offers. The only package I see worth upgrading are the 17" rims and ESP. Since we also know how you feel about having too big of a rim on your Si, I assume you'll pass on this option. ESP is only a $230 or so option.

    So, you are saying the 02 GTi w/ ESP BUT even lower than the $16k offering price of the Si, you'll only consider it?? I guess that's why you are a saleswoman. Probably a good one at that if you can convince the VW dealership to load up the GTi and sell it for less than the decontented Si, simply because the Si, in your mind, will be more reliable.

    But what do you have to worry about? You change cars practically every 6 months anyway based on the information gee35coupe offered. And if you buy the GTi new, it'll be long gone before you even use 1/4 of the warranty period, no?
  • From the Automotive Lease Guide's ANNUAL RESIDUAL VALUE AWARDS:

    "Heading the list this year is Volkswagen of America with the Volkswagen Brand winning the Industry Brand Residual Value Award. Volkswagen also received the award for the Midsize Car Segment with the Volkswagen Passat."........

    "American Honda Motor Co., Inc. received several segment awards, including: the Acura MDX for the Compact SUV Segment; the CRV for the Sub Compact SUV Segment; and the Odyssey for the Minivan Segment, a repeat winner for the past four years."
  • I wouldn't buy a 0 mile VW .. why would I buy one with 20,000 miles. I did consider it while I was inside the car but once out I came back to my senses. The GTI is a nice car BUT I want a nice car that's reliable. I can't guarantee that I will get a reliable GTI but from my past experience with Honda chances are I will get a reliable SI. And even if I would get rid of it after 6 months to a year I don't want to spend that year in the shop or spend it wishing I had bought the Honda instead.

    I kinda feel this way about it ...
    17" wheels: $1000
    Springs: $240
    Good set of speakers: depends on my e-bay luck
    Knowing your car will start every morning and all of the windows will go up and down: Priceless
  • From the Automotive Lease Guide's ANNUAL RESIDUAL VALUE AWARDS:

    "Heading the list this year is Volkswagen of America with the Volkswagen Brand winning the Industry Brand Residual Value Award. Volkswagen also received the award for the Midsize Car Segment with the Volkswagen Passat."........

    "American Honda Motor Co., Inc. received several segment awards, including: the Acura MDX for the Compact SUV Segment; the CRV for the Sub Compact SUV Segment; and the Odyssey for the Minivan Segment, a repeat winner for the past four years."
  • The ins. adjuster has promised a valuation on my stolen '99 SI Monday. (They lie though, LOL.)

    Anybody wanna guess what value they will set? 42,500 miles and great shape.

    Wouldn't it be nice if they go with TMV?
  • I would say somewhere around $12,000. It's hard to say. But don't take their first offer if it's not fair. Produce pricing reports from Edmunds, KBB, etc to show what a replacement would cost you.
  • Both Edmunds And Kelly BB put the retail on a '99 SI with fairly low millage at over 15K, a little higher than 4 banger GTI, same year and same condition.

    I'm pleased, personally and in the context of our discussion.
  • vadpvadp Posts: 1,025
    I wonder about the '02 Si.
    It looks like it won't be able to hold its value as much as the previous years models.
  • You probably won't get retail. You will get whatever they determine fair market value is for your car or the cost of a replacement vehicle. I don't think it will be retail but if they add sales tax in you might be very close.
  • Interesting to speculate on, given the discounts on MSRP. I figgure it depends a lot on what comes out for '04 and '05.
    If some real fun stuff doesn't hit the floors, it's possible we could drive an '02 and sell at at profit 2 years down the pike, LOL. Not likely, granted; but even the possibility is pretty rare.
  • 204meca204meca Posts: 366
    More fuel for the fire -- gotta keep the entertainment coming! I don't recall anyone refering to Edmund's consumer ratings of the GTI & Civic. Owners give the 02 GTI an average rating of 9.4 (01 is similar) vs. 8.6 for 02 Civic (admittedly all civic models, not just Si). Also Epinion owners rate their GTIs very high, more so that Civic Si owners. Are these owners on to something?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Even I would buy a VW if they had 1 year leases. The VW's I have driven would have all earned a 10. Except for the one with the blown transmission.

    Additionally if you take off the 1 rating of 1 from the person at the end who said they "rejected the car"(how do you do that?) the Civic has a 9.6 which is more than likely more indicative of the car...
    The actual SI only had 16 reviews.
This discussion has been closed.