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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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Comments

  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    It was uncooperative/arrogant DEALERSHIP Policy and not the salesmen at the Honda dealerships that made it impossible for me to buy an Odyssey.
    There were nice, friendly (NOT pushy) salesmen at more than one Honda dealership but the dealership policy at all dealerships requiring a $ 500 NON-refundable deposit just to to put my name on a waiting list for an Ocean Mist Metallic Odyssey EX (cloth) that killed my purchase of an Odyssey. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    There were nice, friendly (NOT pushy) salesmen at more than one Honda dealership but the dealership policy at all dealerships requiring a $ 500 NON-refundable deposit just to to put my name on a waiting list for an Ocean Mist Metallic Odyssey EX (cloth) that killed my purchase of an Odyssey.

    That's just bizarre! You've probably said it before, but I'm going to ask again (don't be mad! :blush: )...what part of the country are you in, and when were you purchasing the Odyssey? I can only assume that since you got a 2006 Sienna, you were also shopping 06 Odys too... which means that demand should've been pretty-well died down by then. A NON-refundable deposit, sheesh... I wouldn't have bought it either, and my family drives all Hondas!
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "...but the dealership policy at all dealerships requiring a $ 500 NON-refundable deposit just to to put my name on a waiting list..."

    Oh c'mon hans; I know you're smarter than that.

    First point: the manufacturer and/or the local distributor CAN'T dictate to individual dealerships policy regarding how dealerships handle waiting lists. The manufacturer and the distributor simply get the cars into the hands of the dealer; how the dealer doles them out is ENTIRELY up to them.

    Second point: why would a deposit on a HIGHLY DESIREABLE vehicle (it has a waiting list) be non-refundable? If a car comes in and your name is next on the list but you don't want it for WHATEVER reason (perhaps financial situation has changed, death in the family, etc.) the dealership would simply go down to the next name on the list. The dealership isn't 'out' anything by getting that vehicle.

    Third point: I was under the impression that non-refundable deposits were ILLEGAL. If the deposit is kept, what service has the dealership rendered to warrant keeping the deposit?

    Fourth point: Has it occurred to you that they wanted you to NOT shop elsewhere after any deposit was left and they throw out the 'non-refundable' line to keep you on the hook? And then, when questioned, they simply say "hey, our hands are tied. EVERY dealership must do this"?

    In other words, IMO you were lied to.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    I NEVER said that it was Honda policy to require a $ 500 NON-Refundable deposit. It was the policy of Willey Honda of Bountiful, Utah; Larry H. Miller Honda of Murrary, Utah; Ken Garff Honda of Salt Lake City, Utah; and Stockton to Malone Honda of Sandy, Utah. (I looked at all 4 dealerships but have since learned that Stockton to Malone Honda is actually a Larry H. Miller dealership).
    Ken Garff and Larry H. Miller own the majority of the dealerships of ALL makes in the Bountiful to Provo section of Utah. Ken Garff dealerships have the highest Document Fees while Larry H. Miller dealerships have the nasty habit of putting additional "Market Adjustment" add ons to the new vehicle pricing.

    It is probably true that the Sales Managers lied to the salesmen concerning "Non-Refundable" deposits.

    I specifically asked salesmen at the dealerships why the "Non-Refundable" deposit on the highly desireable Odyssey which sells very quickly. The answer from each was that if the deposit were Refundable, customers would place an order at all dealerships and take the first vehicle that came in....to which I replied "Why do you care? You have sold every Odyssey you could get?" and then walked out because I will not play their silly game. :shades:
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Thanks for the clarification. When you had stated (on more than one occasion) "all dealerships" I took that to mean that you were referring to all Honda dealerships; like you thought that was some sort of Honda policy. Can we assume the Toyota dealer was NOT owned by either Garff or Miller?

    I've no idea what Utah state law is; personally, I think that they may balk at returning any deposits but a simple letter from your family attorney (why does it have to come to this?) would lead to a 'magical' change of heart.

    "...and then walked out because I will not play their silly game."

    Absa-stinkin'-lutely. Slapping you in the face with some BS about not refunding a deposit is simply indicative of how those dealerships operate. Good dealerships should be rewarded with business. Bad dealerships should be rewarded with the showrooms devoid of customers.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Personally, when I was shopping for an Oddy.....ALL 5 Detroit area dealers I went to were arrogant and rude!!! All wanted way abover sticker (this was Dec 05) and had a common "take it or leave it" attitude. Ohh they were nice and gave a me a brochure and left me drive one....but after that it was terrible. I didn't even have a trade in!
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    You are correct. Neither Ken Garff nor Larry Miller own the Toyota dealerships in Bountiful or Salt Lake City. I did NOT like the Toyota dealership in Ogden, Utah but my friend does and has bought many Toyotas from them. I also did not like the Honda dealership in Laramie, Wyoming or Ft. Collins, Colorado.
    Ken Garff owns the Chrysler-Jeep-Dodge dealership in a suburb of Salt Lake City and that dealership provided me excellent service on my 2002 Chrysler T&C LX even though I did not buy it from them.
    Interestingly, one friend likes Larry Miller Toyota in Murray but our mutual friend did not and the conversations about the 2 dealerships gets quite "warm". It is nice to have many dealerships for any brand within 50 miles of my home.
    There is apparently a wide variety of policies within the various dealerships owned by Ken Garff and Larry Miller although the Document Fees are the same at all Ken Garff and are different than those at all Larry Miller dealerships. :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Personally, when I was shopping for an Oddy.....ALL 5 Detroit area dealers I went to were arrogant and rude!!! All wanted way abover sticker (this was Dec 05) and had a common "take it or leave it" attitude. Ohh they were nice and gave a me a brochure and left me drive one....but after that it was terrible. I didn't even have a trade in!

    I wonder if the market had THAT much of a difference in the midwest versus the southeast? My great aunt who bought her Odyssey in December of 2004 (2005 model, bought day-after-christmas) paid $1,200 under sticker ($27,250, MSRP was $28,495 - EX Cloth). She had a trade-in, in which she was given the Kelley Blue Book "Good" value (it was well worn, but not in BAD shape). I don't know of the interest rate, but I don't believe it was astronomical. Just goes to show how different markets and different individual dealerships treat customers entirely different. The dealer we buy from (it's almost a family tradition) has a great reputation for excellent service, and has won several President's Awards for service excellence (out of many regional dealerships, Neil Bonnett Honda won 2000, 2001, and 2003, I believe). Impressive for this dealership, sad for those in your area, and I don't blame you for walking out!

    It's sad, really.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168

    I wonder if the market had THAT much of a difference in the midwest versus the southeast?


    I would think there are more Honda dealers, and more competition amongst them in the SW? Michigan is the exact opposite of the rest of the US.....here the domestics rule, along with Unions etc... In other parts of the country, the consumer rule and dealers are open late (some 24/7) and even weekends!! Try buying a car on a Sat in Michigan!!! Don't even think of buying one on Sunday!!! Up until 10 years ago, if you owned an import dealership and tried opening it on a Sat, you had your windows shot out (I'm NOT kidding)!!!!
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Posts: 265
    "I wonder if the market had THAT much of a difference in the midwest versus the southeast?"

    It varies by region, time, dealership and even salesperson. Six years ago, Chicago dealers were all charging MSRP or more and some required non-refundable deposits on the Odyssey. I had to go 60 miles just to find a dealer that wasn't going to play games with their waiting list and sell to the highest bidder for thousands over MSRP or gouge on required protection packages.

    Meanwhile, the closest dealers still called me (and probably everyone else on their list) every week because "someone opted out" or they got an "additional shipment". Of course, they were just seeing if someone lower on the list would pay more than those above them.

    One year ago, it was quite different. Most dealers were bending over backwards and some were selling Odysseys at or under invoice. I could have held a grudge and ruled out the Odyssey or driven 60 miles again to avoid the nearby dealers. Instead I emailed a number of Honda dealers. This time, one of the closest dealers who played the waiting list games and was somewhat sleazy and rude last time was very reasonable. $300 under invoice and no games at all. The price reports are $1000 or more under invoice, today.

    Bad dealerships and owner groups exist for almost every make. If you want to exclude a brand or model because of a dealership experience, you're only limiting your options. Unless, of course, that's the only nearby dealer and they have poor service as well. If you despise dealership interaction, you can always try to minimize it with carsdirect.com or use a buying club like Costco, Sams, or autobytel.com . You may not get a better price, but hopefully you can work around the dealership hassle to some extent.
  • cpsdarrencpsdarren Posts: 265
    "Second point: why would a deposit on a HIGHLY DESIREABLE vehicle (it has a waiting list) be non-refundable? If a car comes in and your name is next on the list but you don't want it for WHATEVER reason (perhaps financial situation has changed, death in the family, etc.) the dealership would simply go down to the next name on the list. The dealership isn't 'out' anything by getting that vehicle"

    This one is easy. If you end up buying elsewhere, they'll sell the vehicle to the next person on the list allright, but they want to keep your deposit money, too.

    For every way the dealership makes it more difficult to get your deposit back, someone will just give up and let them keep it. Like you said, it also tends to limit people from shopping elsewhere. At one point in my purchase last year, I had deposits at two Toyota dealers and one Honda dealer. I had no problems getting two of them back. One was simply done by phone, the other made me come in to talk to a sales manager. Granted, I made sure it was clear on the purchase forms that the deposits were refundable for all three.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    And I do NOT own an Odyssey. :shades:
    The DC minivans have the most attractive exterior styling and offer more nice features for less money (Actual price paid...NOT the MSRP)than the Odyssey but the Odyssey has the most comfortable seats for all 7 or 8 passengers and the best folding mechanism for the 3rd row 60/40 split folding seat.
    The Quest is the only minivan with uglier exterior styling than the Sienna and the GM offerings are a poorly executed attempt to fool people into thinking they are "Crossover" vehicles instead of simply their old, poorly designed minivan with an ugly front end. :sick: Ford also tries to fool people with their Freestyle and Mercury clone. :sick:
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,564
    While I have never had the opportunity to fold an Odyssey third row seat, I cannot imagine it being much easier than it is in the Stow and Go Grand Caravan/Town and Country.
    We just bought a new Grand Caravan with Stow and Go about 6 weeks ago, to replace our 1996 short wheel base Caravan, so I definitely have experience with Stow and Go.

    Just a pull on three numbered straps and down each section goes. Easy to bring back up as well. Also, the seat can be configured for tailgating. Not sure if Odyssey has that option at all.

    Of course, no struggling to remove the second row seats, either, with the Stow and Go feature.

    Also got it for an excellent price, over $7100 off MSRP. Actual cost was over $2000 less than we paid for a short wheel base 1996 Caravan new ten years ago.
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    "Freestyle and Mercury clone"

    You mean the Freestar, not Freestyle, which doesn't have a Mercury clone. The Freestyle isn't a minivan, but the Freestar is.
  • I have recently rented a Toyota Sienna, and have sat in a Honda Odyssey. I have also ridden in the Chrysler minivans. I strongly disagree. The Odyssey does not have comfortable seats. They are very poorly designed since they have excessive "flexion" positioning. The Honda dealer acknowledged that this is a major problem with all Hondas, actually. When you sit in a Honda Odyssey, the bottom cushion is excessively tipped so that considerable pressure is put on the L4 and L5 vertabrae discs. This is also the case for the Toyota Sienna. It is like "sitting in a well" as someone else described it. In addition, the rear seats on these vehicles are severely compromised by the "Stow-N-Go" or "Magic Seat" concepts. These vans sit so low to the ground that they routinely scrape bottom as well. The steering on the Toyota Sienna had such a fast turning ratio that it constantly required attention trying to keep it straight on the highway. Honda Odysseys have had a lot of transmission problems as do the Chryslers, and the Toyota recalls are mounting. The new media is not stating the true situation.

    After carefully researching the numerous vans out there, we purchased a 2006 Chevy Uplander with the 3900 engine. It is not poorly executed at all. In fact, we have had NO problems with it (the average is 2 complaints per vehicle, so we are well ahead of the game). The fit and finish is excellent, and the 3900 engine with variable valve timing is quiet, smooth, has plenty of low end torque, and does not give an annoying moan every time you accelerate like the Toyota Sienna. The dash display is excellent and easy to read, unlike the Honda Odyssey which is frequently blocked by the steering wheel, and the distracting bright blue illumination in the Toyota Sienna. All of the controls are well placed, unlike the Honda Odyssey which has severe ergonomic problems with the dash controls. The A/C can freeze the rear passengers out on the hottest 105 degree day in Tucson AZ. The seats in the back are very comfortable for adults, not just kids. The SUV concept is great, giving an SUV-like ride with plenty of height for good viewing. It can carry a full spare tire if desired, unlike the others. The interior detailing is impressive, with fine stitching on the leather that covers the doors. The seats can be positioned to be back-friendly, so our vertebrae are happy. The front end looks nice, in our opinion, and many others have commented on this as well. These vehicles are being produced at a rate of 1 a minute over two shifts (over 100,000 a year), so you will see more of them. And this is a good thing, because they are excellent vehicles. :)
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Glad you like the Uplander as GM has not had much success selling their "Crossover" vehicles that are just slightly warmed over versions of the former minivan offerings from GM. Our neighbor had a Pontiac Montana and says it was a piece of junk and did not carry much more cargo than the PT Cruiser that replaced the Montana.
    According to Edmunds pricing, the 3900 engine was NOT offered in the 2006 Uplander but became available in the 2007 model. Does Edmunds pricing need an update for 2006 Uplander?
    Did GM make a change in seating for the 2007 models? The rear seats were NOT comfortable for adults and were very hard to access compared to the rear seats of the Odyssey, Sienna, and DC minivans when I sat in the Uplander at the Annual Auto Show this year.
    I have NEVER had any difficulty keeping my 2006 Sienna LE on the road...even with heavy crosswinds on I-15 in southern Utah, southern Nevada, and the Mojave desert of southern California nor did I have any difficulty with my 2002 T&C LX on the same highway.
  • aus_nicaus_nic Posts: 6
    Hi. I am new so I appologise if I make any errors. Desperately would like advice and recomm. as we are about to buy a minivan for the first time and I am torn between the choices - Ody., Sienna,DTC,DGC and Uplander?
    I have read through as many reviews and threads as I could lately but have a "high needs" 6mth old,4 & 8yr old and husband works 2 jobs so time is limited.
    With 3 kids and large dog space and convience are required with dvd and comfort paramount as long drives to family are frequent. Reliability is also a must!!. Need to be able to tow small loads occasionally and have bike rack on back for bikes also. Would like as many features for value as poss.
    Plan on having for a long time but dont want to get burnt on resale value just in case (as have with current cars :cry: )
    Any advise would be greatly appreciated as going to start test drives over next couple of days. Have a few offers for prices at or around invoice on Ody and Sienna but yet to see if can get down lower or best trade as too not have too much neg. value on current car :confuse: .
    Thankyou in advance :) .
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    BUY what you and your husband like the best. All vehicles are now reliable but you could get a lemon :lemon: of any brand. Read in Problems Forums here in the Town Hall and you can find dissatisfied owners of EVERY brand. :shades:
    I think the Odyssey is the best minivan but costs too much and many Odyssey dealers are smug and arrogant.
    I felt the Uplander had THE LEAST comfortable 3rd row seating and also has the least cargo capacity.
    The Sienna is tied with the Odyssey for the best "perceived" reliability but I do NOT like my 2006 Sienna LE after driving a lower priced 2002 Chrysler T&C LX. The Sienna is noisier on the highway but does get slightly better gas mileage than did the T&C.
    I had to have the driver's side power window replaced in my T&C but all it cost was the $ 100 deductible on the Extended Warranty the first owner bought. My daughter is driving a 1999 GC that has 90,000 miles and it has no problems. My sister just got a nice used 2005 Grand Caravan because her 1986 Caravan went 170,000 miles with no problems.
    I plan to trade my 2006 Sienna on a 2006 GC or T&C if a DaimlerChrysler dealer will give me the Trade-In quoted in Edmund's or KBB since I just do NOT like the Sienna as well as my former T&C. :shades:
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    The Ody and Sienna matchup well in most of the criteria you described. Since you say comfort is "paramount", and the Sienna has a quieter and more comfortable ride...I would go with the Sienna if I were you. A new Sienna currently comes with a $1,000 rebate.

    Maybe Hans can give you a good deal on his slightly used LE?
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Since you say comfort is "paramount", and the Sienna has a quieter and more comfortable ride...I would go with the Sienna."

    Another thing to consider (if you intend some occasional light towing) is that a 'tow package' (consisting of transmission cooler, PS cooler, wiring, etc.) is standard equipment on the Sienna but optional on the Odyssey.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Need to be able to tow small loads occasionally and have bike rack on back for bikes also. Would like as many features for value as poss.

    I have a DCX GC SXT with tow package....if you're thinking of towing a small RV etc, you cant' beat it. It's factory installed with MANY extras not available on others - auto leveling shocks, HD tranny cooler, engine cooler, and steering cooler and HD battery and wiring...I think it's about $400!! You do need to add your own hitch ($100). But you get a tow rating of 3800lbs.

    Well worth it if you go with DCX van.
  • aus_nicaus_nic Posts: 6
    Thankyou all for your input. Ultimately I will drive them all and see which fits better. We did rent a sienna back at easter for a week to do the 1200 mi. round trip to family and while it was pretty good I recall it driving a bit like a bus (prob because I am used to Mit. Eclipse for 3 yrs now :) ) but it seemed to handle well? Spent most of time in 2nd row with baby though and didn't think it was very comfortable/roomy-also didnt like that rear power adapter was behind upper edge of 3rd row seat as was very hard for kids to keep gameboy/dvd pluged in :( . I did like hard seat back and fold down on pass. front seat for changing baby on though. But of course I am not sure what model this was so I will give them a shot but right now the price with the options I want is bit ridiculous :mad: .
    I am taking a good look at DGC sxt spec.edt. & spring sp. edt. now and they seem better priced with options I want-wont have tow pakage though but is rated for 1800lbs without? Not sure about long term reliabily and resale but as you say you take that gamble with any car :confuse: . Will try to go test some out tomorrow and see how I go? Thanks again ;) .
  • psamynpsamyn Posts: 1
    was amazed that the sienna doesn't have a movable gas pedal. Both the odyssey and the T&C do. How is it that they could miss such a fundamental detail? I am short and it's a deal-braker for me (unless of course I want to look like one of those grandmas who hug the wheel :]).
  • aus_nicaus_nic Posts: 6
    I strongly agree and it seems I can get power pedals in the DGC sxt sp.edt. as option with dvd, leath. and more with much lower total price than Ody. similarly equip.(cant find one so far with nav. syst. also though as could with Ody. but at about $2500 cheaper for starting offer on DGC I can get the nav syst. after markt later if I want :)
    Being short also I think those pedals will break the deal for me too as I think thats partly why I didnt like driving the sienna that much before? Not keen on going for the grandma look for looooong time yet ;) .
  • bogz11bogz11 Posts: 10
    I'M INTERESTED IN PURCHASING A MINIVAN FOR THE FIRST TIME AND AM PRETTY SET ON THE TOYOTA SIENNA DUE TO POWER SLIDING DOOR WINDOWS. I'M JUST NOT SURE IF IT'S WORTH BUYING NEW OR SOMETHING USED W/LOW MILES. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT A GOOD DEAL WOULD BE ON A 2006 SIENNA IN THE ROCKFORD,ILLINOIS AREA. THANKS FOR YOU HELP :blush:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Be aware that other vans offer power doors WITH power windows in those doors; not just Sienna. (Odyssey has this feature too, among others I believe).

    And, ALL CAPS makes the posts harder to read. If you don't mind using lowercase, I think you'll find it easier on the eyes to read! Thanks a lot bogz11, and if you stick with your choice for the Sienna, good luck on a great deal!
  • bogz11bogz11 Posts: 10
    Sorry about the caps first time user! What do you feel is the best van on the market and how does the odyssey compare in price to the sienna? :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, best van has a lot of room for preference. The Odyssey handles much better than Sienna(the Odyssey feels like my Accord behind the wheel - a good thing!), where the Sienna rides much softer/smoother. The Sienna is also a bit quieter. They are nearly the same in price, when you option the Sienna like an Odyssey, although I've heard a few instances of the Sienna costing slightly more than the Odyssey.

    Have you considered any other makes of van?

    If you would consider Dodge/Chrysler, or Kia/Hyundai, they have new vans for the price of the 1 or 2 year old Honda and Toyota. I've read where one buyer actually paid $7,100 under MSRP on a year-end sale of a Dodge Grand Caravan.

    Don't worry about the CAPS, its an easy mistake to make, and I hope I didn't come off as mean! :)
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Power windows in sliding doors have VERY little value. My 2006 Sienna has them but you could cool down a hot vehicle much more quickly using a power liftgate and power sliding doors on both sides.
    The separately controlled temperature for both driver and front passenger in the Odyssey EX or almost any DaimlerChrysler minivan has MUCH greater value than the power windows in the sliding doors.
    My 2006 Sienna LE has more wind noise at highway speeds than did the 2002 T&C LX and I think the noise came from the windows in the sliding doors whereas the T&C sliding door windows are flush with the side of the vehicle. The T&C and GC are the quietest minivans on the highway but the engines are not as quiet when accelerating as the Ody or Sienna engine.
  • garandmangarandman Posts: 524
    With 3 kids and large dog space and convience are required with dvd and comfort paramount as long drives to family are frequent. Reliability is also a must!!. Need to be able to tow small loads occasionally and have bike rack on back for bikes also. Would like as many features for value as poss.

    The Nissan Quest is often overlooked despite having many advantages. They did not sell well when introduced in 2004 because of build problems in the new Mississippi assembly plant. And the speedometer was in the central console - which was OK for Scion or Mini owners but not the conservative minivan market.

    The 07 Quest has been facelifted to make it more like other vans. And there is a $3,000 discount on leftover 2006's.

    We bought an 05 Quest SL with a number of options for a little over $25,000. The side doors open wider than other vans; the second row seats have the best tradeoff between foldability and comfort of any van on the market; the handling and performance with the absolutely terrific Nissan V6 is great. We log all fuel use and have averaged 22.3 - 23.1 mpg in 5,000 mile blocks from new. It currently has 34,000 miles on it.

    The windows do not roll down in the center sliders, and the rear seat is a single piece, if that's important to you. We regularly use the back row for 3 people so that was a plus for us. the roof racks aren't as sturdy as some others but accomodates our Yakima rocketbox with no problems.

    Looks are subjective and the Quest is polarizing: love it or hate it. Most don't realize the visibility to the front and sides is better than competitors because of the way it is shaped.

    When it comes to value, though, it's tough to beat the DC vans. We have a 99 Caravan that now has 95,000 miles on it as well. The engine is not as powerful but it handles well, has lots of room, and cost of pwnership has been very low.

    I found the following message interesting, sent me by a friend. not sure of the data source, probably an industry magazine.

    Minivan (and wannabe) sales Jan06-May06:

    Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan - 103,876
    Honda Odyssey - 72,941
    Chrysler Town & Country - 68,943
    Toyota Sienna - 67,404
    Chrysler Pacifica - 35,952
    Ford Freestar - 29,569
    Ford Freestyle - 28,634
    Kia Sedona - 26,215
    Chevrolet Uplander - 25,610
    Nissan Quest - 12,186
    Mercedes-Benz R-Class - 8,227
    Mazda5 - 7,806
    Mazda MPV - 5,939
    Buick Terraza - 5,339
    Mercury Monterrey - 1,811
    Hyundai Entourage - 1,194 (went on sale May 2006)

    Interesting that
    - Dodge is still #1
    - Dodge + Chrysler > Honda + Toyota
    - Dodge Caravan + Town & Country + Pacifica > Honda + Toyota + Ford
    - Pacifica + Freestyle (large crossovers) together are within 3,000 units of Honda.
    - Mazda5 readily outselling MPV despite demand 30% above expected.
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