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CR-V vs Escape

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  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    why don't you comment on the Odessey problems? and their initial problems? I Know this is a CRV room but your claim that Honda is perfect is a joke.
    Get out on the net more often, there are plenty of Honda owners that are peeved and upset whom bough Hondas expecting perfection..
    I can't believe you think its ok for Honda to withold information about TSB's on www.alldata.com to the public.. why? aren't you the least bit interested to know why?
    I agree and admitted Ford has had some quality/relibility issues in the PAST. But your just like a pitbull and won't let go of the PAST. There are thousands upon thousand of satisfied Escape/Tribute owners that own reliable and quality built vehicles. You come across as every Escape/Tribute is just plain garbage.. This is totally untrue..
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    Actually, you do not have to read all the posts - you can skip over the ones you don't want to read. Nor do you have to respond to them.

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  • subzero206subzero206 Posts: 111
    theyre not all in the past, in the past week or two there was a major recall on Focus's.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Scape2 - Yep. The Ody did have it's share of problems. So did the MDX which comes from the same plant in Canada. Yet, both are statistically better than average in terms of reliability. Now if you want a Honda to pick on, try the new Civic. This is the only Honda I know of that was ranked below the industry average.

    Any questions, or can we get back to the CR-V and Escape?

    I do not know the reason for stopping the TSB postings on Alldata. I've already covered my speculations on the issue in earlier posts. Reread them if you like. TSBs for Honda used to be included until about a year ago. The information found there was just like the information you find for other manufacturers.

    If you think that this is some dastardly corrupt plan by Honda, take a look at how many times Ford tried to shut down BlueOval. Ford simply hasn't succeeded where Honda has.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    I tried hard to stay away from posting in here, but I just have to comment on the Odyssey comments.

    The very same source (Consumer Reports) that warned customers to stay away from the 1999 model Odysseys also lists the Odyssey (and virtually all of Honda's other products) in the "Good Bets" side of used cars to buy. The Civic is on there as well. The only Fords listed were the F-150 (2wd) and the Escort.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    It was mentioned Ford 'reputation' for poor quality. According to a JDpowers vehicle dependability study done in 2000 and 2001, Ford ranks above average. Although admitedly not as high as Honda, this still disputes the statement that Ford has a long history of poor reliablity. Also, Ford was ranked highest of the big3 the only one of the big3 that ranked better than average.


    Also, between 2000 and 2001, Ford showed more improvement in reliability than Honda, which also contradicts that Fords quality is getting worse over time.


    Problems per 100 vehicles:

    For 2000: Honda:318 vs Ford:443

    http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=486&CatID=1


    For 2001: Honda:268 vs Ford:361

    http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/01102a.gif

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    You forgot to mention the decline in dependability from 1999 to 2000. Ford dropped from 365 to 443 problems per 100 vehicles before getting back to where they were at 361 in 2001.


    Meanwhile Honda has a more consistent improvement rate going from 326 to 318 to 268.


    Aside from Ford's interesting decline during the year that the Escape was introduced, what does this have to do with the CR-V and Escape?

  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    for posting this data. However its just not good enough for some to believe Ford is improving and isn't the garbage some just have to believe.
    I don't want to "pick on Honda" The whole point I am trying to get across is Honda is not perfect. There are plenty of upset, unhappy Honda owners out and about on the net and at other chat sites.
    I promised I would post any problems with my Escape. Well, today I had my first real problem. I will never buy another Ford again, they are unreliable, and have shoddy quality. In fact I'm going down and trading it in this weekend.
    My back flip-up window has a slight rattle at times.. Thats it, I'm done with my piece of garbage Escape!!
    And if you believe this I have a pretty Red bridge in San Fran to sell ya! :)
  • carguy62carguy62 Posts: 545
    I thought that bridge was Orange. Don't they have a special color named for it? One of my proudest moments (I need to get out more) was when I drove across the GG bridge. Bridges are a phobia of mine, along with heights, a great combination. Not many bridges where I come from....but I'm getting better. Also have driven Mackinac in Mi and Francis Scott Key in Baltimore and the Bay Bridge and a few others in CA. I remember one (San Mateo??) right on the water, that one was freaky. A few weeks ago it was one acroos the Mississippi from Illinois to Iowa. Now ask me if I want to try doing it with a top heavy SUV (no choice now!).
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Scape2 - Where has anyone posted that Hondas are perfect? I mean, other than you. Who has said this? I do not know where you get the idea that they somehow defy physics and refuse to break.

    Of course Hondas have their share of problems. I can list a few of them if that will make you happy. The point of this discussion has been that they break less often than Fords. I think that has been proven a dozen ways.

    Now can we drop the Honda vs Ford stuff and get back to CR-V vs Escape?
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    I was simply responding to your dribble that
    ". A reputation for poor quality and reliability from the manufacturer."

    So the rules are, you can take the conversation where you want to, but you discourage others disputing your overblown statements?

    You also change your tone from post to post. One time your claiming Fords and the Escape are junk, and in the next post you simply claim that Honda's break 'less often' than Fords.

    No one really disputes the claim that the previous model year Honda CRV's have a quality advantage over the first year model Escapes.

    What I do dispute are the overstatements you make about 'Fords being junk' and 'reputation for poor quality', 'worst of the big3' etc, which I have shown are false.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    is the public getting all the news and real data about Honda products since they withold information on TSBs?? How do we know or even the press know?
    I would not argue that in the 80's Toyota/Honda/Nissan had reliability in the bag. Its 2002 now and I find it hard to believe that Ford would not improve its quality or reliability.
    Back to CRV vs Escape..
    While at the Gym I walked out to find a brown 2002 CRV parked right next to my Escape.. It was obvious what the person was trying to do beings there were 10-20 or more other spots in the parking lot. This just confirms my feelings on the looks of the CRV, tall, frumpy, awkward looking. The 15" tires/wheel combo just doesn't cut it with such a tall vehicle. I still wonder what the rollover rating is going to be on this vehicle. It stand a good 2" taller than the Escape and with the smaller wheels and tires.. if you have had physics it tells me tip over time!
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "An Escape will plain out accelerate, out tow, out pull, out haul, out and out manhandle a CRV"

    "No way will the CRV catch or even surpass the Escape in sales."

    "Why drive a four banger when a six can be had?"

    "I would hate to try to pass a car on a two lane road with 3 passengers and the AC on!"


    If my posts are starting to sound sarcastic, mean-spirited, or "overblown" it's because that has been the tone of this forum from the beginning. I see that you're not above the same behavior.

    "I was simply responding to your dribble..."

    Lately, my frustration is showing because here we are beating the same dead horse and reposting the same data over and over again.

    As for your last statements... I don't think that you've proven anything false yet. You did provide alternative data, but I don't see how it changes what I've posted.

    Consumer Reports, April 2002 (the car issue), page 76... The title of the page is, "Which Vehicles Hold up Best?".

    "Among Janpanese manufacturers, the best were Toyota and Subaru, with 12 problems per 100 vehicles, followed by Honda and Nissan, with 14."

    "Among domestic brands, Chysler was best for 2001 models, with 22 problems per 100, followed by GM (23) and Ford (26)."


    Unlike the JD Powers studies that you posted, CR surveys only include "serious" defects or issues and have other criteria despite being based on the same problems per 100 vehicles scale. Also the CR data is compiled from over 512,000 surveys while the JD Powers results are based on only 28,000 surveys. Another difference is the fact that CR data is based on the vehicles over the past three years. The JD Powers studies focus on one year at a time (the 2000 study is based on used 96 models).

    I'm not saying that one is more valid than the other, I'm just pointing out that they are different studies. As such, I cannot see how the link you provided somehow makes my information "false".
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Escape height = 69.1 width = 70.1
    CR-V height = 66.2 width = 70.2
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    ...Thanks!

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  • bessbess Posts: 972
    Ok, I'll give, your statements from a certain point of view are not false. However,
    as I'm able to provide equally valid alternative data for your stated opinions that:
    'Fords are junk', 'Fords have a reputation for poor reliability', and 'worst of the big3'.
    Your statements do not reflect all of the data available.
    In my opinion, even though the Honda does have the advantage, this does not imply that Fords are 'junk'.

    Your fustration is understandable to a point. Several of the statements about the Escapes power, acceleration and handling ability are generally seen by most publications as advantages for the Escape. Remember, having the 'best' acceleration or handling may not be as an important factor for some folks as it is for others. My daily driver vehicle is an F250 SuperDuty. No doubt that both the CRV and Escape can do circles around my truck in manuverability. (what was important in my truck purchase was hauling ability and size). However, when buying a mini-suv for our family, handling and performance were more important for me.

    One of your points for the Honda was it's relability data. But you don't just indicate that Honda has an advantage there, but instead you try to imply that Fords are 'junk', which is disputable and just your opinion.
    I guess your opinion can't be wrong, because really opinions are neither right or wrong, they're just opinions.

    However, as you try to give data of why others should share your opinion, it is best for everyone to be accurately informed so someone who chooses to base their opinions mainly on facts can do so.

    Sorry for the long winded post, but I believe both the CRV and the Escape are good solid vehicles that will have many happy owners and a few that are disappointed.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    To be honest, I think mine, varmits, and scapes posts were all very toned down comparted to many of the threads here on Edmunds. No personal attacks etc.. Its just a spirited discussion among adults, (for a change).. relax..
  • daveghhdaveghh Posts: 495
    I own the 2002 Crv and I will admit the tires are small having 15 inch rims! In fact it is rather annoying and I would like larger tires at least.

    As for your physics intuition... a small tire height has nothing to do with making the crv more tippy, in fact if anything it would make it less tippy then the same vehicle with taller tires.

    That said, I think think the width of the tire would play a minor role in the tippiness of the vehicle but there are other factors that are weighted far greater than the tires size. Noone can look at two suv's side by side and can say with confidence which one has a higher center of gravity. Density and type of metal is a huge factor for example. Also the type of suspension is far more of a significant factor then the tire size.

    I was thinking about it... as long as a car wouldn't tip around any kind of corner at reasonably obsessive speeds (oxymoron???) and you were safe in this regard. The CRV and Escape certainly are, look at the slolam data for these two. If I got smashed from the side from somebody in a truck running a red light I would want the car to tip on its side! Rather than take all of the truck into your side you take some of the impact from the truck and some from the road on the opposite side of the vheicle. Much safer!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    varmint,

    I posted a link to an article that appeared in USAToday a few weeks ago about CR's lopsided data, and I think it's time to show it again. After reading it, what little credibility their data had with me was totally thrown out the window. I'll stick to my own surveys (test drives) from now on. Besides, it's more fun that way. Here's the link again in case you missed it the first time. Note how the Pontiac Grand Am data (or actually the lack of data) is based on less than 100 surveys, as was the data for many top sellers. I think their ratings system could use a little re-tooling too.


      http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-03-12-crcars.htm

  • carguy62carguy62 Posts: 545
    Really Scape2 you sound like you are the guy from the movie JFK. Do you really believe there is some vast conspiracy on Honda's part to keep the public from knowing how bad their vehicles are? I told you that I was able to get a TSB# for my Honda. Anyone who takes the time can do it.

    I really think you are stretching by constantly bringing up this TSB thing. My feeling is if Ford had kept their TSBs to themselves (again I say that is perfectly acceptable, what other industry let's the public know their internal problems?) you would spin it as a positive. Discuss the merits of each vehicle but to keep referring to this TSB conspiracy of yours is a joke.

    And unless the CR-V parked next to your Escape was on steroids how do you explain it being taller than your Escape when it has been pointed out that the Escape is almost 3" taller? You seem to make things up based on some of your comments I've read and I think it is becoming more evident with each post.

    And really folks, if the statistics are there can you really call it "dribble". Every source sited shows Honda to be more reliable than Ford, or do you still dispute that? Someone probably still thinks the Escape is outselling the CR-V (referring to the quote above). Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I read what was posted on the CR-V board (post numbers 6731, 6737, and 6738), and you'd think that Honda just won the Super Bowl. However, varmint does enlighten everyone in post 6769. The CR-V is a brand new model that was popular before, that always equals strong sales. You're comparing it to a model that is almost two years old now, and that has to compete with three other SUV's on the same dealer lots. One of which is a brand new model that has been selling very well itself (Explorer). Anyway, what does this have to do with anything? I would never choose what I drive according to it's sales figures. There was a guy who posted somewhere that he bought his CR-V for it's exclusivity. Exclusivity? What about liking the way it looks, drives, or fits your needs? Maybe "Ford people" just don't care about sales any more because they're used to seeing their brand at or near the top of the charts for like a million years now. It's just not exciting any more I guess. Do sales figures really weigh in on your decisions?

    You guys keep discounting everyone's views by saying that they would be arguing the other way if the issues were reversed. So in other words, they would be saying the same things that all of you are saying? All of this spinning is starting to make me dizzy.
  • Baggs32 -

    I read the USA article. It is hardly startling. The professor that is supposed to be revealing the shame behind CR's ratings says that CR's data is "some of the best data available". There is a comparison of JD Powers Initial Quality data and CR's longer term data -- apples and oranges; apples and golf balls maybe.

    The article is not an indictment of CR data. It is no reason to doubt CR's integrity or applicability. If there is not enough data, CR says so. And there is plenty of data gathered.

    And the article reiterates the general principle that Japanese cars are, as a group, consistantly better made and more reliable than American cars.
  • carguy62carguy62 Posts: 545
    Except when someone makes an incorrect statement related to them. I don't buy my vehicles because everyone else does, but there usually is a reason people buy something (I've gone through this before) over something else. It's up to the individual to decide how to interpret the data.

    If someone bought the CR-V for "exclusivity" I think they will be disappointed. With ~150K sold in the US annualy I don't think it qualifies as exclusive. Now the Vue with ~50K sales, that IMO is exclusive ;-).
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    ...scapes posts were all very toned down comparted to many of the threads here on Edmunds.

    Thank goodness!

    tidester
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  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    It's some of the best data around because no one else puts the amount of effort that CR does into their research. Their efforts just aren't enough all the time. If you can't come up with data for all models, you didn't do enough work. Also, CR is basing it's reliability ratings on initial quality, so the comparison with JD is allowed. The Escape and CR-V are prime examples of how they can/might be wrong. They give the Escape a low reliability rating because it had some pretty big problems when it first came out. I'm assuming that the last gen CR-V had an excellent reliability rating when it came out, but it did experience problems later in life (a couple of recalls). The truth is, CR shouldn't be rating a vehicles reliability based on the first few months of it's existence. They would be better off waiting until it is five years old or so to make those assumptions.

    The article does indict CR's data because they apparently don't gather enough data often enough. I haven't looked at their ratings in a couple of months, but do they tell you how many surveys they received for each model? If they don't, how do you know you are reading a fair comparison of two models? Model A may have only received 101 surveys from people who have had a bad experience and want to voice their opinions. Model B may have received 5000 surveys giving it a good balance between good and bad experiences/opinions. The number of responses does matter when it comes to research of any kind.

    The article only reiterates that, according to CR's ratings, Japanese cars are consistently better made and more reliable.

    Is it really that hard to believe that CR might not be 100% accurate 100% of the time?
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Bess - This business of Honda vs Ford has little to do with the CR-V and Escape. However, that was the subject that the forum kept harping on, so I provided the data that I have. I'm willing to leave it at this: Fords (in general) are of average overall reliability. Hondas are of above-average reliability. Can we agree on that?

    If I ever posted that all Fords are junk, I'm pretty sure it was in response to someone else's inflammatory or ridiculous posting. My position on these two specific vehicles is another story.

    The Escape has a reputation for poor reliability and statistical evidence that supports that reputation. The '02 CR-V has a strong reputation, but, at this time, the vehicle is still too new to have statistical support. The 97-01 CR-V has a reputation for excellent reliability and several years of statistical evidence to support it. Since the new vehicle is built in the same plant, to the same standards, by the same people, etc. I see no reason to doubt that it will be at least average or better.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Baggs32 - Sales were brought into the picture as the result of debates earlier in this forum. The idea was that the American public wanted a V6 and the majority would not settle for a four cylinder. Unfortunately, that issue led to the quote I posted above:

    "No way will the CRV catch or even surpass the Escape in sales."

    Amusingly enough, to me anyway, was that the very next day the CR-V topped the Escape in units sold per month. The CR-V also outsold the Liberty which was actually the sales king at the time. It was then pointed out that the Escape and Tribute are very similar vehicles and shouldn't the Tribute be included in the Escape's totals. That's a reasonable point. The next month, the CR-V outsold both the Tribute and Escape combined.

    So, the subject of sales has a colorful history in this thread.

    Why should the average buyer care? You are correct. They should not. However, to a certain extent, sales may be used to gauge what the public wants in a particular class of vehicles. In this case, they are useful in demonstrating that a four cylinder vehicle can, in fact, be very competitive in this class. That's pretty much all it has to do with this topic.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    seeing things. I swear that 2002 CRV looked taller and was taller than my Escape! Are those Height numbers on Edmunds correct?? I even remember when my friend manager took and compared these two side by side the CRV was noticably taller..???
    I know I get heated on some posts, but I try to keep it civil and polite. I just get sick and tired of the same old story.. Escapes are junk, Escapes are all going to fall apart...
    If people would get out onto the net and visit other sites (www.escapecentral.com) and see how many happy, reliabile, quality built Escapes are on the road I feel things would swing around as far as reputation goes.
    I stand by my 4cyl vs 6cyl stand. Ford has made a V6 available for the same cost as Honda's 4cyl. XLS Escapes can now be had for about 19K with a V6, aluminum wheels, air, pw/dl, am/fm cd and more in my region.
    As far as sales numbers. Anyone knows when a new model is introduced it sells like gangbusters its first year. Look what happended with the Focus, Tundra, Beetle, Jetta.. sales through the roof. The new Corolla is selling like crazy now too.
    TSB's are information the public should have access too. All other car makers let TSB information flow freely. The fact that Honda has chosen to withold information in regards to their "legendary" reliability makes me ask questions....
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    The rails for a roof rack on the CR-V when measuring height. It's the same reason why the CR-V is listed as having a longer length than the Escape - the extra length of the mounted spare is included.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I got the numbers from Honda and Ford. I learned not to trust Edmunds on this sort of stuff. In this case, Edmunds has it posted correctly. They did have the manual and automatic GVRs backwards last time I checked.

    The height does include the roof rails. The length does not include the spare tire, but does include the bracket which the tire hangs from (so I'm told).
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