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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Kia Rondo (Carens in other markets) is a mini-MPV, the closest competitor is the Mazda5. The Rondo will officially start selling early next year in NA market, although Kia took some dealers by surprise by shipping units to the lot last month.

    I like the Rondo, clean lines, comfortable, functional, spacious - winner!!
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    True. But just because nobody is buying one does not mean they are not necessarily bad minivans.

    Although I'd probably avoid getting a brand new one though as the depreciation on those will be STEEP! :)

    Strange... Haven't seen any marketing material on the Rondo, but maybe I'll stumble into it at NAIAS (if I go). Sounds like it has good proportions.
  • The Freestar is very reasonable. With all the discounts, you could get one similarly equipped compared to a Honda/Toyota for less, much less on the used market. Of course, the new Sedona is even less expensive and also very nice overall.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    We all know the Caravan/Grand Caravan is THE MOST POPULAR, BEST SELLING minivan.
    Which minivans are # 2, 3, and 4? :confuse:
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    I would probably venture to guess that the Odyssey is #2, the Sienna is #3, and GM is at #4 with a boatload of fleet sales.. (Could be Kia, but who knows?)
  • We all know the Caravan/Grand Caravan is THE MOST POPULAR, BEST SELLING minivan, ONLY PURCHASED BY MILLIONAIRE GENIUSES. Which minivans are # 2, 3, and 4?

    What time period? For 1/6 - 6/6

    Dodge Caravan/Grand Carvan - 103,876
    Honda Odyssey - 72,941
    Chrysler Town & Country - 68,943
    Toyota Sienna - 67,404
    Chrysler Pacifica - 35,952
    Ford Freestar - 29,569
    Ford Freestyle - 28,634
    Kia Sedona - 26,215
    Chevrolet Uplander - 25,610
    Nissan Quest - 12,186
    Mercedes-Benz R-Class - 8,227
    Mazda5 - 7,806
    Mazda MPV - 5,939
    Buick Terraza - 5,339
    Mercury Monterrey - 1,811
    Hyundai Entourage - 1,194 (went on sale May 2006)

    Interesting that
    - Dodge is still #1
    - Dodge + Chrysler > Honda + Toyota
    - Dodge Caravan + Town & Country + Pacifica > Honda + Toyota + Ford
    - Pacifica + Freestyle (large crossovers) together are within 3,000 units of Honda. We all know the Caravan/Grand Caravan is THE MOST POPULAR, BEST SELLING minivan.
    Which minivans are # 2, 3, and 4?
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    THANKS for the numbers.
    Looks like GM is the BIGGEST LOSER while Honda and Toyota minivan sales increased significantly after they made the Odyssey and Sienna the same size as the long time sales leading Grand Caravan. :shades:
  • http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=117437

    They did another one. Honda wins. Though it seems the margin has a lot to do with the editors subjective feelings, if you read the scoring. Kia actually won in performance and destroyed them all on price. I was impressed that they had best braking. The age of the DCX products is showing - they are a good value but lack lots of features that everyone else has. The new design will very welcomed. Sienna also will welcome the bigger engine out soon. I think the Sedona/Entourage are a great value now. Almost bought a loaded Sedona last week that was being driven by the owner's wife (3K miles) but dealer didn't think he should go down more than a few hundred below invoice. They had 0% which was key. There are basicaly no loaded Sedonas left, and the 07's aren't out yet. We may look at the Entourage soon f they increase incentives. Our 04 T&C runs perfectly fine, one minor issue in almost 3 years (front sway bar) but I am starting to think that we should get the airbags, stability control, etc
  • Hi, We just purchased a 2001 Chrysler Town and Country Limited. I love it and got all the features I wanted. The problem is I didn't realize my son would get really (what's the word... well he freaks out that he can't get air and really wants the windows down. I feel for him. Problem is we're really tight on money and got this van at an amazing price. Is there anyway to get windows put into this van that will row down in the second row, even if I have to pay a couple thousand or get new doors - I'd do it. I really don't want to turn around and deal with selling it and getting something else but if I HAVE to then what other used minivans will have the 2nd row windows roll down - it would have to be used - can't afford new. Thanks!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I don't know about getting roll-down windows installed, but if I remember correctly, the 2000-current Mazda MPV has power windows in the second rows, as does the 2004 Sienna (the Toyota will be a good deal more expensive than the Mazda).

    Maybe the MPV would work for you? A 2001 MPV LX (mid-level trim), with 70,000 miles, and in good condition, should be between $7,000 and $8,000.
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    The local newspaper had an article written for the San Antonio Express-News on the new Nissan Quest that also had sales numbers for 2005. The numbers quoted were:
    Caravan/GC/T&C combined: 407,570
    Honda Odyssey 174,275
    Toyota Sienna 161,380
    Nissan Quest 40,357

    Interesting that the combined DaimlerChrysler minivan sales were 31,558 MORE than combined Odyssey, Sienna, and Quest. ;)

    True, DaimlerChrysler does not have the monopoly on minivan sales it held for decades but the DC minivans are still the MOST WANTED by more people than the combined sales of the 2 closest competitors. :shades:
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    My 2006 Sienna LE has 2nd row windows that roll down (but NOT as far down as the Odyssey windows go).

    The downside of roll down 2nd row windows is the noise from air turbulence at highway speeds. These roll down windows are NOT flush with the side of the van like the rear windows of the DaimlerChrysler minivans and are a source or road noise...down or up.

    IF you never sit in the 2nd or 3rd row, the noise would not bother you. :P
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, I first thought of the Sienna, but I know he/she is on a budget, and I was afraid that a 2004 or newer Sienna would cost too much.

    Do you know of any more vans older than Sienna that have roll-down sliding door windows?
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    The only thing that I know of is the 2000 and newer Mazda MPV, which might be available at a price similar to the Town and Country.
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    Just another love fest with the over-hyped Honda Odyssey where problems are swept under the rug and glaring lack of features are ignored. :sick:
    Why can't Edmunds and CR quote the actual price of each vehicle they test instead of MSRP? Why did they test an AWD 2006 Sienna Limited and then write that it was too expensive? Why didn't they mention the lack of fold into the floor 2nd row seats of the beloved Odyssey, Sedona, and Sienna? :confuse:
    When they weigh subjective areas very heavily, they can distort the entire conclusions to fit the biased, pre-conceived decision. :lemon:
    I was duped by the Edmunds test report of the 2004 Sienna and now own an inferior minivan that is NOT as enjoyable as was my 2002 T&C LX.
    After the glowing reports about the Odyssey, I considered buying one until I recently saw my nephew's 2005 Odyssey EX (cloth) and was appalled at the grimy, unsightly front door armrests made of cloth. My 4 year old T&C LX front door armrests never looked as ugly as those of the 2005 Odyssey EX (cloth). :sick:
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    First of all - WHO ARE YOU? Where is your username?

    Second - "problems are swept under the rug"? Edmunds didn't have any problems (that I can tell) with the tester used in the comparison test. And after ONE ENTIRE YEAR with their long-term Odyssey Touring, the only 'problem' was a slow air leak in one tire.

    Do you have any evidence that they had other problems which they 'swept under the rug' or are you just making stuff up?

    "When they weigh subjective areas very heavily, they can distort the entire conclusions to fit the biased, pre-conceived decision."

    Has it occurred to you that there may be a REASON they have a pre-conceived notion regarding these minivans? Afterall, they've had LOTS of exposure to several of these vans (with long-term tests of the Odyssey, Sienna AND the T&C).

    Do you have reason to believe that if they only used OBJECTIVE measures that the results would have been different? Should they simply IGNORE things like steering/braking feel, material quality, ride, and appearance? Then you'd probably complain that they shouldn't put so much weight on things like acceleration #'s and roadholding #'s. Maybe the ENTIRE test should have simply been a comparison of under-floor storage volumes....

    Agree that they should have compared the vehicles based on TMV rather than MSRP. Hey, and a further OBJECTIVE measurement might be then comparing the % of depreciation after 2 years and after 4 years.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    After ONE ENTIRE YEAR Motor Trend came up with something different than Edmunds long-term test, and that was with MT ranting on and on about how great the Ody was. Motor Trend writes, "And despite the unexpected maintenance issues..." & "mechanical failure of power sliding door-something none of us expected to happen on a Honda". i.e problems listed: radio antenna no reception(2 trips to dealer to correct), brake-noise, power sliding door failure, squeaks rattles and shimmies and excessive engine braking when downshifting into second gear. So, not everyone is lucky enough to only be getting an Ody with a slow air leak in one tire.

    Now look at the now closed Honda Ody:Problems and Solutions Discussion... and you will see many of the problems noted above. As well as declining reliability reported in auto mags i.e Consumer Reports. The norm of problems seems more in line with Motor Trends publication than Edmunds. So considering the pre-coneived ideas(bias) many testers take with them into these long-term tests... it is understandable that many problems may be overlooked, or "swept under the rug". ;)
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Now look at the now closed Honda Ody:Problems and Solutions Discussion... and you will see many of the problems noted above."

    Yes. That's why it's called a "Problems and Solutions" discussion. Although some of the items reported by MT (no radio reception) have NOT been reported in the P&S board, and one of the 'problems' (excessive engine braking when manually downshifting to 2nd) is simply a trait of a high-compression engine.

    "As well as declining reliability reported in auto mags i.e Consumer Reports."

    Declining reliability compared to previous edition Odyssey's or declining compared to other makes? And does DECLINING = below average? (If the industry average for minivans is 10 problems/100 vehicles, and the Odyssey goes from 4/100 in 2004 to 6/100 in 2005, that is both "declining" and still "above average").

    Let me be clear: when I state the "norm" for Odysseys, I mean what the average buyer should EXPECT for Odysseys. If the industry average is 10 problems/100 vehicles and the Odyssey is at (for instance) 12 problems/100 vehicles, then that means that AT LEAST 88 vehicles out of 100 will have ZERO problems.

    Now, I don't know what the industry average is for minivans in general. I don't know what the #'s shake out at for Odysseys's (or Sienna's/DCX/etc.) But I DO know that the "norm" for Odyssey's is NOT what was reported by MT. Do you have evidence that one CAN BANK ON having at least 5 problems with their new Odyssey?

    I'll submit (again) that what MT experienced was NOT the "norm" (in other words, their experience is NOT what one would expect). I think the "norm" is more in line with what Edmunds found out with their long-term tester (slow leak in one tire) or what I or socalawd, or any number of OTHER Odyssey owners who generally contibute to this forum have found; satisfaction.

    "So considering the pre-coneived ideas(bias) many testers take with them into these long-term tests... it is understandable that many problems may be overlooked, or "swept under the rug"."

    Baloney. Are you saying that Edmund's HAD other problems with their long-term tester (like failing door motors) and simply didn't report it; BUT reported a leaky tire INSTEAD? Has it occurred to you that (surprise!) Edmunds may have had ONLY a single leaky tire?

    If we follow your logic further, I suppose one could say that a pre-conceived bias would lead reviewers into MAKING UP problems where none actually occurred for vehicles they don't like. Do you think this happens too? Do you think that a publication would INVENT problems out of thin air just to back up their pre-conceived bias?
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Wow.... yours is a long post.

    I recall reading some posts in Ody P&S about trouble with the radio, though if you looked it up and there weren't any... then I guess I was mistaken. I didn't read anything in MT indicating the downshifting to second was done manually.

    Yes, declining reliability compared to previous edition Odysseys. Yes, still above average...but falling.

    O.k...you being clear about the "norm" for Odyssey makes sense. I would say 1 problem is closer to the norm than 5 problems. But, the point I was making about MT was despite this higher than norm number of problems they had during their long-term test... their report was still highly favorable. It just seemed they glossed over the Ody's faults, and over emphasized the positives.

    "Baloney"??? You have a rough day at the office?

    Look at what you quoted me as writing again. I'm not saying Edmunds deliberately avoided reporting problems. What is it that isell always says, when you have one person report of a squeaky drivers seat then all of a sudden everyone comes out complaining of squeaky drivers seats. It's the power of suggestion that comes into play. i.e "Well, my brakes may be squeaking a bit... but this is an Ody, so it must be my imagination"(i.e swept away) "Well, these Chrysler vans are suppose to be pieces of ****... so I'm going to find out why". (i.e swept away) Perception becomes reality... and pre-concieved bias in the testing/reviews is the result.

    It took a long time for Toyota and Honda to develop their quality reputation, just like Hyundai has been doing. So to can it move in the opposite direction. The perceived quality and reputation can remain... even though the reality is reliability and quality are falling.
  • Does anyone know with certainty if the 2007 Sienna Navigation system is the old touch screen only system, or is it the "new" Voice guided system as available in most upscale Toyotas? (Not asking about Blue Tooth - just Nav.)
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    I believe that Siennas equipped with the factory navigation system, starting with the 2006 model year, were equipped also with Bluetooth and voice activation.

    Not certain on that however...
  • The Kia Sedona short wheelbase model (less than 190" long) was being shown at the New England auto Show. It is scheduled to go on sale in February, according to the booth staff.

    Seats six, with 4 buckets 2x2 in the back two rows. AIR it had the same engine as the larger model, so it could become the top-performing minivan in the US market.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    It took a long time for Toyota and Honda to develop their quality reputation, just like Hyundai has been doing. So to can it move in the opposite direction. The perceived quality and reputation can remain... even though the reality is reliability and quality are falling.

    Actually I think the other car companies are getting better. Less failures per vehicle. This is great for the consumer. As far as minivan sales with such discounts and the fact the DCX are a good value I'm not suprised. I say the DCX is a good van at a great price and the honda/toyotas are great vans at a good price.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Thanks for reporting!!

    Very interesting, now Kia will have a full-line in the minivan market - Rondo, Sedona SWB, Sedona LWB.

    Kudos!!
  • Thanks. For '06: Blue tooth with voice yes, but only old touch screen for the Nav. system. Hoping they catch up with Honda's voice command Nav. for 07.
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Interesting. I thought the 06 models got the update...

    I have a feeling Toyota might just wait until the next generation Sienna in 2009 to switch over to voice command.
  • odmanodman Posts: 309
    The new Kia Rondo has gotten good reviews in two papers in Canada. Interstingly, both reviewers perfer the 4-banger over the 6.

    It is very similar in pricing and size to the Mazda5, a car that is selling relatively much better up here than in the US. I'm glad to see this segment grow. Honda: where's the Stream/Latitude we've been waiting half a decade for??? Toyota: we wish for a Wish.

    http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_T- ype1&c=Article&cid=1163717411617&call_pageid=968867497088&col=969048871196

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/autos/story/3778559p-4370241c.html (this carried across Canada in the National Post chain of papers)
  • 06 Sienna Nav has touch screen and voice command capability which is ideal for when you are alone and/or have a passenger that can help. i.e. navigate. The Bluetooth voice guidance is also included in the nav software. The Sienna manual for voice commands is inadequate and I obtained an Avalon manual which has added commands to better understand what is available.
    Tanker
  • allison5allison5 Posts: 130
    I am going to be getting rid of my GMC SUV and I truly can't decide if I should get a Honda Odyessy or a Chevy Tahoe, (the pilot is too small for my family). After the problems that we have had with the GMC and years ago a Ford I truly question an AMerican car, however I just don't know. My pay off is $27,000 on the GMC so I guess I am going to lose out through the roof which I don't like. However we have had sooo many issues with this Yukon and now it has 46,000 miles on it and no warranty. Any ideas?? Someone said if I get the ODyessy I should lease because of my negative equity and it would be better financially. I do go the the snowy mountains about 4-5 times a year and druing those few times I like having the 4-wheel drive. Does anyone think that with such a negative equity getting another car would NOT be a good idea?? Thanks
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