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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    FYI - an owner of either the Odyssey or Sienna can, indeed, do EVERY item on your list. The only difference is that you simply stow the 2nd row seat, whereas the Ody/Sienna owner takes the seat out. Yes, the DC vans have the advantage in that actually removing the 2nd row seats is somewhat harder than folding them into the floor. But to say that Ody/Sienna owners CAN'T do those things is more than a stretch.

    BTW - why the fascination with the ability to load a double stroller in the side door? Why wouldn't you simply have the kids in the middle seat (where mom can actually access them easier from the front seats), and fold the 3rd row into the floor and load the double stroller, all set up, in the back?

    Does it REALLY make sense to place the kids all the way back in the 3rd row, fold the 2nd row (just because marine2 HAS to make use of his nifty-keen stow'n'go seats), and then place cargo between mom and the kids? I wonder what happens to all that unsecured cargo in the middle of the van in the event of an accident?

    Same with your 25-gallon air compressor: doesn't that belong in the back, behind the 2nd row seats, rather than rolling around between the 1st and 3rd rows?
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    BTW - why the fascination with the ability to load a double stroller in the side door? Why wouldn't you simply have the kids in the middle seat (where mom can actually access them easier from the front seats), and fold the 3rd row into the floor and load the double stroller, all set up, in the back?

    I think trying to load a double stroller in the back, all set up would be pretty hard for a woman. Especially when all she needs to do is tilt back the handle and roll it in the side door. Same with loading a compressor, except one person couldn't do it in back. It also can be rolled in the side door. Only one seat would have to be stowed to get either of them in and both can be secured by the anchors in the floor by a bungy cord or rope. In an accident, what is to prevent both from being thrown forward when setting or laying the back with no way of tying them down?

    Does it REALLY make sense to place the kids all the way back in the 3rd row, fold the 2nd row (just because marine2 HAS to make use of his nifty-keen stow'n'go seats), and then place cargo between mom and the kids?

    Only one child needs to be put back in the third row. But even if both were in the second row, mother couldn't reach them from the driver's seat. Wouldn't we want to make things easier for mom? That is what Stow-n-Go does.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "I think trying to load a double stroller in the back, all set up would be pretty hard for a woman."

    Yes, we all know how weak our womenfolk are. :blush: (you are kidding, right? It's a STROLLER.)

    "In an accident, what is to prevent both from being thrown forward when setting or laying the back with no way of tying them down?"

    Keeping them from being thrown forward? Ummmm, the 2nd row seats maybe? I find it hard to believe that you think it is somehow safer to stow cargo between the 1st/3rd rows, in the MIDDLE of the passenger space, rather than behind the 2nd row. If you honestly believe that, then I can just disregard the rest of your posts in the future.

    "Wouldn't we want to make things easier for mom? That is what Stow-n-Go does."

    It is easier on mom to have the kids in the 3rd row, rather than the 2nd? If that's the case, why don't all moms around the country simply remove the 2nd row seats on a semi-permanent basis? I'm sure my wife would be thrilled by that idea.......
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Yes, we all know how weak our womenfolk are. (you are kidding, right? It's a STROLLER.)


    It's obvious you haven't seen some of these double strollers, or tried to even imagine a little woman like mine, try to lift it up and push it in. Go look at some the next time your at the store.

    I'd also like to see one man pick up a 25 gallon air compressor and stick it in the back. Hernia, here we come.

    Keeping them from being thrown forward? Ummmm, the 2nd row seats maybe? I find it hard to believe that you think it is somehow safer to stow cargo between the 1st/3rd rows, in the MIDDLE of the passenger space, rather than behind the 2nd row. If you honestly believe that, then I can just disregard the rest of your posts in the future.

    Behind the second row? let's see you put a stroller or air compressor behind the second row. I am sure you meant third row. But yes, it is safer, because you can tie them down between the first and third row. There are several places in the floor to tie them down with that one seat stowed. You can't tie them down behind the third row seats. I have a good come back for your last sentence, but I won't stoop that low in using it. I want to just discuss the advantages of owning one or the other's van.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Posts: 758
    Relax guys. We're just talking about vans and not politics ;)
    Actually as I have posted before, the one thing we like the most about the DGC is the 3rd row split seating. With the split seat, you can just drop a portion of it and roll the double/single stroller in without collapsing it. This would work perfectly with our 3 little kids. Of course we love the 2nd row stow-n-go too and the storage wells. But we were finally won over by the Quest's good looks and followed our heart rather than rationality :)
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "let's see you put a stroller or air compressor behind the second row. I am sure you meant third row."

    I think we're discussing whether it is 'better' to fold the 2nd row (stow'n'go) to increase cargo carrying capacity, or if it is 'better' to fold the 3rd row (virtually all other vans) to increase cargo carrying capacity. At least that is what I'm referring to. In which case I did indeed mean placing items behind the 2nd row (you know, it that rather large space between the 2nd row seats and the rear hatch).

    Are you saying there are no tiedowns provided in the space between the 2nd row and the rear hatch (traditional cargo carrying space) whereas there are dedicated tie down areas in the space between the 1st/3rd rows?

    In other words, is the preferable cargo area, as designed by DCX, the space between the 1st/3rd rows RATHER THAN the space between the 2nd row/rear hatch?

    "I want to just discuss the advantages of owning one or the other's van."

    Then let's do so. The advantage of the stow'n'go is that it is much easier to use the 2nd row seating area for cargo should the owner chose. With vans with removable seats, it is harder to use that space for storage. THAT'S IT. I honestly believe that your stance that it is preferable to use the 3rd row for passengers and the intervening space for cargo as opposed to the more traditional placement of cargo in the rear with passengers in the 1st/2nd rows is reaching.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    I have yet to drop the third split seat, but that would work with a stroller. You have to follow what you like and what works for you.

    I guess I like Stow-n-Go so much because up till Dec. of last year, I drove a pick up truck. Have for over 15 years. Being a home owner, I used the heck out of that truck remodeling my home, fixing up my yard, etc. It wasn't until my brother and I helped my sister move that I ever even thought of having a minivan. We both loaded up our vehicles and moved her stuff, load after load. Of course we had to take the second and third row seats out of my brother's van, which I hated. But he let me drive it one trip and he drove mine. Loved the way it drove and parked. But what really got me was how much more we could get in his Dodge van than I could get in my truck. Mostly because he could pile as high as the ceiling and I couldn't get over the height of my bed walls, except for tall stuff. But I didn't even think of buying one because of those seats in his van. They were way to heavy to take out by myself and I didn't like that. Well, last Dec. I took my truck into the Dodge dealer to get an oil change. While waiting for them to finish, I went out and looked at trucks and minivans. The salesman comes up and shows me those stow-n-go seats and I got very interested. When he offered to knock off over $3,500.00 off the sticker price and finance it through Chrysler for zero % interest, I bought it right then and there. I haven't had it back to the dealer yet, except for an oil change and I love it as much as the day I bought it. It's easy to carry stuff in and easy to get kids in and out of and carry the dog with me. I constantly keep the passenger's side seat stowed and it's a snap getting almost anything in and out of that van. As I said, it's people friendly.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Posts: 758
    I definitely agree marine. It's wonderful you got yourself the van you absolutely love. Enough said. Isn't that what it's all about? The DGC is definitely a helluva van for the money you pay! Are the Odyssey and Sienna nice? Sure, but you pay for the niceness too. Not all folks are able to or want to shell out $28K for a van.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Rorr, in most cases it is better to put stuff behind the third row seat. I did today with three 5 gallon water bottles I filled at the water store, for my water cooler. (I save a bundle getting it myself) I stuck them down in the well so they wouldn't spill over.

    But it was much easier for me to put that air compressor in the middle where I keep that one seat stored. There are hooks on the floor the seat hooks to when up. I can easily put a rope threw those hooks and tie that air compressor down. It was also easy getting it into the van using the side door. I just wheeled it up to the door pushed down the handle of the compressor to lift the wheels up. Pushed it again about two inches till the wheels caught on the floor of the van and then just pushed the compressor in and tied it down. There is no way I could have lifted that compressor up the back hatch by myself. It's higher and the bumper sticks out to far. to get it close enough. Plus, there are no hooks in back to tie it down.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Are the Odyssey and Sienna nice? Sure, but you pay for the niceness too. Not all folks are able to or want to shell out $28K for a van.

    It would have been over 30,000 to get one with a power rear hatch, from what I have been reading. And $28,000 doesn't even get you the over head computer. Not sure about the upgrade radio, CD/cassette.
  • daedae Posts: 143
    Not sure about the upgrade radio, CD/cassette

    Those things can be argued ad nauseum.

    I can counter (as I did) that even in the cheapest trim on Honda you still get the same nice engine and all safety features as stability control and three-row side impact airbag.

    That's why those marketing droids are on payroll. To find people who are fascinated with the cheapest possible doodad to pay the highest possible price. We are all sucke...^H^H^H consumers.

    I will leave that discussion at that. :) (My marketing/product launch meetings are over... Less time to browse the net and flame. Hate those folks in my outfit..)
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    I can counter (as I did) that even in the cheapest trim on Honda you still get the same nice engine and all safety features as stability control and three-row side impact airbag.

    That's all nice and good. But I don't believe that is really what sells a van or a car to many women and that is who mostly drives them. Chrysler doesn't make them standard on their vans, saying not that many people ask for them. They want the electric doors and hatch. Good price and good looks. Can you imagine the vans Chrysler would sell if they dressed up their inside a bit. I doubt you would have anymore asking for side airbags. They want those power sliding doors and hatch. and all those goodies. You can bet if people were bugging Chrysler about side airbags, they'd make them standard. Or at least have a bunch on their lots.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Honda wins morality points by making side curtain airbags standard. As well as VSC which is standard as well. Every vehicle should have them.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Honda wins morality points by making side curtain airbags standard. As well as VSC which is standard as well. Every vehicle should have them.


    I agree. But Chrysler, along with GM and Ford are in a money crises. They are going to put on their vans what they think will better sell them and it isn't side airbags. Did you know my 2005 Dodge has an airbag for my knees, under the dash? Chrysler didn't feel it important enough to even advertise it.

    As it is, they stripped a lot off my van that my brother has on his to save money. I have no pin lights on my door for any of the switches except my window. Key ring light is gone, they took one of the two lights on the vanity mirrors, one of two lights off the rear hatch, glove box light, and de-icer off the bottom of the windshield. My brother's van has all of those. To many people buying foreign.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Many of the things DC minivans formerly had and no longer have were NEVER part of many other minivans.
    I like the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger that has been available on almost all DC minivans but the strippers made for rental and lease. This nice feature had been a comfort item only on the very expensive luxury vehicles until DaimlerChrysler made it available for the common man. Same with the nice complete overhead console with compass/outside temperature and trip computer. The first I heard of this was when a friend told me about it being on his wife's Cadillac. ;)
  • daedae Posts: 143
    I like the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger

    Odyssey EX has that and you make it sound like that is something exceptional nowdays. Is it?

    Many good ideas appear first somewhere. I really found no correlation between current quality and features and being first to the market. All minivan innovations appeared somewhere first. But for historical interest it does not matter much - except for high inestment high tech items, as suspension, or engine, or electrical subsystem: were long good track record does count.

    Ergonomic features are too easy to replicate to be in this category.
  • daedae Posts: 143
    (you are kidding, right? It's a STROLLER.)

    Yes, a Stroller with all capital letters. Those things are humongous. :sick: I am thankful to have a 5'9" ex-gymnast and an avid rockclimber handling them.

    I can totally understand why many will find it extremely burdensome to load them.

    Dang.. I promised to quit posting today..
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    I have never rented a minivan. Do they leave off a lot of stuff that you would find on even some of the cheaper models?

    I think the modem is going out for this computer. The lights keep going out on it and I have to wait a few minutes and plug it back in to get it to work again. I sure don't want to go back using a phone line and AOL again. I guess I'll pick one up tomorrow.
  • daedae Posts: 143
    To many people buying foreign

    My friend in Australia would have no idea what an Alabama build Odyssey is like. He would buy a quite another Odyssey (entirely different car is sold outside US). Those Hondas and Toyota's around here are quite american down to all the bolts.

    The real "foreign" Odyssey. Quite a nice and practical vehicle it seems. Still winning comparisons .

    Toyota Avensis Verso GLX, Holden Zafira, Kia Carnival LS, Toyota Tarago GLi, Hyudai Trajet GL - WTF are those competitors. :confuse: And Chrysler Voyag'r SE LWB got the lowest mark - though mostly for value...

    image

    better view

    Interesting site site to browse BTW. Quite a different picture out there...
  • daedae Posts: 143
    I have never rented a minivan. Do they leave off a lot of stuff that you would find on even some of the cheaper models?

    Does not seem so. Just a simpler model.

    I either rent a van (usually Dodge GC) for bike trips in Utah and such, a Jeep Wrangler on Hawaii or a convertible, which is frequently a Chrysler, elsewhere, inluding cold Boston, . That experience turned me off that brand completely.

    Now I need to be gone indeed. :) Best luck..
  • lastwraithlastwraith Posts: 350
    "Buying the red Town and Country today. I'll sacrifice fun and driving engagement for peace of mind over transmission worries and..."

    Now, when did anyone expect to hear THAT as an argument for getting a DC minivan product? My the times they are a changin'.

    I have to agree with dae about the dual climate control.....yeah, DC had it early on but really....who cares. It's not like they invented it, it had been on plenty of other vehicles before. And I don't think that is a must-have feature for most people anyway. The majority of the time, there will be one adult driving and a bunch of kids in the back rendering it quite useless.
    As for side curtains, I think that IS an important feature that will sell minivans. I know when we were at the dealer, it was a major sticking point for at least 3 families there. Honda had it on all the vans, Toyota had it on some (though you couldn't find any optioned with them because they had all been sold already), and DC had it sparingly as well. At least in my area, it was a major selling point.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Over almost the past 2 years, I have rented about 60 minivans, mostly DGCs, and T & C on my business travels throghout the USA. Some were brand new under 10 miles on the ODO and loaded with leather and goodies. I guess that Chrysler may have tossed in a few loaded ones among the huge purchases the car rentals make. On far less occasions, I got the new GM minivan as well as the Freestar.

    Like I have always said before, these vehicles cannot compare with the "sporty" handling, fun to drive, and energetic way the Ody drives. Always glad to come back home to my Ody!
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Interesting.

    But $45+K for a 2.5L 4 banger!
    Wow!

    I don't know for sure what the currency exchange is.

    But we can get the Ody LX (255hp VTEC V6) for about half that in USD!
    Must be the taxes(VAT) in down under!
    We should not complain here about prices - we are spoilt!
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Wow dae, that is about the nicest minivan I have ever seen. Glad they don't make it over here. Just beautiful. At least what I can see of it.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    "Now, when did anyone expect to hear THAT as an argument for getting a DC minivan product? My the times they are a changin'. "

    Decisions should be driven by facts. In this case, with

    T & C vs Ody

    Low miles vs Very High Miles
    2001 vs 1999
    Previous earlier 1990 Tranny Problem Fixed(?) vs A Known Tranny beginning 1999(Fix done?)
    Low resale value(Easier to bargain) vs High resale value(Difficult to bargain)
    Driver does not care about fun to drive, sporty handling, refinement, etc

    Based on the above facts, the T & C looks more attractive.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    1)"But, Chrysler, alomg with GM and Ford are in a money crises."

    2)"They are going to put on their vans what they think will better sell them and it isn't side airbags."

    1) I think the same thing could be said of Nissan, Mazda and most any other manufacturerer. It seems like the overall quality of parts/materials isn't up to the high standards from 10 years ago.They feel like they have to cut expenses(competition), so they use a cheaper plastic, or cheaper upholstery,parts or carpet. Things they think most people won't notice. Or, take out all the nice little extras as you mentioned.

    2) I agree that side or knee airbags may have little effect in the sales of pickup trucks. But, think it would be important in the sale of minivans...or people movers.
    Don't know if knee airbags would cause any reaction other than curiosity. ;)
  • daedae Posts: 143
    But $45+K

    Australian. US$34K

    We indeed should not complain about prices here. Especially on gazoline.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Not enough difference in power and handling between an Ody EX and GC Sport or T&C LX to notice.
    My wife DID NOTICE that the Odyssey EX is MUCH NOISIER than either the GC Sport or the T&C LX. :sick: She also noticed that the glove box of the Ody intruded into her knee space and that the Ody did NOT have the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger. :cry:
    On the other hand, I noticed that the Ody seats are more comfortable for me than the seats of either the GC Sport or the T&C LX and there is more cargo space behind the 3rd row of the Ody EX than either the GC Sport or T&C LX.
  • daedae Posts: 143
    She also noticed that the glove box of the Ody intruded into her knee space

    That's is odd. How tall is she? I am 6' and my wife 5'9.5" and it is seemed plenty of knee space on 2005 EX even in the most forward position.

    Not enough difference in power and handling between an Ody EX and GC Sport or T&C LX to notice.

    11s on the 180hp engine vs 8.5s 0-60 not enough difference? Yard smaller turning radius? 15% more lateral road holding? 10ft smaller stopping distance from 60? What is enough difference then?

    While many other fine points about DC vs Honda vs rest people do argue about, driving dynamics is usually the one thing everybody agree in the Odyssey's favor.

    Ody did NOT have the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger.

    Mine 2005 EX most certainly does have this feature. Yet to use it.
  • lastwraithlastwraith Posts: 350
    "Previous earlier 1990 Tranny Problem Fixed(?)"
    If you are talking about the DC T&C for that quote then I think you missed my point. Mid to late 90s DC minivans were pretty much famous for horrendous transmission woes. I basically pray everyday that my '98 Expresso will not dump its tranny.

    I was just pointing out the fact that it is funny to hear someone flip the argument and choose the DC offering over the Honda in the area of drivetrain reliability. Obviously DC has won back that customer's trust.
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