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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

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Comments

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    "My car's more reliable than your car" become the hot topic of debate amoungst sports (or sporty) car fans? Jeez!

    Next it will be, "my key fob is cooler than your key fob!"
  • I have read all your posts and I know more about the GTI and the SI than I did an hour ago. Thanks guys for th ewealth of information. I really love the Golf GTI and it has been my dream car since I was a kid in Algeria; however, the SI seems to be getting a lot of pros. Is Honda better than VW when it comes to hatchbacks or is it a matter of taste ? Although, I worked at a VW dealership as I was going to college and people had a lot of problems with them ( way back in 1996). I shoulodnt be talking really because I am leasing a 99 Alero, I hate that car.Thank god the lease is over soon. Should I get a GTI VR6, Honda SI, a VR6 GTI, a civic EX ? Do you guys agree with me that american made cars are terrible ?

    Go Steelers!!!
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    I think that small domestic cars have typically been after thoughts of the manufacturers and therefore crappy. But I think that's starting to change. Despite what some here think, the Focus is making inroads in the small market and Chevy should soon (finally!) be killing the Cavalier and bringing over a new Opel/Vauxhall design. Neon I understand is going to be replaced by a joint Mitsubishi/DC design. So at least changes are a foot. But I can understand people being hesitant to buy a small domestic.
  • I would appreciate it if anyone can give me some input on my above post , and can somebody tell me what is soft suspension and what is best for a car to have, hard or soft sus ?
    thanks again!
  • i dont owe you can apology because they are not all coming out of england. i work at a dealership. i get letters directly from honda...can you say the same? and to do you one better a have a friend whos a writer at a vw dealership. and you know what? he complains to me about the cars and the problems he encounters everyday. im not trying to have a battle here. you made a statement...i was pointing out that it is not entirely true. and your right...magazines have their own opinions we dont always agree with. but statistics and one persons opinion are completely different things. statisticly....hondas have been and up until this very day. have always been considered more reliable. but like seminole_kev said...reliable sisnt everything. depends on what you want a car for. now the real question is...what do youlook for when you get a car? and is reading really believing?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Exactly where other than Swindon, England will the US version of Civic Si be manufactured? Please tell me how many different assembly locations there will be for the 12,000 units that are expected to be produced in 2002.
    What I stated is true, you do owe me (and Honda) an apology, and I have a question for you, are you old enough to legally drink?
    About your VW service writer friend...I hope your friend is not the one I got in trouble with VWoA last fall because they did not know the warranty program and they lied to me, and I called VWoA on the spot, it was entertaining as the writer got chewed out by VWoA as I watched and listened.
    VW is improving it's quality and it's dealer network, new dealership facilities, and improved results or else. Honda is actually diverting Civic production from Ohio in order to manufacture their new truck/suv, so tell me where the Civic Si is going to be manufactured other than Swindon.
    And feel free to scan your honda letters and post the links here, I'll be waiting for your proof.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Have been designed exclusively for European market at Honda's R&D center in Germany, and will be manufactured only in England. That means, that Japan and America will get their supply of Type-R/Si/SiR etc. from Europe.

    Said that, if anybody really thinks about quality slack due to country of origin, think again.

    And moparbad, don't make age an issue when discussing things.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Age is not an issue? Posting in an immature manner such as one of the previous contributors (I work at Honda LOL) is usually a signal that the person posting is young. Honda is targeting the youth market age 16-25 with the Si, VW targets the young buyer with it's GTI and Jetta, and both VW and Jetta have younger buyers overall than many of their competitors. Age is an issue when discussing vehicles, age is an issue in driving style, age is an issue in insurance premiums, age is an issue as to when you are allowed to drive, age affects income, etc..
    Saying that age is not an issue when discussing automobiles is ridiculous.
  • revkarevka Posts: 1,750
    It's okay to take issue with another participant's statement, however our Town Hall Agreement requires that this is is to be done with civil and friendly debate.

    In other words, it's okay to attack an idea, but it's not okay to make personal jabs (or heated remarks) towards other members for their opinions. Feel free to email me if you have any question/comments about this.

    And now back to the subject of the Honda Civic vs the VW GTI. Thanks for your participation. ;-)

    Revka
    Host
    Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    moparbad:
    Yes, every car is launched for a targeted audience, hence demographics. Age, sex, income whatever. Good point but only as long as we're discussing cars.
  • They're here (port of entry in Baltimore, actually). Check out the pics:


    http://www.vtec.net/news/items/959.html


    I missed the age dispute, but I'm a 30-year-old professional and I'd love a Civic Si.

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    eludwig- very cool, thanks for posting the link. The Si sure does look different, will take some getting used to. And the black looks good but whatever that pea soup color is named I have I new name for it, how about mucus?
    All you missed regarding the "age dispute" is than another member disagrees with my statement that the Si will be made in England and I questioned the age of that member, the assertion was that the member works at Honda and the Si will be made in US, Japan, and England.
    Be nice to be able to drive the Si soon and see how it is in person.
  • Moparbad, I'm not a fan of the gold color either. I like silver, especially with the black interior. My black Accord is just too hard to keep clean to go that route again.

    Regarding the GTI vs. Civic Si, I'm guessing that the deep sloping hood and rally shifter of the Si will inspire a more go-cart-like feeling than the GTI. And I like that : )
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I'm guessing that the deep sloping hood.
    That is something I love about NSX, the immediacy to the asphalt gives a different feel.
  • shov6shov6 Posts: 177
    ...apparently has a test in their newest issue (March) comparing the Si, the GTI, and the SVT. I hear that the SVT won, and the Si was the slowest of the bunch. Someone posted on this board that they expected the Si to be "in the sixes" in the 0-60 dash... I think they will be gravely disappointed in what it REALLY does (over 8 seconds). The article is certainly worth a read, and should be on newsstands now (although not MINE unfortunately).

    On a related note, the January issue of Automobile has a similar test, but they throw in the Mazda MP3 and the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V (say THAT one five times fast). Automobile came up with much better handling numbers for the Si (theirs had the 17" wheels) than C&D, but the acceleration numbers were pretty much on par. To sum up Automobile's recommendations, they placed the SVT first, and what was a tossup for second between the GTI and the Si was decided in favor of the GTI on the basis of its' nicer appointments. The MP3 and the Nissan brought up the rear.

    -SHOV6
    My key fob isn't as nice as YOUR key fob :)
  • riopelleriopelle Posts: 132
    The Si was the slowest 0-60 because it tops out at 56 in 2nd gear, requiring another shift to get to 60, unlike the other two. It beat the ZX3 to 30 and matched it in the 5-60 street start. It's a matter of gearing. But it couldn't touch the GTI in straight performance, that turbo is a gem. Also noteworthy - the GTI had optional 17" wheels, the Si had 15"s. If the comparsion was apples to apples (ie the GTI had it's standard 15"s, or the Si had optional 17"s) the difference between the two would have been more "true". The Si could use more torque, but it's a much better handler than the GTI.
  • 759397759397 Posts: 79
    The Honda has a proven track record in that dept. However, I have a 1997 Jetta GLX that has had only minor issues in the 65k miels I have had it. No squeaks, no rattles, no major failures, no minor failures, no problems with the service dept. etc.

    It is a little more quirky than my old Integra but the unreliable issue is a little blow out of proportion. It still has nicer appointments than the new Si's and provides more than enough performnce.
  • shov6shov6 Posts: 177
    FYI, the GTI doesn't have "standard 15's". The GTI has 16" wheels as standard equipment. Even the standard 16" wheel/tire kit puts more rubber on the road than the optional Si tires (and it needs it with all that extra weight).

    -SHOV6
  • mbeards3mbeards3 Posts: 7
    I just bought the GTI last week after considering the under $20k group: Si,SVT,SE-R spec V. The 0-60mph of 6.5 seconds(car and driver) and 6.8sec(motor trend) makes the GTI the fastest. It is also the most luxurious(6 airbags, traction control, abs -ALL STANDARD EQUIP!). If you get quotes for each, the VW dealer actually will drop a grand or more off MSRP. The others will be hard to haggle price on and the standard equipment is not as good. The GTI got my money for the following reasons:
    fastest (it does 15.3sec at 94mph in the 1/4)
    best engine (on wards 10 best engines)
    best equipped,comfort
    decent handling (still mid pack out of this racy group)
    best interior
    24/31 mileage (one of the highest)
    safest (5 star rating with 6 airbags)
    better warranty (4/50k and 5/60k powertrain)
    resale value is almost as good as Hondas
    actual selling price comparable to others(plus VW 4.9% 5yr finan)
    After driving my indigo blue GTI for a week now...
    engine is smooooth, torque is incredible and makes down shifting optional, build quality is very tight. Very comfortable car but still handles good when pushed. Price paid= $19,750 (MSRP=20,950)
    options: luxury package (sunroof,monsoon radio)
    cold weather package (heated seats, wiper nozzles)
    In my opinion the Si needs the 200hp vtec, bigger tires to get my money(but that would make the RSX-S less desireable).
    The Spec V needs a better interior, get smoother and more HP from 2.5 liters.
    The SVT needs more motor. The brakes/handling is awesome, but in a limited production vehicle in this class, it should get to 60mph in under 7 seconds.
    The GTI needs slight tweaking to the handling, but overall is the best in my view.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    is a limited production model, it's still cheaper fully loaded than the GTi. So it's not like it's a $35K special edition with *only* 170hp.

    I don't really like the SE-R, but it does have lots of torque across the band, which is nice.

    Really to me it boils down to a choice between the SVT and the GTi which both have their strong points. Now that the pricing is released on the Si, It sits at a distance 3rd (at least for me).
  • mbeards3mbeards3 Posts: 7
    I would like to know what, if any discount, people are getting on the SVT Focus? With only 7500 made, I doubt much. Therefore, I think the GTI and SVT have roughly the same actual selling prices. Also with the GTI, you get higher resale value, a longer list of standard equipment and longer warranty. I paid $19,750 including destination for the GTI with heated seats and a sunroof which are features I don't think are even offered on the Ford. The zetec(not great to start with) tweaked motor just does not cut it(for me) with 0-60mph times of 7.8(car and driver) and 7.39 (motor trend). Focus has the looks and race car handling but the motor is a disappointing heart of the car. The Si is mid pack in performance across the board, but it has a silky smooth motor and reliability.
    Spec V has good performance, but not the interior and the motor is harsh. Improve the spec v interior design and give the motor a smooth 200hp and I will drool. If you want bigtime power and luxury the GTI is it. For racey handling the SVT is the one. Too bad we can't choose an engine/interior/body/chassis combination selecting the best from each. The VW motor in the Focus chassis and nice body, with the VW interior quality and Honda reliability thrown in would be utopia!
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    Heated seats and moonroof are available on the SVT Focus.

    I do agree that the SVT with VW's 1.8t engine would be one hell of a package. Over on Focaljet.com there are people who have already ordered the SVT and I believe they are getting below MSRP quotes from the dealer (but I don't remember how low).
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Posts: 1,722
    just forgot that the Focus RS (which I doubt will make it here) does have a 230hp turbo in it with an even more aggressive suspension/tire setup than the SVT Focus (called the ST170 in Europe). But, like I said, I don't think we'll see it here in the US.
  • mbeards3mbeards3 Posts: 7
    Been reading about the Dodge Neon SRT4. I think it is actually coming out late in 2003. The current neon R/T is a good little package(for the price 17k-2k rebate). The neon R/T is a good handling car and with the 150hp engine does about 7.8sec 0-60mph. The neon SRT will have a turbocharged 2.4 liter mitsubishi 4 cylinder with 205HP and 235ft of torque! Dodge claims 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. At any rate I think it should be good for low sixes in the race to 60mph. I had a neon in 1996 and I understand that they are still unrefined, but the SRT will be a fast car with great handling. Prices start at $19,995. Quality is average and resale value is kind of low, but this Dodge will raise the bar for the pocket rocket class. Maybe to combat, the Si will get the 200hp RSX-S motor? Maybe the Nissan spec v will get 200hp? Focus SVT would do well with a 200hp turbo or supercharged engine. Even the awesome looking $18k Hyundai tiburon could be a contender with some added HP. Mazda protege is a great car in need of more motor(maybe turbocharge the current 130hp 2.0 liter). A 200hp pocket rocket sounds good to me and this could get interesting in 2003!
  • shov6shov6 Posts: 177
    While good on paper, isn't quite up to the task of competing against any of the other cars you mention. Yes, it is quick, and yes, it posts good numbers in handling, but it doesn't FEEL substantial. I test-drove one in '99 and another when I was shopping for the Focus (just to reinforce my view on the car), and felt the Neon was seriously lacking by comparison. If you make the mistake of driving a Neon back-to-back against a VW, the competition won't even be close.

    This isn't really meant to be a slam on the Neon, and the only person I know who has one has had a wonderful experience reliability-wise (I think he has a '95 Sport, whatever year it is it's a 2dr., the prior generation)... But it (the new car) suffers from less-than-stellar dynamics and a very cheap-looking/feeling interior... even when compared to the Focus, which has been roundly panned for its' liberal use of cheap plastics.

    Throw in the fact that it's not available as a 2dr anymore, and isn't available with a hatch, and it's often not even on people's shopping lists when the GTI, Si, and Focus SVT are in the running. The turbo car will be a rocket, but I fear very much in the vein of the musclecars of old and the more recent Omni GLH, which is an impossibly fast car that is fun to drive for short hops, but is ultimately unsatisfying to a discerning enthusiast.

    At least that's MY take.
  • mbeards3mbeards3 Posts: 7
    I agree that the Neon SRT4 has a cheap interior and design compared to the Focus. The car will be a rocket though and come close to the SVT handling. The neon chassis is a good handling one and 205hp/235 torque will smoke the current crop of pocket rockets. The price of 19,995 base(probably will have a good level of equipment standard) is higher than the SVT, Spec v, Si, and even the GTI. The dodge SRT looks like the new omni GLH from the 80s- a super fast, great handling car, but low budget interior quality and harsh. I had a 1986 Dodge Shelby charger which was the same as the omni glh but with a sporty body. In its day it provided great bang for the buck. The sporty charger was not the sleeper car like the little homely omni. The 2400 pound dodge omni glh(turbo146hp/170torque) and the latter glh-s(intercooled 174hp/200torque) shocked and humilated a good number of unsuspecting sports cars! My hope is that the 205hp dodge srt will raise the performance bar for all pocket rockets. The more competition in this market segment, the better off the consumer is! I have owned several small dodges including the neon, and its shortcomings are refinement, average reliability, resale value. They are great bang for the buck though, especially with the $2000 rebate program that seems to never end. Think of all the pocket rockets available now- the SVT, Si, Spec V, GTI, Protege MP3, neon SRT, and even the $18K Hyundai Tiburon V6. The automakers are bringing the $20k performance segment back to life after focusing on SUVs for last 5 plus years. I think it is great.
  • mbeards3mbeards3 Posts: 7
    This market segment looks appetizing lately with the $23K acura rsx-s, and $24K subaru wrx. The celica GTs is available too, with a actual selling price a little lower- around $22K. For real sports cars the return on the nissan Z series and mazda rx8 is awesome. The current camaro Z28 is dead for now- maybe GM can build a new chassis and decent interior for that proven V8 monster? You can buy a 2002 camaro Z28 right now for around $21K (after discounts and GM's $2002 rebate). It is big, unrefined, uncomfortable, but 1/4 times of under 14 seconds at 105mph are impressive for $21,000!
  • shov6shov6 Posts: 177
    For all my panning of the Neon, I am glad that it is coming to market. Vive la difference!! If it forces the other makers to inject a few more Cheerios into their cars, it only improves the situation for all of us.

    Taking mbeard's comments to the next level, I will have to say that we live in the best of times for automotive enthusiasts. We could get into arguments all day long with the muscleheads in AOL chat about quarter-mile times and other overwhelmingly important foolishness, but today's cars are light-years removed from the dinosaurs of my youth. Keep in mind that a 1983 test of the three GM "musclecars" of that era, the Monte SS, Olds 442, and Buick GN in Car and Driver rang up numbers that would be humiliating when compared to today's hot hatches. Only the GN could outrun even the SVT (not the fastest of today's crop), and the Neon SRT would smoke the GN... And that's just acceleration. Never mind all the other imaginable performance categories, wherein any of today's hatches would annihiliate them.

    Good times. :)

    -SHOV6
  • adg44adg44 Posts: 385
    But there is a point when all these go fast unrefined cars from the factory get boring.

    My GTI is plenty fast, enough to get me into plenty of problems. The only honda that has beaten me is an S2000, and I crushed it off the line.

    Granted I've spent about 10k extra on my GTI in performance mods, so it's not a fair comparison once we get into the modded/modded debate.

    What also needs to be remembered is that what makes a car isn't just the engine, but the amenities that comes with it, the attention to details, the build quality, how comfortable the car is, and other important factors such as that. I personally had an awful experience with a 2000 Accored EX V6 Coupe which I sold after 5 months of pure hell. I bought the GTI VR6 soon after and it has been great for two years.

    Personally, I am not a fan of the new Si, and I like the older ones better. I don't like where the shifter is, their hatchback looks bad, and the 8000 redline was cool on the last gen Si's.

    Anyways, just my opinion.

    - Anthony
This discussion has been closed.