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Ford's new 5-20 oil

2

Comments

  • adc100adc100 Posts: 1,521
    I wouldn't be afraid of 10W especially in your climate either. I maintain a bunch of cars - not all mine (8) and use the 10W in all- even in Pennsylvania.
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    E-mail Etiquette (Netiquette)

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    "This part of the chapter is not just for newbies; even if you've written e-mail for years, review this section carefully. Certain unspoken conventions are very important to keep in mind when you're composing e-mail messages. If you were a novice before, you need to be a professional now.


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  • mbbenzmbbenz Posts: 47
    Thank you. Another word, the guy tentex is an IDIOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,915
    Actually brorjace I was quite serious. My point is we are arguing the validity of a certain engine oil that the manufacture of the vehicles recommends. As if any of us has better knoiwledge then the person who designed and built these vehicles. The 5W-20 could be for better mileage efficiency. Is there something wrong with that? Call me stupid but didn't we just go through $2.00/gallon gas prices across most of the nation less then a year ago? Aren't gas prices starting to inch ther way back up now? And if an engine is running more efficiently, shouldn't the engine last longer?

    If you change your oil yourself, I would use 5W-30 until the 5W-20 becomes more readily available and cheaper. Right now Jiffy Lube, Walmart (in PA) and Lube Express are charging a premium for this oil which isn't fair to the consumer.

    BTW, the 2 vehicles I have seen switch to 5W-20, Ford Focus (new for 2000) and Honda Civic (major re-designed for 2001) including some engine modifications. So yes, the standards for these two vehicles has changed. I'm not aware of any other vehicles in the Ford or Honda line recommending 5W-20. But I'm sure if there are some, you will tell me.
  • armtdmarmtdm Posts: 2,057
    Just happened to see it in the showcase today, container says semi-synthetic.

    On another note, in todays world of Firestones, Ford fiascos, Castrol mis-leading advertising, Toyota sludge, constant manipulation of quality for the sake of profit how can one possibly totally believe what a vehicle manufacturer states as the best lubrication for long term durability. They have one goal in life, stockholder value via mazimixing proft. The fine line is to give the customer the perception of quality while building in obselesence. Now if they published reports of their long term mileage tests with the 5W20 etc but to just say use it??? Personally, i will not purchase a car that recommends this weight until long term results are known. There are too many alternatives out their with proven weight recommendations. Do you honestly believe that Honda will replace engines on thousands of units where the recommended oil was 5W20 when they blow at 100,000 miles, NO WAY!!!!!
  • The 2002 Explorer/Mountaineer with the V-8 engine recommends 5W-20. The V-6 still calls for 5W-30.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Posts: 1,391
    Honda won't replace an engine if you misshift in a RSX Type-S or S2000. Honda is very stingy about this stuff.
  • vwracervwracer Posts: 90
    Bought a new F250 few days ago with 5.4L V8. Owners manual calls for 5w20. Went to Auto Zone yesterday and they had three national brands of dino 5w20 with no difference in price as compared to other weights of the same brand. Wonder if any synthetic brand will make 5w20.
  • <<They have one goal in life, stockholder value via mazimixing proft>>
    Enron apparently didn't have the goal of stockholder value or maximizing profit. Should we give them a civic responsibility award?
  • armtdmarmtdm Posts: 2,057
    The execs did maximize profit when they sold out when the price was still high before the word got out they were bankrupt!
  • brorjacebrorjace Posts: 588
    dtownfb, To keep this short, the car companies treat the average owner like an idiot. They (and their dealer partners) often talk down to owners, condescend and otherwise give them advice that is basically, sorta OK, for the most part. But, it is dumbed down, to be sure.

    Maybe the 'average' owner deserves such treatment as they put little thought into maintaing their car ... but I am certainly not average in this respect.

    And, as others are fond of pointing out, their motives and goals are not necessarily parallel to my own. They want to meet CAFE standards cheaply, stupidly and possibly foolishly.

    I prefer to obtain VASTLY superior fuel mileage through the use of higher tire inflation pressures, superior quality electronic components, synthetic lubricants and a careful driving technique.

    --- Bror Jace
  • I know oils have improved, but high operating temperatures and high speeds have always required a heavier oil. I find it hard to believe that Ford makes no exception; for example, a car driven in a hot climate. The protection against wear offered by 5w-30 in Arizona in July has to be better than 5w-20. I live just north of New York City and I'll let the dealer put 5w-20 in in the cooler months. But from June-Sept its 5w-30 for me. (Remember Castrol's 20w-50 for today's high revving engines?)
  • zr2randozr2rando Posts: 391
    I hate to say it but while the vehicle is under warranty we should go by the book, don't want to give the manfg the excuse to not cover anything at that point.
    BUT! (Notice the CAPS), after warranty, I say thicken up folks! I could care less if my vehicle gets .5 mpg better under perfect testing conditions....I don't want to replace the motor!
    I consider the 10w30 about as thin as I can stand (I live in NC so don't have any problem with extreme cold), I prefer 10w40 (I know, a lot of VI but have never had a problem with it,,just change it very regular...) and personally, during the summer.....gasp!!!.....believe that 20w50 is the way to go....After the motor has worn in it has some wear that opens up the clearances anyway.
    The folks that want us to use 5w20 just want the vehicle to rate a little better gas mileage (CAFE)(heavy push by the gov't probably can't blame them) and could care less about us keeping it long term....Personally I am more interested in keeping the vehicle a long time, I get kinda used to'em.
    That's my opinion, I'm sticking to it, y'all with me or am I swinging the bat in all directions???
    see y'all in a bit
    Rando
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    Mark Salem does a radio show in Phoenix and St. Louis. To me he seems knowledgable. Although I have some qualms about 5W20, I'd have more problems with 10W40 or 20W50, especially in a new engine. I posted this once before and got cutting remarks about Jif or Skippy, but to quote Mr. Salem:


    http://www.salemboysauto.com/faqs/faq-29.htm


    "If you drive your car hard and you are in the city 95% of your time, then you can use either a 5-30 or 10-30 SH or SJ oil. We should use an oil that protects us between the temperature range we live in. Using a 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil will generally give you 1-3% better gas mileage than a 30 weight or 20-50 weight oil. Thinner is better, both for your engine and your pocketbook.


    I know that putting a thinner oil in your car goes against everything you have been taught. Most of us cringe at the thought of putting a 5W-30 in our engine. First, you must understand what motor oil is supposed to do.


    1. Oil is used to provide lubrication between two moving parts to reduce wear. Most internal engine tolerances are measured in thousands of an inch and many tolerances are no thicker than a human hair. So, if you wanted to fill an opening with oil that was no thicker than a human hair, which would do a better job, peanut butter or sewing machine oil?


    2. Oil is used to gather or absorb heat from the internal engine parts and carry it away. Let's say two pieces of metal are rubbing against one another at say...50 times a second or 60 MPH. If we want to flush this joint with oil and keep a continuous stream of oil running through and over it to gather the heat generated and carry it away, would you use peanut butter or sewing machine oil?


    3. Oil is also used to flush the metal particles from the bearings of your engine. This one should be easy...peanut butter or sewing machine oil?


    4. 90-95% of all mechanical engine wear occurs in the first 10 seconds of a cold engine start up. That initial cold start wear can equal hundreds of miles of warm engine wear.


    So.... you it's your choice, peanut butter or sewing machine oil?


    There are situations that call for a thicker oil. In the event your car consumes an abnormal amount of oil between oil changes, using a thicker oil would be beneficial to you. A thicker oil would, in this case, help you control the oil consumption. An abnormal amount is generally described as more than 1 quart every 1000 miles or so.


    But keep in mind that every car made in 1993 and newer recommends a 5W-30 or a 10W-30. We must work to overcome the idea that thicker is better unless of course there is a reason.


    I hope by now you are convinced that peanut butter type oils no longer belong inside your engine. We now know thinner is better."

  • zr2randozr2rando Posts: 391
    I understand how thinner oil can perform better for several of the requirements that you mentioned above, especially in a new engine (low miles and late model).
    BUT,
    For an engine that has more than 50k on it, even a modern engine, during the heat of summer, I still think some additional viscosity comes in very handy. When it is in the 90's and the engine is trying to handle the heat of the ac running plus normal generated heat...even 20w50 is not all that thick. The comparison of peanut butter and sewing machine oil is a bit extreme, I would probably have used corn oil(10w30) and peanut oil(20w50)...with water being the 5w20...
    I do think that during cold weather thinner oil performs great, helps avoid lack-o-lube for that first minute or two.
    I still believe that the manufactures are under significant pressure to get better gas mileage and thinner oil helps (a couple of percent may help the CAFE but doesn't help me).Any gas mileage gains come at the expense of engine longevity which they are NOT under as much pressure to provide..and is MY main concern.
    It would be nice if there was a 5w50 that REALLY performed like the 5w50 implied without all the VI side effects..I guess I'm still just part of that old F--- club too huh?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    I am by no means an oil expert, but I always thought that an oil lost its viscosity during use.
    So that say a 5w-30 oil eventually became something closer to a 5w-20 after so many miles. Also oil drain intervals are getting longer and longer. Some manufacturers reccomend up to 10,000 mile change intervals.

    While, like many others, hesitate on the 5w-30, my thoughts are as follows. If it is OK to run regular 5w-30 oil at 5,000 miles when the viscosity has broken down some, why is it not OK to run synthetic 5w-20 which will not break down nearly as much if at all? I can see resistance to 5w-20 dino oil, but I think synthetic should be alright - don't know about the blends like motorcraft.

    Interestingly it took me a long time to switch from 10w-40 because I thought 5w-30 was way too thin. Part of the reason we used 40 weight back then was to counter the rapid breakdown of the SC rated oil that was used back then - compared to SL (think that is the most recent) that is available today.
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    Personally I use what the manual says to use. I have an Elantra which recommends 10W30 and use that except during the winter. Have a Cavalier which recommends 5W30 and have stayed with that though I'll probably change to 10W30 as the mileage gets past 80K and the engine wears a bit. I wouldn't put an oil without an API seal in a car calling for it. That excludes all 10W40's and 20W50's.
  • zr2randozr2rando Posts: 391
    While under warranty, follow the rules, no question. Thing is all my vehicles don't even remember their warranty days,,,Chev and Nissan couldn't care less what I do with those vehicles now. I'm sure it was just statistics catching up with me but of all the vehicles I've ever owned, I have kept most of them to around 200k, I have had 1 major oil related problem (95 Chev Blazer 4.3 v6 that spun a cam bearing, got metal in the crank bearings ,,or vice versa...), Book said to use 10w30 and that is all I used,(first vehicle I ever used 10w30 in), that engine died at 107k, now I have a GM reman engine in it with a 50k warranty so I am using 10w30,,,,until 50k,,,then I will thicken up a little on that one. If the manufacturer will factory warranty the engine for 100k using lightweight oil then I will believe they are truly looking out for the engine, otherwise I believe they are just trying to improve the CAFE ratings.
    Just a personal thing with me I guess, but the only vehicle I ever used 10w30 on , engine died an early death. I sincerely hope everyone else has better luck than me on that issue.
    All the arguments for using the thinner oils make sense, just my experience says it does not work for me.
    That one engine caused me more $$$ and headache than all the repairs and $$$$ on all my other vehicles so far put together, like I said though, probably just statistics catching up with me...
    I don't particularly care for black cats either, and I don't walk under ladders.
    see y'all
    Rando
  • vwracervwracer Posts: 90
    Everybody seems to think FORD now requires 5W20 to increase gas milage. My 2002 F250 owners manual says 5w20 at 5000 mile changes. 3/4 ton and larger trucks are not required to meet any CAFE numbers. So if FORDs only reason to use 5w20 is for better gas milage then why would they require 5w20 on a 3/4 ton truck that isn't required to meet CAFE numbers?
  • zr2randozr2rando Posts: 391
    Possible that they are trying to standardize on a certain wt oil..
    but you have a good point.
    Personally I believe they have a much larger emphasis (requirement) on gas mileage than they do on engine longevity, most consumers these days don't keep vehicles forever and they know it (they push leases pretty heavy every time I've talked to them.) I am probably out on a limb here but I really do like to keep vehicles for a long time, has cost me much less over the last several years all vehicles considered. After a few years of the newer lighter oils I will see how engines have done and will re-evaluate, but for now, I'm siding with my experience. Time will tell I'm sure. This topic is doin good!
    I'm all ears folks
    Rando
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    I've even dumped in a bottle of STP or similar. New oils have to have reduced zinc because of catalytic converters--- so the idea of going to a 10W40 as cars hit the 150K mark or so is not a bad one.
  • vwracervwracer Posts: 90
    only had the 3/4 ton 3 weeks now so I don't have many miles. My thought now is to run 5w20 through warranty period and then re-evaluate the situation when more info is available. Your opinions will be considered.

    david
  • brorjacebrorjace Posts: 588
    I really think the peanut butter and sewing machine oil example is a good one to illustrate a principle to someone who has no idea what we are talking about ... but it goes too far. For example, no one is advocating dumping grease or 95W140 gear oil in their 7,500 RPM 4-cylinder car.

    The new 5W20 oils were designed for mileage and while I'd use them during the warranty period, I'd never let them go past the 4,000 mile mark ... semi-synthetic or not.

    I know that early multi-viscosity oil formulations were prone to forming sludge ... especially 10W40 ... but that was a while ago and the stuff should flow essentially like a 10W30 in the cold. I don't see how you could damage an engine by using it. 20W50 and 30W maybe, but not 10W40 ... which used to be thought of as a rather thin oil.

    Rando, there had to be something wrong with that motor of yours. dino oil, changed every 5,000 miles with the cheapest filter available should see an engine well past the 100,000 mile mark. Even 5W30 should have kept it alive much longer than that. Did it go slowly or all at once? Any signs of trouble? I assume you got one of GM's bad apples ... and that's a shame. I used to be a big Chevy man. <:^(

    --- <b>Bror Jace
  • I believe that with the new Fords, some Mazdas and Hondas that are recommending 5W20 have closer tolerances and may actually be better served by the lighter weight oil until...

    ...they get older. As the parts wear, the gaps would grow.

    Wouldn't this cause lower oil pressure at operating temps?

    If so, you could/should move to a 5W30 at that point.

    Just thinking and wondering out loud.

    TB
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    Mark Salem runs one of the largest independent garages in Phoenix and is a practicing mechanic. I think he's stated that he's seen modern engines injured by running too heavy an oil.


    I live in St. Louis, not Phoenix, so I can't vouch for his shop. I do know he seems quite knowledgeable on his radio show.


    Again, this is not to state that I believe that 5W20 is anything other than an attempt to squeeze .1 mpg at the expense of 50,000 of engine life. There's a big difference between 10W40 and 5W20.


    http://www.salemboysauto.com/default.htm

  • zr2randozr2rando Posts: 391
    Bror,
    that motor just started ticking one morning when the wife cranked it up (not a particularly cold one either and we have a garage), she called me from work and told me that she noticed the sound as soon as the engine started, no noise at all the day before. I agree, probably just statistics NOT in my favor this time.
    Tboner,
    Theoretically as the engine wears and all the tight clearances loosen up the pressure indicated at the top of the motor WOULD decrease over time, but it would not show up if the pressure sensor is lower on the block close to the filter, at that point it would stay about the same over the life of motor. I have never been able to figure out if the oil pressure is sensed before or after the filter, and the filter bypass would make it difficult to use a differential to tell when the filter is getting stopped up. Your right though, if we could tell when we have "worn in the motor enough" that would be when to start accomodating that aspect.
    Csandste mentioned the decreased zinc in the newer oil (I also read that somewhere else wish I could remember where) which is decreased to make catalytic converters last longer, that zinc is an engine wear protection componant too.
    I think that manufactures these days are really under the gun as for increasing the CAFE ratings, they really push leases as much as possible, and more and more people only keep the vehicle for a few years and then trade. It is easy for someone to buy an older vehicle after it was leased and then if it dies early they can always blame the previous owners for possible neglect. Fewer people are keeping the vehicle for 10+ years anymore and those people are the ones that really need to read topics like this one.
    Anybody found any NEW oil composition comparisons?
    Good morning everyone
    Rando
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    post Ilsac 2/3 comparisons on his web site? I thought that Ilsac 2 had worse protection than ILSAC 1, but that ILSAC 3 was an improvement in both sludge and wear.
  • My old 79 Fairmont 3.3L I6 had the sensor at the top of the block, FWIW.

    I'm trying to remember if my Contour has a sensor up there. There are fittings in the head for this, as the Vortech supercharger kit uses them 8^)

    TB
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