Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

1141517192026

Comments

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=563&CatID=1

    Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout.


    2001 Sporty Segment- winner is VW GTI


    quote- Volkswagen models continue to do well in the study, with the Beetle setting the APEAL standard for compact cars every year since its introduction in 1998. The Jetta ranks highest for the third year in a row in the entry midsize car segment, and the GTI ranks most appealing in the sporty car segment.


    2001 winners in compact segment were VW Beetle and VW Golf.


    In midsize VW Jetta


    VW's are recognized for design and execution as well as being recognized for being below average in quality.


    Where is Honda in this list? Only the Odyssey is present.

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Didn't give not one bit of relavant information.
    The 2001 information you quoted is not U.S. information since VW only sold 400,000 or so total units last year here acording to my link including numbers with Audi. Who is the one with the false information?

    You are right VW is at the bottom since it begins with V. But it is at least number 23. Is that much better? I wouldn't have mentioned that.

    The nameplate Golf has been around since the Rabbit. Until this year it was the best selling car in Europe. Peugeot took care of that though. Our Rabbit was called the Golf in Europe. In fact the Golf still has the rear twist beam suspension used in the Golf/Rabbit from the 70's.

    GM sold that many total cars but they also comprise how many marques? At least 6.

    Yes Honda IS better in the U.S. than VW.

    Honda is also experiencing record sales. In fact if you would read the chart again it would show you Honda is UP 3% while VW is DOWN about the same amount. Considering the percentages though 3% of Honda's figure is much more impressive.

    Like I said in my last post... I would leave this one alone.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Edmunds shows $0.35 mile for Si and $0.39 for GTI.

    Is all the extra equipment that is standard on the GTI worth $600 a year?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I think Daewoo also won one of those. Great company to be in there.

    VW is also present on another study...
    Consumer Reports 2003 Buyers Guide
    Worst Used Cars: Volkswagen New Beetle
    Used cars to Avoid:Jetta 4 cylinder 99-00
    New Beetle 98-00
    Passatt 98

    Notice Honda's dealerships near the top.
    Honda's dependability near the top of any survey.
    Especially JD Power long term survy.

    Even if the equipment were worth it. The peace of mind you get with Hondas outweighs heated mirrors. Available in Canadian SiR's.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    If CR told you to buy a Yugo would you buy one? The information you posted was as relevant as the information I posted. MyVWLemon WAHHH..LOL I can post links to some really mad Odysey owners also.

    How about explaining what CR or JD Power reliability ratings mean real world. For example if the Si was rated at 100 problems per 100 vehicles and GTI at 200 then one more problem would be experienced. The rating would be twice as bad for one problem. Big deal!

    GTI does offer more content than Si. It is more expensive though.

    The only thing you want to discuss is reliability. The fact is that Honda is better. Instead of discusing content or perhaps the views of automotive press the only other thing you want to harp on is sales numbers. Who cares? If I am driving a Si or GTI I care I about enjoyment of the car not if 10 other people bought the same model.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Hypotheticals in a debate. How grade school.

    First year Odysseys had issues. VW {insert model here} has issues even though the car is several years old. The Beetle is a nightmare.

    In the real world a car that has very few complaints and a history of steller performance shows that the cars with several complaints and a trail on online horror stories should be avoided. With VW products you don't have only one source that says not to buy one, there are several.

    Let's say one of the Golf "features" was a gold dispenser, it would do you no good if it didn't work when you needed it.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Since GTI and Golf are nearly the same.

    I owned a 2001 Golf for two years. During the time I had to make two unscheduled trips to dealer for problems. The problem was broken window regulators. The window regulators were redesigned for 2003 and are being replaced free of charge by VW on all affected models that are prior to 2003. So two times in two years.

    For my 2002 Si I have 2,000 miles on it. As of next week it will have required two visits to the dealer for problems. Twice in two months.

    My personal experience so far is nothing to impress with Honda.

    The VW dealer is a real pain in the butt though. Honda dealer is very pleasant.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I've shared my personal experience with both current Si and curren model Golf/GTI platform. You asked for real world and not hypothetical and now it is posted. Can you share real world experience? Or is it all hypothetical and just what you have read here and there?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I'm sure the average SI owner is a much happier puppy than the average GTI one. Just as with the A/C "glitch" there will be issues that some people need addressed. Especially with the SI since many of them sat for months without being sold. I'm thinking of getting a Honda Accord EX-L stick. The one I want hasn't even been built yet. I'm gonna meet the truck at the dealer. Our current Si was months old when we bought it. Although ours was perfect (both of them) I'm sure there are some which need adjustment.

    But check the VW complaint boards. Those are problems. When you factor in that they sell far fewer VW's than Hondas you have to worry about your chances of getting a good one.

    Anony is my fiance. We have had 2 2000 Si's and 2 2002 Si's. My 2000 runs great at 36K. And her first one was totalled. No return trips to the dealer for neither.
  • revkarevka Posts: 1,750
    but let's keep it civil. A few posts have been deleted here in the last day, because they were not within our Town Hall guidelines.

    To clarify: It's okay to criticize a vehicle or an idea, but we draw the line when it comes to bashing people/participants that don't share the same opinion... or drive the same make as you. Let's start over now on a friendlier note. Thanks!

    Revka

    Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Like Civic. But with an L.
    Revka did you delete an anony post from last night?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    The thing is that I come in contact with 30+ people locally and 1,000's for the last few years that own VW Golf, Jetta, NB and Passat. The majority of them and I mean nearly all of them are happy with their VW's. The one's that do have problems do not hide problems either. The people that leave VW like me almost always have problems that are mainly caused by the dealer and not the car itself. Some of the dealerships are just terrible. The problem boards here at Edmunds or anywhere else represent a very, very small % of owners. Take for example the GTI/Si discussion and you will see it is the same 10-20 people for the most part that are participating.

    GTI is a very nice car and the Si is a very nice car. I like both of them. Unfortunately there are too many people that have "I will never by brand X" or "I will never buy a car that is German or Japanese" attitudes that only try attack the vehicles on this basis rather than compare the models based on their features and capabilities.

    GTI is turbo and Si is naturally aspirated. Why not discuss this instead of JD Power and CR?

    I sold cars for a few years and the customers were more interested in the color and payment than anything else.
  • hamproofhamproof Posts: 241
    I've given up trying to talk anything w/ gee35coupe and anony. Both of them really worship Honda like a cult.


    At least we are objective when it comes even to the cars that we own ourself. We do see the good and the bad in all cars. No matter what you say, you'll never convince the two of them that their beloved Honda is not prefect. At least we have owned the Germans and the Japaneses. And I don't think either of them have ever owned a German marquee. They might have heard or read about the problems.


    I say just save your breath and let them both worship Honda. At least they are not against us ;)



    Pro: The H in front of the car - that should mean impeccable realibity and safety


    Cons:

    - Crappy tires in the wet/snowy conditions

    - Defective AC system

    - Lousy gas mileage (around 22mpg - all highway driving 60mph roundtrip) that hopefully will get better as this is my second tank of gas (note: same gas station, Mobil, that I use to fill up for my previous 01 A4. Averaging 28mpg in the A4)

    - Seat belts to far behind to reach in my driving position

    - Interior of the car starting to creak in the cold over bumpy roads (not noticable if the radio is on)

    - Whinny transmission when in reverse. Went out w/ colleague and freak the living daylights out of her when she heard it. Had to explain that it is a FEATURE of Honda. It is really loud when radio if off and no other traffic around. But it is a Honda feature, like the defective AC System

    - Dash lighting is poor. Orange color makes it hard to read around dusk time

    - More to come

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    I just like a good debate. And it's too easy to pick apart the VW with facts. All of the "problems" you have with your car Hamproof aren't at all.

    A/C was designed that way. If you don't like it you should have bought something else. A problem is a malfunction. You A/C performs as designed. You just don't like the way Honda designed it.

    Michelin tires are known as some of the best quality tires on the market. I'm sure the "average" comsumer will disagree with you. Do you think the 17" tires on the VW will perform better in the snow? I doubt it.

    Gas mileage gets better after the break in. You car is still new. Not quite in the position to judge it.

    Seat belts? Shoulda bought a different car. that's the way they designed em. Not a problem.

    Cold creaks are normal. Check other forums all cars do it. It's cold ya know.

    All Honda trannies whine in reverse. They designed it that way. Not a problem. It's the design. Honda is the gold standard of FWD manual tranmissions.

    Dash lighting is the same as it was when you bought the car. The way they designed it.

    It really sounds like you bought the wrong car if you think all these are problems. Not a single one is out of line with any other 2002-2003 SI that you would be able to purchase. In fact the only "problem" that isn't shared with other Hondas is possibly the dash lighting since it varies from model to model.

    It really sounds like you bought the wrong car since you really have no "problem" that any other SI owner has. Except other owners recognise them as the "features" that they were designed to be..

    I've known people with VW products too. Let's just say that's why I would never own one. But they do drive great.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Are sparsely populated...All surveys agree with the boards. There's no denying VW's have log-term quality issues.. And when you consider how few cars VW sells it gets even uglier.

    I saw a Yugo last week. It was clean and ran well from where I saw it. If that one guy has never had a problem with his Yugo would you take his word for it? Or would you find other sources of information? ALL information sources regarding VW's say DON'T BUY A VW!!!!! If they have any info at all since the sample is so small.

    No point having features if you can't use them. The Daewoo had features galore but look what happened there. Slammed on the reliability front and no one cared.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Just to show other sources.


    Features do you no good when you are in a loaner car because yours is in the shop.


    The GTI doesn't sell..Period. They don't give em away because they know better than to send them here. If the GTI sells on it's merits I guess so does the regular Civic. The Golf has NO merits without the GTI is what you are saying huh? A total of 30,000 unit a year pales in comparison to the Civic. And since the Civic is such a "tin can" it's a wonder why they can sell over 10 TIMES as many of them as they do Golfs. Even with all the standard features.


    Still stuck on the residual huh. I don't lease so it doesn't matter to me. And few people buy VW's so I guess it wouldn't matter much to anyone else.


    But the Accord and Civic sell 800,000 units a year and still have stellar resale. That speaks louder than a car few people want new.


    But as usual a bunch of personal anecdotes with no credible backing.


    Here's a couple links.

    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4042

    Survey scores

    1. Lexus 169

    2. Toyota 146

    3. Saturn 144

    4. BMW 138

    5. Honda 132

    6. Hyundai 132

    7. Acura 129

    8. Volvo 126

    9. Mitsubishi 122

    10. Kia 121

    11. Nissan 120

    12. Porsche 118

    13. Mercedes-Benz 117

    14. Subaru 116

    15. Audi 115

    16. Suzuki 115

    17. Mazda 113

    18. GMC 112

    19. Infiniti 112

    20. Cadillac 110

    21. Chevrolet 110

    22. Saab 108

    Industry average 108

    Below average (in alphabetical order)

    Buick

    Chrysler

    Dodge

    Ford

    Isuzu

    Jeep

    Lincoln

    Mercury

    Oldsmobile

    Pontiac

    Volkswagen

    Daewoo, Hummer, Jaguar, Land Rover and Mini were not ranked due to small sample sizes.

    Wheres's VW? Oh yeah at the bottom.


    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4024

    Where does VW rank??? Oh yeah near the bottom.


    If I were a VW owner I would leave this one alone. Proven sub-par reliability, proven sub-par resale (compared to Honda), and proven sub-par dealer network.


    204 Meca you want to know why there are so many supposedly superior GTI's for sale? Maybe this link'll give a hint.


    http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/cgi-bin/frames.cgi?0832

    or

    http://www.planetfeedback.com/sharedLettersList/0,2941,104963-16-0-0-20-60-fb_date-desc,00.html

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    You posted your opionion and not facts. And you posted the same post again. Why? I am not going to repost my response to your post.

    It is disappointing that you will not move beyond the sales number and reliability statistics to compare the drivability, performance and features of the GTI and Si.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    All Hamproof's "problems" are personal issues he has with the basic deign of the car and should have been addressed in the test drive.

    There are several relibility surveys that agree with the complaint boards. They say VW's are problematic. That is not an opinion. I've shown it to be fact.

    Daewoo had many features but is no longer in business. It takes more than a lot of features to be a success in the U.S. Fact.

    The post was deleted so I removed the offending portion and reposted it.

    Another fact there is that the VW has a very poor dealership network. Honda doesn't. Fact. Advantage Honda again.

    Just quit.
  • I have driven many VW's. Almost bought a 2000 1.8T Jetta when they first came out. You know what? I came home, read about VW and all of their horror stories and then remembered the one Jetta I drove where the sunroof and cruise wouldn't work, then I remembered the 97 GTI (driven in 98) whose transmission would barely go into 1st, then I thought about my coworker who had just bought a Jetta and the windows stopped working, and then I decided to keep my 99 Accord with 30,000 miles on it. VW's do drive like crazy, I have no problem saying that. If that were the only consideration then the Jetta/GTI might stand more of a chance to be in my driveway. But a car can drive great but it really doesn't do you any good if you are worried about the next thing that will break on it or the only driving you get to do is sitting in the car while it's on the back of a tow truck or you only get to drive it to the dealer and back.

    Opinions are somebody saying "my GTI drives better" or "my SI looks better". Facts are defined as this "a piece of information presented as having objective reality
    - in fact : in truth" Objective reality is what surveys like JD Powers and Consumer Reports provide to us. The info is there for us to look at and make our own decision. Some people are swayed by the way the VW or Honda may drive, some people might be swayed by the number of buttons, but the data that these sources provide isn't dependent on any of those factors. Owner's respond with their problems and that's where the rankings come from. So if you don't like your car's place on the totem pole complain about your fellow owners and don't shoot the messenger.
  • meibfmeibf Posts: 1
    I happened to pass by this board and saw the ongoing discussion about VW's quality. What interests me is that how the same product enjoys completely different image across Atlantic. In Europe, (I lives in Belgium), VW, especially Golf, is the symbol of quality and reliability.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/car_reviews/main_review.asp?model_id=749


    But it normally is viewed as conservative, not so fun to drive, for example, compared with Ford.

This discussion has been closed.