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Saturn ION

2456767

Comments

  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    I really like it! The sedan has strong Nissan Altima cues specially in the back, minus the boy racer taillights. It gets my thumbs up!

    Dislikes:

    The Echo dashboard and the aweful steering wheel.

    the front end looks kinda simplistic too.

    But at this point anyhting is better over the ancient S Series!

    I'll take the sedan, of course,

    Oh why nail braker door handles instead of safer door bars?????
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Looks nice, other than the big, ugly steering wheel! I like the exterior design!
  • hpulley4hpulley4 Member Posts: 591
    My big complaint is the length. 185"! Just 5" shorter than the L-series. I wonder how they will differentiate the ION sedan from the L200 (no 2003 L100). Same engine, just a bit smaller, hmm, though the L200 comes with 4-wheel disks, fully independent suspension, etc.

    I'm looking for a small commuter car replacement, not a car almost as big as the L-series. So much for Saturn's new 'small' car...
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Aside from the steering wheel I like the car. I think the exterior looks great.

    Saturn certainly will have a decent line up come the fall/winter.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    All "small cars" have gotten bigger lately. Look at the new Civic and Corolla. The Ecotec is a great addition and the car will now have class leading power. Not going to miss those old Saturn engines at all.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    The headlights are ugly and non-jeweled. The interior is a toss up. Looks cheapy to me. Lutz, what's going on with the interior of this car????

    I have a feeling the Delta Platform Cavalier replacement will look much nicer. I honestly can't stand the cheap looking Toyota Echo interior and the aweful steering wheel.
  • hpulley4hpulley4 Member Posts: 591
    I know cars are tending to get bigger, look at Nissan's Altima now bigger than the L-series and the Sentra isn't that small either (I remember when it used to be an econohatch car). Still, that's not what I'm looking for so I won't have to wait for it to see if I can stand the funky centre-mounted IP or not.

    I don't know if 137hp is going to give it class-leading HP either; guess it depends on the class. Sentra and Impreza both have a peppy 2.5L 4-banger, etc.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Maybe not class leading, but certainly better than most.

    Why would you not want a little more space in a compact car providing the economy was as good? In my view the trend to slightly larger is a good thing as I find some older models to be a little tight. The s-series was one of the worst.

    Still nothing at www.2003ion.com
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    The ION is indeed a huge improvement over the S-series. The car looks generally nice and has a really balanced angular look to it. At least the generic Jelly bean looks are history.

    My Beef with Saturns is that they tend to look cheap no matter how nice the shape might be. Perhaps pictures don't do much justice to it, but man those door handles look cheap, the front end headlights look bargain basement and the interior is questionable.

    Judging by the Saturn VUE and now the ION, it appears to be that Saturn's customer base doesn't seem to demand much in terms of world class looks and quality of materials.

    I hope at the very least this car is capable of delivering superior safety and a rewarding driving experience.

    Still think the Chevy version will be much better and devoid of the Mickey Mouse/Toyota Echo interior design/materials touches.
  • hpulley4hpulley4 Member Posts: 591
    This will just be a commuter car for me, just one person 99% of the time, with nothing in the trunk but some emergency supplies most of the time. I already have an LW200 for the family and 4 passengers with cargo. On rare occasions I have 3 passengers in my commuter car to go out to lunch or something but that's about it and they can even squeeze into my current car.

    Actually, my driveway is the biggest limiting factor. Unless I get new, really narrow side steps put in, there isn't a lot of extra room with the LW200 and my Geo Metro parked there (I know, I should buy a house with a bigger driveway!). Sure, there is theoretically some extra room but on average days when we don't park perfectly there is just a couple of feet left behind the last car out before the sidewalk (it is an expensive parking ticket in Guelph to leave your car hanging out). So a car like the ION being 35", or nearly 3 feet, longer than the Metro is just too big for me especially since I don't need it. We could stuff it in if necessary but we'd probably need to get out and direct each other which would get old very quickly.

    If I need cargo space, I'd rather get another hatchback which is shorter but still carries lots of stuff. The Vibe, Aerio, Protege5 and Focus ZX5 are all at least a foot shorter than the ION.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Everything in this class is getting bigger. They seemed to place it directly between the Civic/Corolla/Focus and the Accord/Camry, like the old Altima. Maybe that is a good move, sort of create their own niche.

    Like dindak says above, why does it matter if it's a little bigger as long as it gets good mileage. As a bigger guy, I would appreciate the extra room.

    Also agree with teo- this car is a good effort but I would expect the 2004 version to be nicer after Lutz has more time to "fine tune" it, same as with the Cadillac CTS.

    Also, they really need to plan on replacing this car by 2008/2009 at the latest, no more building the same car forever.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I somehow think it will fit ok on your driveway, but I guess if it's too squished maybe that's bad. Honestly I don't see many cars shrinking so you better buy soon.

    ;-)

    I noticed ABS will still be optional. Still don't understand that logic!
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The size of the ION vis-a-vis the L will not be an issue for long, as Saturn will not offer the L after 04. With a leatherette-like interior, the ION would be about everything my L is now.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    That's Lutz logic. He almost wants to decontent all upcoming GM cars in order to improve the quality of the interiors. His beef with the content level of current GM cars is that, according to him, these do not actually influence the purchase decision, makes the car costlier (Option packages) and money is not spent into critical items such as the quality of the interiors.

    I agree that safety should not be optional. I simply don't buy a car without ABS, 4-wheel discs and traction control.

    He says that if an option is pretty popular it will then become standard accross the board.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Yes, the L series will be replaced in 2004/2005 with a "tall wagon" type vehicle based on the Epsilon (Malibu,Grand Am, Saab 9-3).

    As for the ABS - Saturn is aimed at "import" buyers and ABS isn't standard on Corollas, Camrys, Accords, Civics, etc... either.

    Lutz's aim is to "decontent" things that people don't care about, so that for the same price, the things that people DO care about can be improved.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I guess if the aim is to be comparable to the "imports", then ABS as an option makes sense.

    It just seems sill that almost every GM car/truck has standard ABS and Saturn's don't (except the L-series for some unknown reason).
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    I would like the abs as a standard, but it is hard to fault Lutz' logic. Edmunds GM haters here constantly talk about the looks and tactile quality of GMs interior plastics, yet do not say boo about things like abs.

    Given that cars in this sgment must compete on price, (and therefore can never be fully loaded) it appears many people looking to buy a car would rather the manufacturer invest more money in superficial things like the dashboard or seat covering and much less in substantive things like abs and 5 speed automatics.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    I agree logic1. The Accord and Camry do not have ABS or 4 wheel discs, and they are the 2 best selling cars in the country. Which to me shows, ABS is not at the top of the "average" consumer's list of "must haves" for their new car.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Do not have much to say that has not been already.

    One thing that really jumps at me when viewing Saturns photos: The Sedan appears to be very ready for a hatch conversion. In fact, while I like the sedan lines, when I look at it, I almost find myself looking for a hatchback. GM has suggested there will be several hatchs built off the delta platform. I think this is one.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I like the look of the car itself. The front looks like the 1999ish Nissan Sentra to me though. And that steering wheel, ugh! Take it off, it looks like the ones from the go-carts at the state fair when I was a kid.
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    Hey! How'd my Echo's dash get in there? :)
    All I can say is that a center-mounted panel is not hard to read and is actually easier to view at a glance without taking your eyes off the road. There is also better visiblility for night driving as there are no lights in front of you.
    I agree the materials look cheap...but it seems all new cars are being made that way. Witness the Altima!
    And yeah, that steering wheel...can we talk?
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    I rented an Echo a week ago when my car was in the shop, and it was not a bad car. I actually did not mind the center dash pod, but the gauges were a little sparse (only fuel and speedometer). Too bad it didn't have enough driver's foot room for me. And fuel economy, with hard driving, only averaged 26mpg or so. I was surprised.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Logic - post #71 - what is the URL you are going to? When I try http://www.2003saturnion.com I'm still not getting any pictures. It says the car will be intro'd on 3-27, but still no pictures at 2:38pm Eastern?
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    Go to the site, and another page should come up and start playing an intro. I just went there, and that's what happend for me.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I personally like the fact that GM does not nickel and dime for ABS. I would never buy a car without now and having to add seem to me like the old days when everything was an option. Like I said, it probably did make business sense in the Saturn.

    As for the materials, we shall see what comes out in production. The VUE dash is better that I thought it would be. My only gripe is the heat/air controls seem a bit flimsy.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    The VUE is horribly finished. Materials are Fisher price grade. I hope the ION is a bit better in this area.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Mach.. Vocus beat me to the punch. That is how I got it to load.

    Dindak: I think if Saturn were to launch a hatch ION along with the sedan and coupe, I could actually talk my wife into that over the cute-ute. Would you be interested in an ION hatch, or would it not be enough to meet your young family's needs?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The exterior styling of the ION is very eye-catching; I like it very much. But the interior. Wow. Oceans of unadorned plastic. I don't like the Echo interior, and I don't like this one either.
    ~alpha
  • hpulley4hpulley4 Member Posts: 591
    The hatch would probably be shorter. As dindak said, look at the picture and just cut it off following the curve of the rear window glass and you basically have it. I prefer hatches anyways, which is why the Vibe is the vehicle I am currently considering. I'd prefer a 2.2L engine to the 1.8L as I could then get automatic and still have enough power.

    At first, I heard rumours that the hatch wouldn't be out until 2003 (2004 MY) but now I've heard nothing about it so I wonder if they canned it?
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    bring the hatch and fix the interior.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    Like I said above, hopefully this car will be "fine tuned" by Lutz and Co. in the next year or so - get rid of the huge steering wheel, for one thing. It's a nice looking car that needs some detail improvement. Also consider, it's built to a price point. I assume it won't cost too much more than the old S-series.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    teo : For the price of the vehicle the VUE's interior is ok.

    logic1 : Unfortunately our lease on the Cavalier is up in July so I can't get an ION. We will probably go for an Alero, Vibe or VUE at this point.

    hpulley : Heard nothing of a hatch. Maybe the details are still to come.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    "teo : For the price of the vehicle the VUE's interior is ok."

    I disagree, its pretty mediocre. The VUE isn't exactly cheap.

    Take a look at a mundane 2002 VW Golf GL 5-door.

    That's how an interior should be done, no excuses just perfect. That Golf is $16K give and take.

    Saturn has ZERO excuses for cheap interiors.
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    Be warned that the Oldsmobile is going to have poor resale/residual values because of its forthcoming demise. You might wanna think about that before buying one of them.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The Golf is a much smaller vehicle than the VUE, yet retails for pretty much the same. VWs tend to be unreliable as well. But this goes to what some of the others and I were saying a few strings above. Most customers do not mind cost cutting in areas they cannot see, so long as what they see looks nice. GM could probably lose points on reliability but gain sales by cheapening mechanicals and spending money on superficials. Personally, I do not understand it, but realize this is a money business and the customer has to be pleased before parting with money.
  • machiavellimachiavelli Member Posts: 260
    People rave about VW interiors, but I sat in a New Beetle recently, and it was very cheap and plasticy feeling to me. Lots of body colored metal showing. The smallest tachometer I've ever seen in a car. I have to assume Golf/Jetta/Passat interiors are A LOT nicer.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    The Golf is smaller, fair enough. But why can't the ION boast a higher quality interior in comparison to the VW?

    Sorry, whether VW's are reliable or not, they sell and for a lot of people it seems, the interior quality is very important. Even Lutz is well aware of this.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    vocus : I know all about it. Won't really affect Alero much though as it's identical to Grand Am. Also likely leasing this next car anyway.

    teo : Have to agree to disagree. Golf is a car, apples to oranges man. Nothing special about the Golf anyway.
  • teoteo Member Posts: 2,508
    Ok man. Golf to ION. Mangos to Mangos, eh?
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Obviously a Golf to Ion comparison would make more sense than a Golf to Vue. The Vue has additional steel in its frame, heavier and larger springs, shocks, struts, etc., all of which cost more money.

    To price the Vue as low as it is, Saturn had to make compromises. Saturn compromised on appearance (and frankly, when I checked out the interior of the Vue, I saw nothing that said to me this piece or that will break before a similar piece in the Golf. So we are only talking about appearance, not durability.) Certainly when Saturn brings out the upscale version of the Vue next year, it should have the interior bells and whistles so important these days.

    And, Teo, I am not arguing with you about the importance of appearance. You are right. A substantial portion of the market cares more about how their car looks than how it is actually made (thus the ES300). Personally, I would want Saturn to concentrate on the space frame, ride and handling, and many other things before how its interior plastic looks. But that is me.

    For example, when I bought my Miata, I got the base model (cloth seats, so-so stereo) with the sport suspension. I added some trick anti-sway bars for a couple hundred in parts and labor. I also upgraded to Dunlop high performance tires. Final bill was about the same as I might have paid for a Mazda LS with all the pretty leather and the better stereo. Know what? I do not regret what I got at all. I want to drive, not look pretty.

    Dindak:

    I know you have to buy before the ION is available. But wouldn't a hatch with the Ecotec be a great alternative to the Vibe/Matrix? There is a lot to like about the V/M twins. But going with the Toyota Celica engine and drive train seems a mistake in what by all appearances should be a practical machine.
  • raychuang00raychuang00 Member Posts: 541
    After looking at the specs of the 2003 Saturn Ion, I think this is now the replacement for my 1998 Honda Civic HX CVT coupe. :-)

    The fact the Ion will use the 2.0-liter Ecotec engine from the European Opel models (which means a reasonably quiet engine that can be revved easily) plus the VTi CVT automatic transmission means it's EXACTLY the car I've long waited for.

    Ditch that funny-looking steering wheel and it WILL be my next car.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    I have the ecotec in my L. I can say with confidence that it is a very nice 4 cyl. Saturn may be on the way back with this pleasant package.
  • verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    Saturn on its way back???
    With that steering wheel and that
    central-gauge placement?

    When I'm driving, I'm looking out on the road
    [ahead of driver]... and the gauges should be there too!

    Yuck... GM's trying to compete with the ECHO now...
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    I honestly don't see what everyone is raving about here. Is it just because Saturn loyalists finally have a completely new small car to talk about? I mean Saturn fans have been starved for a new look for a long time, but this car isn't that great. The Ion definitely has more character looks-wise then the Civic and Sentra, but it's by no means a real pretty car. The front, as Vocus points out, looks almost exactly like the 99 Sentra: same headlight shape, squareish face, and painted plastic above a strange shaped grille opening. The rear looks like a Neon with a bloated bumper. The side could do without the character line curving up in the middle of the door (looks totally tacky and ruins the car's clean lines), and what's with the odd way the rear door ends in a large flat spot behind the rear window where most cars are curved (which also forms an unusual out of place triangular looking piece)? It also is way too big for an entry level small economy sedan. The front and rear overhangs are huge and yet the interior space is only 93 cubic feet, the same as the Focus and Lancer. Why have all that added length unless it translates into class leading interior space? The Ion won't be mistaken for anything but a Saturn, which I suppose is a good thing for Saturn loyalists, but its not a good way to attract new buyers. The interior, as I said before, completely ruins the car. Ugly, ugly, ugly! I'm definitely not impressed and will have no reason to shop the Saturn store.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    You ignore trunk space that is equal to mid-size cars. Larger sized compacts is the trend of the market. Given that Saturn will discontinue the L at the end of its run, it makes sense to have the ION come closer to the L in size. The NA market buys more trucks than cars. Smaller cars are not a good way to find market.

    I do not understand your comment that the ION will be mistaken for anything else but a Saturn. Are you saying that the ION should fool people into thinking it is some other car? Makes no sense to me. I suppose if I wanted to waste the time, I could make a component by component critique of the Hyundai. Frankly, I never really notice Hyundais, so I cannot be bothered.

    The ecotec matched with the Saab manual alone will be reason enough to consider the ION. I have also read very positive things about the Delta platform's road manners. But, as I have stated above, it does appear as many of you enthusiasts in this segment are more enthused with interior prettiness than road manners, however.

    As for the center guages, as stated above, the driver needs only a few minutes to adjust. They do not effect the driver's ability to see the road. The Echo is not the only car to have them, by the way. The Cooper does as well.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    teo : You were comparing the VUE to the Golf (post 85). I can't make that stuff up.

    logic1 : ION hatch would be a great alternative to the Vibe. Nice to see hatch back type cars coming back a little. Always thought they were convenient. I agree with you on the drive train, the 2.2L Ecotec is one of the better 4 bangers out there, better than the 1.8L Toyota in the Vibe for sure. Center gauges are no big deal either. People say they don't like them, but they likely have never driven a car with them either. Get used to it after a day or two, big deal.
  • raychuang00raychuang00 Member Posts: 541
    After getting some good pictures about the Ion, I think I know what the Ion reminds a lot of: a reduced size 2002 Nissan Altima.

    It's not the most beautiful car, but I think given its shape the car might actually be successful in Japan, where "surface excitement" is a major selling point of cars there.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Looking at the close up shots of the interior, it certainly looks better than I initially thought.


    http://www.saturnfans.com/cgi-bin/imagefolio/imageFolio.cgi?direct=Saturn_Models/ION/2003/Inside_ION_Coupe_In_NY

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