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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,542
    Autosite does a monthly market report:

    link

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • craigmricraigmri Posts: 243
    Wow! I'm suprised about the numbers. In my area of Florida I see tons of Sedona's(possibly because I'm looking for them?) yet the figures show Honda and toyota sell more than twice as many(each). This suprises me a little. Not because I feel the Sedona is better(I know its not) rather because its such a rediculously good value. From 2003 to 2004 the Sedona numbers are up a large percentage even though the van is unchanged so I suspect people are beginning to become a little more comfortable with Kia/Hyundai.

    Craig
    '04 Sedona EX
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Posts: 2,554
    Do the figures include any model years sold during the months listed? I.e., the figures include both 2004 and 2005 model year vehicles?

    Surprising to see Kia Sedona up 25% vs. last year. Right now, they are selling 3- (MY 2004) and 4-model year old (MY 2005) vans that lack some key features in this class. I think Kia has made some inroads in the minivan market. Granted, they aren't doing it without rebates, but most of the minivan players, save Ody and Sienna, are doing rebates - and some makes, notably Ford and GM - are forced to throw HUGE rebates to entice buyers.

    Sedona easily outsold Quest year to date, nearly double Pontiac's Montana, and easily doubled MPV.

    What seems most interesting is that many minivan models have seen declining sales this year vs. last, including Windstar, Montana, Venture, MPV, and even Odyssey. Sedona and Sienna are among the relatively few models to see increased 2004 sales.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Right... total sales is only one piece of the pie. One must also factor in sales goals and increases in sales from previous months and quarters. From what I understand the Mazda MPV has increased sales this year by double digits over last year....as overall Mazda sales are doing really well. Mazda has just raised their rebates on the o4' MPV's to $4,250. Toyota carried the minivan market last year. Looks like Toyota and Honda will carry it again this year.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,542
    I can't help but wonder who the two Eurovan buyers were last month.

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    Those Autosite sales data are calendar year sales, so include some 2004 and some 2005 model year.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    MPV sales down for both October 2004 and YTD. Same with Windstar and Venture.
        ONLY Caravan, T&C, and Sedona have INCREASED for both October 2004 and YTD.
        Sienna and Quest are up for YTD only while Odyssey is up in October only. Odyssey drop for YTD is probably due to loss of production while changing from 2004 to 2005 model.
        The Quest is the BIGGEST winner in sales percentage increase for the year...but DaimlerChrysler still outsells Toyota and Honda combined.

        How can anyone think Toyota and Honda are carrying the minivan market after reading the link Steve provided?
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    That link was only for sales volume Hans...sales volume. Yes...your wonderful Chrysler Inc. is leading in total sales...everybody knows that as you mention it in just about every one of your posts. But, percentage increase in sales from previous years is stagnant on the Chrysler line.As well as most other lines for most of 2004.(The Edmunds link I read from reported Mazda MPV sales have increased this year) Chrysler sales are up barely a half a percentage point over the previous year. While Toyota Siennas are up around 90% from the previous year. Toyota Sienna sales for 2003 YTD 78,000 and for 2004 138,000. Now...would you rather have a 90% increase in sales OR would you like to have a 1% increase in sales? Honda is likely to see a similar increases with their 2005 Odyssey. That was my point.By the way...how's the 2005 Town & Country with stow and go, going? Also, I would think the Nissan Quest would have the highest in sales percentage increase this year...as there was no 2003 model.The Quest is falling horribly short of Nissans sales goals for 2004.
  • craigmricraigmri Posts: 243
    Every time I see a new Quest I try to like it but come away disliking it. Its a dynamic departure from the conventional minivan design of today and even though most people who dont like minivans but need a minivan say they want something different, I feel when it comes down to it people want a minivan to look like a minivan if that makes any sense.

    I always felt that being different for the sake of being different isnt a good move. Cadillac's new squared off designs do not appeal to me either. I consider Cadillac's to be in this same catagory. Gee, when I could buy a stylish and quality Lexus, Infiniti, BMW or Jaguar I wanna be different and buy this angular squared off cheezy plastic grilled American Car. There was a day(probably 50's and 60's) when Cadillac ruled the world. A shame.

    Craig
    '04 Sedona EX
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Posts: 2,554
    Sure, Sienna sales are up huge vs. last year. But you should acknowledge that is due in part to Toyota having a long-in-the-tooth former model that, from what I recall, wasn't selling all that well especially in light of the engine sludge fears.

    It's not like Toyota did a minor refreshing of Sienna for MY 2004 and STILL saw a 90% increase.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Well, for being long in the tooth...the pre 2004 Sienna's were rated amoung the best...just behind the Odyssey. I do know the resale value was pretty high on all the 2001 and 2002 models we looked at.For what we would have spent on a comparable 2002 Sienna...we got a brand new 2004 Mazda MPV for just a little over a grand more. Sure,first year redesigns generally do much better than its predecessor.But, usually not 90% better.The 2004 Sienna barely nudged out the "long in the tooth" design of the 1999-2004 Odyssey in Consumer Reports top minivan rating of 2004 models. It will be interesting to see what Siennas sales do this year with the new and improved Odyssey out.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    What about the 16.7 % DECREASE in sales for the Mazda MPV?
         Chrysler T&C with Stow-N-Go sales are up 3.3% this year over last...and Chrysler now sells almost 5 times as many T&C as Mazda sells MPV. Caravan sales are almost 10 times as much as MPV.
         Would you prefer to get paid $310,563 a year or $21,834? That is the ratio of DC minivan sales compared to the Mazda MPV so far this year.
         
         BTW, the Sienna sales are up 73.5 % and not the 90 % stated in posts # 202 and 205 ( 135,728 this year vs 78,231 last year = increase of 57,497...see link Steve provided).
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Sienna sales are DOWN 129 units Oct 2004 vs Oct 2003. (drop from 12,440 to 12,311)
         Odyssey sales are UP 1641 units Oct 2004 vs Oct 2003 (increase from 10,962 to 12,603).
         The Odyssey is once again outselling the Sienna.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    WOW... the Sienna is a whole 129 units down for October. I bet the execs at Toyota are about ready to jump out the window.Considering the 2005 Odyssey is a total redesign and Oct 2003 is when the 2004 Sienna was new to the market...I would think Toyota is pretty happy with their numbers.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    The 16.7% decrease in MPV sales are for the United States market. Worldwide(and North American)sales are up.The MPV sells really well in Japan and Canada.The link is in one of these boards somewhere...I couldn't locate it. You didn't have it pulled did ya Hans?? The Chrysler T&C didn't have Stow-N-Go last year.Chrysler is disappointed in the 3.3% considering all they have spent in advertising with the stow-n-going-going-gone.Again, we all know that Chrysler sells more than all other automotive companies combined...that is why they are the best.The recent article I read in the business section of a newpaper I subscribe to noted the Sienna to have sales increase of around 90%.Without this huge increase..overall minivan sales would have fallen.Ate to much Thanksgiving Day turkey...goodnight all.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Autosite would be more reliable than the business section of a newspaper. Here is the link for your convenience:

    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp

    Toyota Sienna sales may have been up 90 % for one time period but not for calendar year 2004 nor for the month of October 2004 vs 2003.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,915
    Great point about the overall minivan sales jipster. I knew the minivan market had dropped over the past 5 years...at a faster rate then car sales. I didn't know it was the Sienna that saved it.
  • Hello -

     

    I am writing to ask about putting 3 child seats across a bench seat in the second row of a minivan. I don't want to stuff them into the aft end of a vehicle (seem too far away, not sure about how "safe" this would be in a crash...outside the safety cell?)

     

    As I understand it, my <new> options are limited to Odyssey or Sienna. What about a non-stow and go Grand Caravan just prior to the recent freshening (2001-2004? Did they offer this as a factory option? Could I swap the position of the 3rd row seat and the captains chairs?

     

    Just looked at a 2001 Montana with 8 passenger seating, but it felt floaty and had terrible brakes (plus was filled with squeaks).

     

    Thanks for any thoughts on the matter
  • From what I understand from reading post here at Edmunds, both the Sienna and Ody have second row seating for three. But I'm not so sure that you would be able to fit three car seats in a row. One thing you can do is when you go out shopping, take the three car seats with you and see how they fit. As far as the GC, the stow n go was introduced in the 2005 model year. We have a 2001 GC to which we can remove the two captain chairs from the second row to place the 50/50 split third row beach. Not sure if it will fit three car seats though.
  • kinkokinko Posts: 48
    The the volume of sales depends on the production line capacity. My guess as more and more Sienna being rolled out the line at Indianna, we will see huge increase of sales. I wonder if the North American production line also supplies internation market. I know that the international market has more minivans models of the same brand to choose from. The size of the Sienna and Ody make it hard to drive around on the narrower streets outside of USA. They're both mainly built for the N. America market.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Excellent suggestion to take 3 seats and actually see how they fit.

         I do NOT think you could put 3 child seats in the 2nd row of the Odyssey as the middle portion looks too narrow.

         I think you could in the Sienna 8 passenger CE or LE as the Sienna ads show a child seat in the middle portion and the middle portion is slid forward to be close to the front seats.

         I have not tried putting 3 car seats into the 50/50 split third row bench when it was slid forward after removing the 2nd row bucket seats. It looks like it would probably hold 3 child car seats when placed as 2nd row but it definitely would not hold 3 in the rearward position where the space is too narrow.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    While not giving out the exact numbers, an article in todays paper reported Sienna sales have fallen since October of this year.While saying that the Odyssey and Chrysler T&C and Dodge Caravan "saw sharp sales gains for minivans in December" Not surprising about the Ody or Sienna sales numbers...though a bit surprised to see "sharp" sales increases for Chryslers lineup. Good for them....I guess the stow-n-go concept is going well for their sales.
  • I have been shopping for a minivan recently. I traded my 99 DC T&C for a 2005 Subaru Forester last summer and, while the Subie is a great car, we find that a big minivan is still the best for some uses, even though we are in our 60s and have no family to haul around on a regular basis.

     

    But the current offerings by Toyota, Honda and CD have me gnashing my teeth -- I haven't felt this frustrated except at election times in years!

     

    1. Toyota would be my first choice, BUT:

     

    a. Toyota's option packages drive me up the wall! There is no way I can put together a vehicle that will allow me to feel that I have gotten value for money. I owned two Toyota Corolla SR-5s back in the 70s-80s and they were great cars, but Toyota lost me when they brought out the first Camry. I wanted one very much, but one could get a manual tranny only on the cheaper series, which didn't offer a tachometer, while the deluxe series had a tach, but only came with an auto! Inscrutable, these Orientals.

     

    b. Honda has almost as bad a problem as Toyota of sheer bloody-minded thinking regarding option packages. I can't get some features I consider essential without taking a moonroof or other foolish fripperies.

     

    c. Beside, the only Toyota and Honda dealers that are within a reasonable distance from me both leave me with the feeling that they should be selling only cars that run on snake oil.

     

    d. The DC offerings allow me to put together a package that comes closest to my wants and needs, but DC is still saddled with archaic engines and 4-speed trannies. They desperately need a more modern 3.5L engine, a 5 speed tranny, or both.

     

    e. The Kia is too small and 1000 pounds too heavy. The Ford and GM offerings are pathetic in the extreme. The new VW won't arrive till God knows when. Mazda is too costly for its size.

     

    So I reckon I will bite the bullet for now, wait a couple of years and pick up a good used DC minivan with all the options I want, even if it has some I don't need, and let someone else take the heavy hit in depreciation.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Now hold on a minute veritasusa. I think I can put you in that new minivan you're wanting.No need to age two more years to get the van of your dreams.You don't need that big minivan anymore.You need that too costly for its size Mazda MPV.

      You were correct on most of your points.But, you have been misinformed if you believe Mazda is "too costly for its size". Current rebates on the 2004 models are at $4,000(still many available)and $2,000 with the 05's.Other incentives available...also you should be able to get that rebate off close to what invoice is. Get just the options you want.Probably get that Mazda MPV that lists for $27,000 for around $20,000.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Here are the explanations:

     

    1.) The new 2005 Ody was out by October which created lots of interest and excitement in buying it.

     

    2.) Hansienna did a great job of promoting his T & C in these forums.

     

    3.) 1.) and 2.) above spelt trouble for Sienna!

     

    LOL
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    You got that right Mac.

    Hans is gonna have a field day with T&C's new sales numbers.Look for Hans number of posts to go up 25% this quarter. ;-)
  • dszkldszkl Posts: 6
    I have this exact same problem right now with my 2002 MPV. I love the vehicle, but I will not put my kids in the 3rd row because of safety and convenience. Anyone have any other ideas? Isnt there an aftermarket seat? If not, I am going to have to blow a big wad of money on a Toyota I dont even want.
  • I, too, just recently went shopping for a minivan--our first. I really agree with most all of what veritasusa found.

     

    1) The Toyota, in addition to being really proud of its vehicles, pricewise, really did have the most confusing options packaging I have ever seen (surpassed only, and barely at that, by the BCS rating system for college bowl games).

     

    2) With Honda, if you want leather, you have to get a sun roof as part of that package, and the only way I, at 6' 4", could drive a full-size Honda "mini" van with a sun roof is with my head leaning over into the sun roof recess.

     

    3) While the DC had the same problem with the sun roof (anyone else notice how similar the various dimensions are between the 2005 Odyssey and the Grand Caravan?), at least the sun roof is a stand alone option. My other problem with the DC is that the only interior colors offered are gray and shades of gray (borrrrrring!!).

     

    4) The Kia still has roll out seats which, as someone else said, doesnt' work for me. I want at least a fold down third seat and I can live without the second row fold down seats if that is what takes away the headroom.

     

    5) All the reviews of the domestic vans (except DC) talk about cheap interior materials, limited innovation, and so-so fit and finish).

     

    6) My preference is still the MPV (styling, headroom, overall size) But the problem is for the approximate same price, or less, of fairly loaded MPV, all of the other vans have things like heated seats, automatic AC, dual power front seats, and some other things my wife and I have come to know and love with our VW Passats.

     

    So, like veritasusa, I'll wait for a couple of years and see what changes Mazda makes in the MPV, and see if VW gets a decent van out in our lifetime.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Posts: 2,554
    Kia is rolling out a new Sedona for the 2006 model year. They would be idiots NOT to equip it with a foldaway 3rd row seat. Chances are Sedona will be so equipped, possibly with a split foldaway.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    When Dodge came out with the stow n go seats and those nice discounts, it was a no brainer. It is just great how you can work the seating on the DGC, with the split third row seats and the second row seats. It seems like no matter what you want to carry in that van, you can work the seats to do it. With all the seats up, there is gobs of storage in that van. Seems like you can carry just about anything and not have it laying in the floor or on the seats.

     

    I just bought mine last week and have my tools, umbrella, window shade, blanket,pillow, inflatable bed and small 12 inch, three way power television and cooler in the van and they are all under the hidden floor.( I guess you can see my wife and I are going to do some serious traveling in this van.) I can take the cover off behind the third seat storage well and there is plenty of room to stack groceries that won't fall over.

     

    Then Dodge also gives me three electric doors, radio with CD/cassette, with six speakers, with volume and tuning on the steering wheel. Eight way power seat, trip meter, outside temp/ compass, garage door opener and MPG/distance on tank of gas, overhead computer. It not only has dual front air bags, but an air bag that protects the driver's knees. Power/heated outside mirrors, even the far, rear, wing windows are powered.

     

    But the big selling point was the storage space and not having to take the seats out. I don't like leaving things out that can be seen by looking through the windows. I like to keep my vehicles looking neat and clean. The Dodge G.C. lets me do all that. I just love this van.
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