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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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Comments

  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,564
    Yes, I realize that buying a late model used one is more economical than buying new. Since I keep them ten years minimum, by buying a new one I know what the maintenance history of the vehicle is throughout my ownership, as I am in charge of it.

    And yes, I am even more amazed at anyone paying $45K for an SUV.

    I guess we have beat this subject to death, so buy whatever you want and enjoy it, just don't get yourself into economic duress because of it.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "I guess we have beat this subject to death, so buy whatever you want and enjoy it, just don't get yourself into economic duress because of it."

    Agreed. :)

    Life's too short for ANY of us to sit here, in our own little bubble, and attempt to pass some sort of judgement on somebody else's buying decision. And yes, I know that isn't your intent. But I also know that's something that we ALL indulge in from time to time (rorr most certainly included).

    As far as I'm concerned, the whole purpose of this thread SHOULD be simply informing folks interested in a minivan purchase about what the various differences are between the players in this market, on as much of a subjective basis as reasonable, and let THEM set their own priorities for making a decision.

    I'm going to make a conscious decision to try and NOT 'talk' somebody into an Ody purchase, because their wants/needs/situation are probably NOT the same as mine. After all, this isn't a football game; neither one of us gets more 'points' for convincing someone that an Ody (or DGC) is the BEST van for them. And I don't need to have my purchase validated by someone else's approval of my choice.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Oh, so you must have the average problem count for each of the hundreds of thousands of Odysseys and millions of Dodge/Chrysler minivans. Mind sharing those statistics?

    As we ALL know (and has been pointed out by the host on different boards - it is, after all, common sense) not every post is a reported problem. Even I have posted on the Odyssey boards, giving solutions and opinions.

    Just a sampling from the Odyssey "Problems" Board

    Post #793 - Shopper asking about used pricing. Not a problem.

    Post #794 - Owner wrecked their van, asking about body shop repairs. Not a problem.

    Post #803 - Owner doesn't like the folding tray table, prefers a console. Is this a "problem" with the car? Nope, its how it was made. It would be like me saying "I don't like the Caravan's steering wheel design. Not a problem with the vehicle.

    Post #805 - A Response to Post #803, explaining the merits of a table vs. console in a van. Not a problem.

    These aren't ALL the posts from 793-811 (the most current) that ARE NOT problems, but only a few. Most are responses to other people, some aren't even related to the board!

    Also, not everyone who posts on a particular board currently OWNS that particular vehicle. I'm on a minivan board, know what my family has in the garage? Three Accord Sedans, a 96, an 05, and my new 06.

    We had a 2000 Odyssey for 5 1/2 years, and all of its problems could be summed up in two words...

    Squeaky seat.

    Do I think that it is "Given" that Hondas are more reliable than Dodge's? Well, that depends on what data you look at, but Consumer Reports (which is pretty widely read best I can tell) says that the Odyssey is better than the Chrysler products (Consumer Reports stated that they could not recommend the DCX vans because its reliability had once again dropped below average). Is the Odyssey perfect though? Certainly not.

    We have had 2 Chryslers, both of which we had for less than a year, mainly because between the two of them, they spent 7 months in a repair shop (transmissions, suspension rebuilds, rattles galore). My father's last Chrysler was a Sebring Convertible; he hated it so badly after a year that he sold it, and all he took such a hit in resale that he could only go to a Civic EX, but he was oh-so-happy to do so just to dump the Chrysler. The reason he got rid of the Sebring? It had over 35,000 miles on it and the warranty would expire at 36k. He couldn't afford to do all the work once the warranty expired.

    Hopefully Chrysler has come a long LONG LONG way in reliability, because they were at the bottom of the pool back when we had them.


    You can pick and quibble specific posts all day long if you want. There are posts like those in the DCX area too but I won't play that game. The Oddy even has specific areas to address problems. And you may tout all your problems with your DCX products but it works boths ways...Honda has their share of replacing engines/trannys and problems too!

    The Oddy is as far from perfect as the DCX vans!

    I'm on my 3rd trouble free DCX van, the previous 2 were company vehicles that I totally abused up to 80k miles without issues!! I have many friends that have been Caravan owners since you were in diapers.
  • You can pick and quibble specific posts all day long if you want. There are posts like those in the DCX area too but I won't play that game. The Oddy even has specific areas to address problems. And you may tout all your problems with your DCX van but it works boths ways...Honda has their share of replacing engines/trannys and problems too!

    The Oddy is as far from perfect as the DCX vans!


    I hope you mean "as are the DCX vans (meaning both are far from perfect)". If so, I agree whole-heartedly. I'll even give you a list of things that I think should be different on the Odyssey, if that would help you realize that I'm not a worshipper at the Honda Temple.

    I'm on my 3rd trouble free DCX van, the previous 2 were company vehicles that I totally abused up to 80k miles without issues!! I have many friends that have been Caravan owners since you were in diapers.

    Bringing up my relative youth again, I see...

    You'll notice I was not the one saying Honda was perfect, and that Dodge was bad. The only thing I said derogotory about Dodge I paraphrased from Consumer Reports. I don't believe that it's a fair assessment to make a general statement that all Hondas are better than Dodges, I don't necessarily agree with that.

    I just find fault with the "post-counting dead-horse" that has been beaten, bloodied, had surgery, only to finally die. Now it has been resurrected, and I surely don't think we all need to beat the horse again. Let it run free.

    You can pick and quibble specific posts all day long if you want. There are posts like those in the DCX area too but I won't play that game.

    Um, you are the one who said the proverbial "play-ball" of that 'game' by mentioning counting posts to determine reliability.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "You can pick and quibble specific posts all day long if you want. There are posts like those in the DCX area too but I won't play that game."

    Yes.

    Except thegraduate wasn't the one making statements like "that sells half as many units, it easily has twice the problems." The ONLY thing he was doing was pointing out you can't look at post count to determine the number of problems; which is what it APPEARED you were doing. Might is also be possible that someone dropping $30k+ on a minivan MIGHT be a bit less forgiving of misc. small issues (and therefore more prone to complain) than someone dropping $20k on a minivan (who may have the same or similar issues but NOT complain)?

    "The Oddy even has specific areas to address problems."

    Yep. Virtually ANY vehicle model with problems has them in specific areas. That doesn't mean that every example of that model WILL have those problems.

    "The Oddy is as far from perfect as the DCX vans!"

    No way to tell that from a message board.

    "I'm on my 3rd trouble free DCX van, the previous 2 were company vehicles that I totally abused up to 80k miles without issues!!"

    If you have a good history with DCX, you should stick with DCX. What happened after 80k miles? Personally, I expect (EXPECT) to get twice that mileage out of our Ody.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    No way to tell that from a message board.

    Sure you can. Just look at the "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" board. Most of that board is dedicated to transmission shifting issues. You see a pattern of problems develop over a period of time...and 9 times out of 10 they end up in Consumer Reports reliability surveys as a "problem". :P
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Odyssey board a few years back have people posting about problematic transmissions? Or was it a year ago? I can't remember....
  • Transmissions were a weak point in the 1999-2001 Odyssey's, so I've heard. Our 2000 model was faultless, but that doesn't mean everyone's was.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    I have read and re-read my 2006 Sienna brochure and can find NO power liftgate as standard or even as an option on ANY Sienna including the XLE and Limited.
    However, a person can get the Power folding/adjustable 60/40 Split and Stow 3rd Row seat in the Limited ONLY. It is included in Limited PKG # 3. No mention of a power lift gate in any Sienna. :sick:
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    My son never had any transmission problems with his 2001 Odyssey EX which he no longer has because it was totalled when a careless driver who had too much to drink was talking on the cell phone and ran into the Odyssey.
    Guess what? He replaced it with a 2006 Odyssey EX-L which he, his wife, and 3 children love. :shades:
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Except thegraduate wasn't the one making statements like "that sells half as many units, it easily has twice the problems." The ONLY thing he was doing was pointing out you can't look at post count to determine the number of problems; which is what it APPEARED you were doing. Might is also be possible that someone dropping $30k+ on a minivan MIGHT be a bit less forgiving of misc. small issues (and therefore more prone to complain) than someone dropping $20k on a minivan (who may have the same or similar issues but NOT complain)?

    GENERALLY, looking at the vast numbers of problem areas on this and others even, I don't know anyone who could "assume Honda is better" for reliability. I would assume all customers, paying for a new vehicle would be just a demanding. Who's to say someone who's earning $40k/year and plunking $20k of it down for a Minivan would have lower expectations? How bout this: Honda sells half as many units yet has its fair share of problems.

    No way to tell that from a message board.

    People will come to Edmunds and check out the owner's ratings to help form an opinion. You can also get a sense for problems to look out for here.

    After 80k miles I get a new vehicle. I also had a 1983 Cavalier that I put 190k miles on.....just brakes, exhaust, plugs/wires, oil changes and a starter!!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    You'll notice I was not the one saying Honda was perfect, and that Dodge was bad. The only thing I said derogotory about Dodge I paraphrased from Consumer Reports. I don't believe that it's a fair assessment to make a general statement that all Hondas are better than Dodges, I don't necessarily agree with that.

    You also went on to describe all your personal problems with DCX and their time in the repair shop etc...

    My initial statement was quite str8 forward.....responding to: Also, not sure what the reliability differences are -- but assume Honda is better. Less hassle.

    I don't think that's a given, based on the Honda problems and solutions on Edmunds. For a Minivan that sells half as many units, it easily has twice the problems.


    That is a general assessment, I'm not advocating going in and counting/reviewing each problem post.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    " I don't know anyone who could "assume Honda is better" for reliability."

    In thinking back through the issues brought up on the Ody P&S board, I can't recall ANY issues dealing with reliability. There have been issues related to various noises, fit/finish, etc. but I can't recall anyone complaining about any sort of functional reliability. I'm not about to go back and reread 800 odd posts to verify that however.

    "I would assume all customers, paying for a new vehicle would be just a demanding. Who's to say someone who's earning $40k/year and plunking $20k of it down for a Minivan would have lower expectations?"

    In essense, you are assuming that everyone has the same level of expectations. That would not be the case. I can tell you that just within my own family, we have different expectations; VASTLY different expectations. The mere fact that there are hundreds of different models of vehicles for sale, to meet virtually every different type of car buyer, tells me that there is a vast range of owner expectations.

    And I think it is safe to say that someone spending more EXPECTS more. Speaking personally, if I spend more, I expect more.

    "How bout this: Honda sells half as many units yet has its fair share of problems."

    YES!!!!

    I can certainly agree with that.

    "I also had a 1983 Cavalier that I put 190k miles on.....just brakes, exhaust, plugs/wires, oil changes and a starter!!"

    And my wife had a '91 Sunbird that went around 120k with similar repair history. I can't recall it ever leaving her stranded, but it was STILL a hunk of junk full of buzzes/rattles/groans, anemic power, pisspoor fuel economy, and just generally evil handling traits.....but hey, it only needed brakes, oil changes, and a couple of alternators! What a deal!

    After driving first a Toyota and now a Honda, let's just say that now HER expectations are a bit higher....
  • You'll notice I was not the one saying Honda was perfect, and that Dodge was bad. The only thing I said derogotory about Dodge I paraphrased from Consumer Reports. I don't believe that it's a fair assessment to make a general statement that all Hondas are better than Dodges, I don't necessarily agree with that.

    You also went on to describe all your personal problems with DCX and their time in the repair shop etc...

    My initial statement was quite str8 forward.....responding to: Also, not sure what the reliability differences are -- but assume Honda is better. Less hassle.


    I don't consider giving personal experiences as "derogatory." It is no different than you telling of your experiences; it isn't my fault that we had two Chryslers with major problems, but it is fact.

    I also did not make the statement about "assume Honda is Better" now did I? Nope. Nor did I respond to that, except to agree with you. Where I completely disagreed with you was where "counting posts" becomes a clear view of which is more reliable. In my opinion, it is most definitely not. It doesn't mean that I agree with the statement from earlier either though, the one that said "assume Honda's are better."
  • aaron_taaron_t Posts: 301
    It's more about standard of living and lifestyle. I generally prefer and buy higher equipment/trim level vehicles. I live the light and fresh air that sunroofs provide. Leather seats are more comfortable and generally the only way to get heated seats for the cooler months. I miss HID lighting from one of my vehicles. Memory seats are great since my wife and I often trade commuting vehicles.

    While one can save money with cheaper equipment and invest elsewhere, what will he invest for? Ultimately he has to spend it on something, assuming it is disposable or he even has it. Some chose to spend it now to have a nicer/more comfortable lifestyle. Others will chose to save it for future time. If one can only afford a $20k vehicle, then there are other factors when considering a used Hod/Toy vs. a new DCX/other, but that's a different situation.

    Let's face it. Spending more than $2k/yr on transpiration is discretionary. Want, want, want. Everyone has a different amount of it (wants and income). :)
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Accurately describes my disappointment with the 2006 Sienna LE. :sick:
    It cost more than my 2002 T&C LX and I expected it to be superior...especially after reading comments in CR, Edmunds, MT, etc.
    YES, I am disappointed because the less expensive T&C LX was quieter on the highway and had many nice features NOT contained on the Sienna.
    The Sienna has slightly more power and gets slightly better gas mileage but overall it does NOT provide me the value that was provided by the T&C LX. (I would have probably been disappointed with an Odyssey EX if I had purchased it instead of the Sienna LE...The Odyssey has NO Trip computer with compass and outside temperature. Just having outside temperature would not compensate for the complete overhead console unit in the T&C.)
    IF I were an aggressive driver, I would probably prefer the Odyssey which handles the best and has the most power of the quality minivans. :shades:
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    So, do you think you are MORE apt to post about minor annoyances that you've had with your Sienna because of the lack of certain features/lack of value than you would with similar annoyances in a van WITH your desired features?

    BTW - according to the Toyota website regarding the power rear hatch on the Sienna:

    http://www.toyota.com/sienna/models.html

    Under the 'Exterior Features' section, it has this:

    "Dual power sliding doors with power windows and power rear door" and shows it as Standard on the XLE and XLE Limited.

    Check your brochure again. The Power Rear Door is not listed separately; it is listed with the power sliding doors.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    THANKS for the clarification. Toyota does NOT use normal terms for the rear opening that DaimlerChrysler and Honda use and I did not notice "power rear door" in connection with "Dual power sliding doors with power windows and power rear door. " :shades:
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    No I am not more apt to post about Sienna lack of features than I was when I posted that the driver's seat of my 02 T&C LX was not comfortable and I did not like the rapid accumulation of corrosive disc brake pad dust on the T&C. :shades:
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    I don't consider giving personal experiences as "derogatory." It is no different than you telling of your experiences; it isn't my fault that we had two Chryslers with major problems, but it is fact.

    I didn't mention my personal experience with a 1979 Civic HB or my 1990 Acura Integra, because it could be considered "derogatory". I only detailed my positive experiences to counter your bad experiences.
  • I only detailed my positive experiences to counter your bad experiences.

    Ok, I didn't have a problem with you posting things. You are who said that I was posting derogatory comments about Dodge/Chrysler, when all I did was tell of our Chrysler problems.

    Tell all the experiences you want, that doesn't bother me! You've had good experience with Chrysler; I think that's great, because improved competition is always good for the buyer.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Ok, I didn't have a problem with you posting things. You are who said that I was posting derogatory comments about Dodge/Chrysler, when all I did was tell of our Chrysler problems. Yes, all your negative experiences. Exactly!
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Yes. All of your negative experiences.

    He (graduate) had two Chrysler vehicles kept for less than a year apiece, in which together they were in the repair shop for a total of 7 months. Sounds like an all around negative experience to me. I'm sure it was probably difficult to enjoy the comfortable drivers seat, quiet van, and other features... with all the rattles, the transmission falling out, and constantly being in the repair shop.
  • Um, sorry, we had no positive experiences with Chrysler. I think you are missing my point...you post your experiences, all of them, where I did the same. I could start posting things like:

    Our Odyssey is perfect and Chrysler sucks, yadda yadda yadda... but that would be stupid, and make no sense. I used our experiences, that's it.
  • Here's a general comment. This thread is the most mean-spirited, argumentative thread on Edmunds.com.

    I can't imagine anyone would want to post a question here about minivan shopping - it would just incite further venom.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Um, sorry, we had no positive experiences with Chrysler. I think you are missing my point...you post your experiences, all of them, where I did the same. I could start posting things like:

    No, I posted my positive ones, not bad mouthing other vehicles I've owned.
  • Let me ask you this...Is it bad mouthing when its the truth?

    I can note my positive and negatives with Honda, but have no real positives to tell of with Chrysler.

    I could go on about our experiences with other Hondas, but they would really be pertainent to this thread (we had only one Odyssey - which was ultra-reliable save for a creaking front seat which needed lubricating). We had two Chryslers in the 90s, both of which left each of my parents stranded, one spending 3 months in the repair shop, the other, nearly 4 months.

    If you had this experience, I have little doubt you'd mention it too. I never said Chrysler is STILL unreliable and that Honda is better, that hasn't been me. All I've done is relate past experiences with our Hondas and Chryslers. Don't beat me up for giving my real-world experiences. I won't (and have yet to) beat you up for yours.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "This thread is the most mean-spirited, argumentative thread on Edmunds.com."

    Oh, I dunno about that. You should check out some of the GM related threads in the "News and Views" forum. Now THOSE can get ugly at times. :surprise: :blush:

    "I can't imagine anyone would want to post a question here about minivan shopping - it would just incite further venom."

    I was going to reply that I didn't think some of the regulars were keeping lurkers from posting questions....until I realize that there HASN'T been anybody but the same tired old group in here for quite awhile. I think you have a valid point.

    Perhaps if EVERYONE could stop attempting to 'validate' their OWN purchase by degrading the competition, it help.
  • Perhaps if EVERYONE could stop attempting to 'validate' their OWN purchase by degrading the competition, it help.

    I agree whole-heartedly, which is why I'm more apt to post actual experiences than opinions about how a car maker "probably" is.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    I agree whole-heartedly, which is why I'm more apt to post actual experiences than opinions about how a car maker "probably" is.

    So for example, I should post my negative Honda experiences, even though I don't currently own one? and they aren't minivan related? Are those the rules?

    I sort of thought this was a "Minivan Shopping" forum?
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