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CR-V vs Escape

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  • bessbess Posts: 972
    Another famous quote from you:
    ===========
    How can you ignore the only real data available on the subject and claim to have an educated opinion on the subject. Your argument boils down to, "In my own little world, where we ignore things like statistics, Fords are good." Fat lot of good that does for the people here on Earth.
    =============

    I did not put any words in your mouth, you do all of that yourself.

    So do you base your judgement of the quality of the CRV soley on what a few publications say? That is hardly educated. I've studied how the publications ask the questions, do the surveys, and I do take the conclusions that they come to into consideration..

    Do you also base some your preference on Hondas on your previous experience with them? I've seen you back up your posts with your own personal experiences.

    Yet again, another example of where a Honda fanatic claims someone else has an 'uneducated opinion' merely because that opinion is not in agreement with yours..

    Do the 'statistics' that you refer to say that the CRV is a better overall vehicle than the Escape? No. What constitues a 'better vehicle' can legitimately vary from person to person. It is this point in which you don't agree with, but that is ok. It doesn't make me or my opinions 'uneducated', it doesn't make my standards 'lower than yours', it doesn't mean 'I'm living in my own little world where I ignore everything else'.

    Step down from the Honda pulpit. (sir)
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.

    Right off of your link. I think it fits perfectly.

    Oh, there's this too.

    To act in an irresponsible or foolish manner.

    That pretty much sums up my meanings.

    Consumer Reports average observed fuel economy:

    Escape - 17

    CR-V - 21

    At $1.75 a gallon over 15,000 miles is 164.07 gallons and $287.00. Multiply your wasted 164.07 gallons by 10,000 vehicles a month that's 1, 640,700 then mulltiply that by 12 months and you and your ilk have WASTED 19,688,000 gallons of gasoline. In one year.

    Foolish.

    It's not about saving $287.00.

    Sure, we're on our way to more efficient vehicles, all the more reason to conserve. Who knows how quickly oil fields replenish...or if they do at all. What if, in ten years, we have an engine that runs one thousand miles on one gallon of gas? Who knows? Why not? Why not conserve when you can?

    I can see it now, Ford finally comes out with a hybrid car and the last gallon of fuel goes in to an Excursion. Ooops. Sorry! Oh well, it was cheaper to insure than a CR-V and it pulled more, and it had a longer range. Just made sense at the time! Perhaps, if there were more of an I care attitude instead of huh huh I save that in insurance attitude, Ford would try a little harder?

    Maybe?

    And that ignores the fact that most people who get the Ford V6 would be just as well off with the Honda 4. Get better mileage, and have a cleaner vehicle. And, this is the best part, have an engine that is, for what most people use these vehicles for, a better choice than the Duratech in the Escape!

    To act in an irresponsible or foolish manner.

    I could not have said it better myself.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    If your CRV is a 4wd, do you really NEED 4wd. My opinion is that 90% of those people who have 4wd don't really need it, and there is no doubt that same vehicle in 4wd gets less mpg's than 2wd model. So I can assume you chose the 2wd model of the CRV, right?

    But wait, there are even more efficient vehicles out there, why are you driving a CRV? Could it be that you and your ilk are wasting millions of gallons a year?

    Yet another example where Honda owners stand on the pulpit and say 'I care' and 'you Ford owners dont'.
  • sluglineslugline Posts: 391
    I was very surprised to see how much more expensive the Ford comes out looking in the TCO calculations on this site. Even when I compared a CR-V EX auto versus an 4-cyl Escape 2WD 5-speed, the CR-V was still cheaper by a few percentage points. There are a lot of assumptions that go into the figures, however, and I do wonder how well maintenance and depreciation can be projected over that span of time.

    I would refrain from using high-profile sponsorship deals as a sign of a company's financial health. I can show you a place in Houston that was formerly known as Enron Field. . . .
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    As we've seen on this board, for a comparably equiped CRV and Escape, the purchase price is slightly less for the Escape . Because of the way Ford and Honda package their vehicles, it is difficult to find a set of TCO's between the 2 that match up..
    So, I chose the 4wd CRV EX auto tranny with a purchase price of 22,654 and compare with the 4wd Escape XLS auto tranny, with the purchase price of 22,164. (so the starting point of the TCO is only about $500 difference).

    As you said, Edmunds ends up calculating that the Escape will cost 33531 after 5 years, and the CRV will only cost 28078. This does sound rather dramatic, so lets look at the numbers and Edmunds definitions..

    $2500 of this difference is in projected resale value according to Edmunds. Kelly Blue book and other publications report the difference closer to 2000 rather than 2500.

    $1000 of the difference is fuel cost. Can't argue with that. The CRV does get better MPG's on average than the Escape..

    BUT Edmunds says the Escape will cost $2400 more to maintain over 5 years than the CRV. This I don't agree with at all.
    Look at Edmunds definitions:
    Maintenance
    This is the estimated expense of two types of maintenance: scheduled and unscheduled. Scheduled maintenance is the performance of factory-recommended items at periodic mileage and/or calendar intervals. Unscheduled maintenance includes wheel alignment and the replacement of items such as the battery, brakes, headlamps, hoses, muffler, taillight/turn signal bulbs, tires and wiper blades/inserts. Estimated tire replacement costs are supplied to Edmunds.com by The Tire Rack, Inc
    =============

    For 'scheduled maintenance' I'd like to see more definition from Edmunds on how they calculated this cost. Fords come with a scheduled maintenance guide. This guide does not call for the replacement of any parts except for:
    oil and filter every 5k miles
    replace fuel and air filter, and tranny fluid every 30k miles
    change coolant every 45k miles.

    My Escape only has 35k miles on it, and I've spent less than $300 on general maintenance on it.

    It's hard for me to see that the CRV would also not have similar maintenance.

    For the 'unscheduled maintainence', those items are similar for both vehicles, have similar costs, and wear at the same rate. So again this would be about even for both vehicles..

    How does Edmunds justify $2400 difference in favor of the CRV?

    Note that the above does not represent the cost for repairs outside of warranty or maintenance. This cost as reported seperatly by Edmunds TCO comes out to be about the same. So much for the Escape being 'unreliable'.

    The other categories for TCO came out roughly the same, such as financing, insurance, and taxes. Although it has been argued here that the only reasons Escapes outsell the CRV is because they have better financing incentives..

    So, while Edmunds calculates the total difference to be around $5500 in favor of the CRV, I see the difference more in the $2000 to $3000 at most (still in favor of the CRV because of fuel costs and some difference in reported depreciation).
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    is way off in real world/region markets. The TCO and the used price here at Edmunds also doesn't jive.. You must also make sure you are matching oranges to oranges. Make sure your model/trim levels match up.. Escapes are less expensive option for options also. Once again in todays paper.. CRV LX 19.999, XLT Escape, comes with 4whl ABS, aluminum wheels, V6, tow package for 18,999.
    Ford isn't going anywhere. If you had any sense you would know Ford just doesn't own/make auto's.... As far as production being cut.. this is good news in my view. Quality will improve. Besides, with the amount of the cut, companies like Honda can only dream of making the amount of vehicles Ford does worldwide...
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.

    Right off of your link. I think it fits perfectly."

    Again, according to your poor judgment. The other half of the population agrees with me. Sticks and stones...

    "Consumer Reports average observed fuel economy:

    Escape - 17

    CR-V - 21"

    WHO CARES ABOUT CR!!!! The real numbers are:
    Escape 18/23 = avg. 20.5

    CR-V 22/26 = avg. 24

    That's a difference of 3.5 MPG. Woohoo! Let's just forego the formalities and give the Nobel Prize to all CR-V owners for saving the earth!

    We've had our Escape for almost 15 months now and still have yet to break 10,000 miles. Our Civic is nearly 7 years old and has all of 57,000 miles on it. The low mileage on both vehicles is not a result of gasoline conservation either. We just live in a convenient place where everything is 5-10 minutes away. So you see, you have no right to call anyone anything because you don't know the entire story.

    "Multiply your wasted 164.07 gallons by 10,000 vehicles a month that's 1, 640,700 then multiply that by 12 months and you and your ilk have WASTED 19,688,000 gallons of gasoline. In one year."

    Who cares?! Something better will come along at some point and your ilk can drive that. I'll stick to driving a big old V8, that gets 2MPG on the highway, while you're saving the world. Besides, I wouldn't call it wasted. Our higher "standards" for engine power require some loss in fuel mileage.

    "And that ignores the fact that most people who get the Ford V6 would be just as well off with the Honda 4. Get better mileage, and have a cleaner vehicle. And, this is the best part, have an engine that is, for what most people use these vehicles for, a better choice than the Duratech in the Escape!"

    That's OK. You go ahead and think what you want. We fools still have more fun. :)
  • carguydccarguydc Posts: 46
    Escape won best small SUV according to Smart Money magazine, March 2003. Here's the link:
    http://www.smartmoney.com/autos/newcars/index.cfm?story=march03
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    Baggs, you said that the insurance money you saved off set the money I saved in gas.

    I'm saying it isn't just a money saving benefit for me, it was a planet saving decision.

    No one's asking for a prize.

    Just open your eyes.

    CR's numbers are based upon their driving of the vehicle on real roads, not an EPA estimate I was just using real world data (cause you Fordies always [non-permissible content removed] and moan when we use real world survey's) Something you (I had hoped) would understand. I'm not thinking what I want, I'm knowing what is known.

    You'll have more fun? Okay, I'll bite. Which part of the Escape lends itself to being "more fun" than the CR-V? The playful yellow paint?

    Who cares?! Something better will come along at some point and your ilk can drive that. I'll stick to driving a big old V8, that gets 2MPG on the highway, while you're saving the world. Besides, I wouldn't call it wasted. Our higher "standards" for engine power require some loss in fuel mileage.

    Nice attitude. Talk about poor judgement.

    If you don't get it now, all the explaining in the world won't help.

    Part of the problem, not the solution.

    Pretty sad.

    Bess, I live at the bottom of a pretty big hill. It's my wife's vehicle and, with the way Michigan winters can get AWD made sense. I looked at many vehicles and MPG was a main factor.

    I didn't get on a pulpit and say I care and you don't, baggs got on this message board and said he didn't care.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    What qualifies either as automotive authoriites? Might as well be in MAD Magazine by scape2.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,860
    And thought she honed in on what a "typical" buyer in NA wants - lots of hp. I got the impression that the horses carried the day for the Escape. That and less plastic I guess.

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    Moderator
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  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I wrote that your standard for reliability was lower than mine. You (and perhaps Baggs) wrote back claiming that I had called all of your standards into question. I wrote one thing, you stretched it to mean a bunch of other things. That's what it means to be "putting words in my mouth".

    So do you base your judgement of the quality of the CRV soley on what a few publications say?

    Nope. Do you read my posts or just look for sound bites? I've already explained that I use several. I do use publications, personal experience, manufacturer reputations, and word of mouth. The difference is that I value the stats more than the highly unreliable personal experience, reputations, and word of mouth.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "CR's numbers are based upon their driving of the vehicle on real roads, not an EPA estimate I was just using real world data"

    On our last vacation, 3 extra PSI in each tire yielded 26 MPG. Is that real enough for you? CR tested one new copy. I'm sure all of us Escape owners can vouch for the poor gas mileage the thing gets before properly broken in. I know I can.

    "Baggs, you said that the insurance money you saved off set the money I saved in gas.

    I'm saying it isn't just a money saving benefit for me, it was a planet saving decision."

    If you would have worded it like that at first all would be well. Personal attacks and name calling directed toward other forum members is never going to lead to positive things.

    "Nice attitude. Talk about poor judgment.

    If you don't get it now, all the explaining in the world won't help.

    Part of the problem, not the solution.

    Pretty sad."

    Lighten up a little. We can still walk if all else fails. Life will go on.

    Honda must be making a killing off of people like you.

    "Which part of the Escape lends itself to being "more fun" than the CR-V? The playful yellow paint?"

    Ours is silver, so I can't vouch for the yellow. Sorry. Actually both are pretty much even when it comes to performance. You can take the Escape in some places that the CR-V won't go (not many though) because of the 4X4 option. I could use it to pull small shrubs, trees, bushes, etc. out of the ground which can be kind of fun sometimes. The way you get pinned to the seat back during a passing maneuver is always entertaining.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    It was prefaced with an apology. I am wondering when it will sink in. We have gone around and around with the MPG thing and every time it comes back to money or convenience with you. There was a time not to long ago you said that you didn't care about the MPG cause your bigger tank offset the range.

    It was then as in numerous posts before (more than I care to find or account for) that I(we) said to you that the MPG and green rating for the CR-V wasn't about a convenience for us but, a conscience decision to purchase a cleaner vehicle.

    How is it Honda would make any more of a killing off of me than Ford would off of you? I'd think the company that makes the car that lasts 20 years makes less on me than Ford would on you.

    It's not about having to walk. I'm sure you said that in jest...right? We use petroleum for a heck of a lot more than just vehicles.

    Anyway, I'm sorry for calling you a fool. I believe your attitude is foolish and, quite a problem in this wasteful country. I'm not a tree hugger. But, I'm not going to live my life as if my decsions don't effect our planet and our future.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "We have gone around and around with the MPG thing and every time it comes back to money or convenience with you."

    It's not just me. Leave those references out please. That's my point.

    "There was a time not to long ago you said that you didn't care about the MPG cause your bigger tank offset the range."

    That's right, and that's all I care about. I want to know how far I can go on a tank of gas. I already showed how many miles my wife and I drive in a year. Isn't that good enough? The average for one vehicle is 12,000 (maybe 15,000?)miles per year in this country. We're only driving about 16,000 combined!

    Maybe if we drove more I'd care more. Until then I'm going to keep on driving whatever makes me happy and not worry about how "bad" it is for the future. I'm still using less gas than most of the people in NA. So what's the problem again?

    "Anyway, I'm sorry for calling you a fool. I believe your attitude is foolish and, quite a problem in this wasteful country. I'm not a tree hugger. But, I'm not going to live my life as if my decsions don't effect our planet and our future."

    There's no need to apologize. I'm not offended. Just realize that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Hell, I even watched, in part, some show about gasoline on the History Channel the other day. It was quite interesting. Part of the show was spent introducing the viewer to new technologies that will greatly reduce, if not eliminate, the demand for gasoline in the future. They were sure to mention that we'll probably be using gasoline for a long time to come, but not forever.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    That's pretty contrary to everything I've been taught in my life. Pretty scary too. From as early as I can remember I was told just because someone else was doing something didn't give me a right to do it too. I will never justify my actions as correct because everyone else is doing it. Nazi Germany is a good enough example. Extreme but, it get's the point across.

    Maybe if we drove more I'd care more. Until then I'm going to keep on driving whatever makes me happy and not worry about how "bad" it is for the future. I'm still using less gas than most of the people in NA. So what's the problem again?

    Congrats. That works out well for you and, as it turns out, for the planet too. (Insert Bronx cheer here.) The "I live closer and use less than most so I'm entitled to waste more" theory doesn't fly with me. There are times it takes me 3 weeks to fill up my recycle bin. Do I throw it in the trash and say "ahhh it's not that much this week, clearly less than most of the subdivision"? No. It's cumulative, start at the beginning and if you cared, it could be you.

    Get ready for $3 a gallon.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    quote from 3611: I didn't get on a pulpit and say I care and you don't ...

    quote from 3604: Perhaps, if there were more of an I care attitude instead of huh huh I save that in insurance attitude, Ford would try a little harder?
    ===========

    Sounds pretty close to me.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    You've indicated that you value the statistics more than 'highly unreliable personal experiences, reputations and word of mouth'.

    However, depending on how the statistics are gathered, sampling size, who is sampled, and many other factors, the statistics can also be 'highly unreliable'.

    For me, I weigh them differently. I can't dispute the facts of my own experiences, there's nothing 'unreliable' about that.

    If you've used a product many times in the past that has met or exceeded all of your expectations and that you were highly satisfed with, would you 'take a chance' on another product or brand just because of a promise that it might be better?

    So if 2 products both are very similar in most aspects. I would tend to lean towards the one I have more experience with, if my previous experiences were all postitive.

    Don't get me wrong, if I start having problems with my Fords that don't meet expectations, I won't hesitate to look elsewhere.

    This is not a case where I am staying 'away' from Honda or saying Honda makes poor products, but more of a case where I prefer a brand that has worked very well for me and my family in the past.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    My last trip over Cascades and into central Oregon.. my Escape gave me a strong 23.8MPG on average! I can't complain one bit. V6 200HP/200ft/lbs of torque.. what a blast to drive.
    Around town I still average about 20-21MPG..
    carguy.. thanks for the article.
  • odie6lodie6l Hershey, PaPosts: 1,078
    i hear all this moaning from CR-V and Escape owners about the gas mileage thing... Excluding Scape and Myself who bought Tornado's for our Escape's (and I got 1 for wife's Civic EX too), the Escape and CR-v both have their strong points and weak points... That's why we have whats called a CHOICE to buy what we want to buy. Just go out and get yourself a Tornado and start playing like good little children or go sit in the corner for you time-out.... geesh

    Odie
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,860
    I thought the EPA estimates for the '01 V6 were 18 city/24 highway. What good is the swirl gizmo doing?

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  • icon2icon2 Posts: 9
    Too right odie61. It's boring to see this on this type of forum. Whenever someone claims to be making a particular car choice based on a 4-5 mpg difference largely because of the good for the planet it just doesn't fit.

    Smart money? Sarah Breckenridge? by icvci

    Isn't it funny that a magazine like SMART MONEY should put the Escape as the best choice without making any analysis as to running costs, average repair costs, depreciation, etc. Obviously the Escape's qualities was just too overwhelming for the writer of that comparison to worry about such small things. Pity cause if the writer had spent proper time on researching the facts and incorporating her findings then no doubt it would have been a useful article to help answer some of the heated arguments going on here and maybe even help those contemplating Escape vs CRV.

    Scape, it's reassuring, u're gettin some pretty reasonable MPG figures. What kind of cruising speed did you do on the highways on that vacation?

    BTW, that thing about ford making more than just autos. Isn't that the real problem? Over and out on that.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "However, depending on how the statistics are gathered, sampling size, who is sampled, and many other factors, the statistics can also be 'highly unreliable'."

    If they were unreliable, we would see significant variations. That's what "unreliable" means in statistics. But we don't see that. Instead we see the CR-V being consistently rated at the top of its class year after year.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    In the CR report, what segment of the population is surveyed? CR doesn't necessarily cater to the audience that the Escape does..

    Looking at what I've seen published, the CRV did have 1 more red dot, but the Escape also did well in the CR reports and by no means was seen as an unreliable vehicle in their view.

    So given how closely the CRV and Escape are rated in CR, the difference could be attributed to the demographic of CR readers vs Ford and CRV owners.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    Then why worry about the Tornado?

    Whenever someone claims to be making a particular car choice based on a 4-5 mpg difference largely because of the good for the planet it just doesn't fit.

    How wouldn't it fit? Granted, it takes more than one person to care but, it has to start somewhere. But, I guess someone who lives in the country that brings us Mexico City ,widely regarded as the most polluted city in the world, wouldn't get it.
  • icon2icon2 Posts: 9
    "20-25% gain in MPG no big deal? by icvci "

    Didn't say that. Obviously it's a big deal for those choosing the CRV with fuel economy a top priority on their list. It's a big deal for them because it saves them MONEY, not the EARTH.

    "Granted, it takes more than one person to care but, it has to start somewhere."

    Really, be serious are you expecting us to believe you're starting to make a contribution by buying an SUV and saving 4-5 mpg. C'mon you're only kiddin yourself. I'll say again, it just doesn't fit.

    "But, I guess someone who lives in the country that brings us Mexico City ,widely regarded as the most polluted city in the world, wouldn't get it."

    So you're saying that in your eyes people who live in Mexico can't understand the importance of
    saving the planet and the contribution people and governments can make to protect the earth's resources simply because Mexico city is the most polluted. It's a bit like saying that those who choose to live in the USA can't get the notion of reducing the threat of nuclear proliferation just because the USA developed and has the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons. So ridiculous don't you agree.

    So you see we can all pick holes in each other's arguments and go on.. and on.. and on... but it's boring for a discussion board about CRV vs Escape. Move on for goodness sake.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "In the CR report, what segment of the population is surveyed? CR doesn't necessarily cater to the audience that the Escape does."

    As long as they gather a statistically significant number of surveys, then they have enough data to publish. They have data for both model years, so they have met that criterion.

    "Looking at what I've seen published, the CRV did have 1 more red dot, but the Escape also did well in the CR reports and by no means was seen as an unreliable vehicle in their view."

    Yes, compared to last year's data, the Escape has improved. However, it's overall ranking is still more than 30% below the industry average. It has improved, but apparently not by much.

    "So given how closely the CRV and Escape are rated in CR, the difference could be attributed to the demographic of CR readers vs Ford and CRV owners."

    1. They are not rated very closely. The two are still separated by more than 60% points. 2. I'm not even sure what this talk of demographics means. What demographics? How do they affect the results? Where is your proof?
  • corynatcorynat Posts: 52
    The whole MPG thing is pretty silly. There is no difference in one person picking the Escape over the CR-V and living with a little less mileage and someone else picking the CR-V over the Civic and living with a little less mileage.

    If your primary concern is mileage, you won't drive an SUV anyway.

    I "need" and SUV, so I picked one that gets 3 MPG better than yours, so I am concerned more about the environment than you. What a load.

    This isn't CR-V vs. Hummer.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Fuel economy isn't the biggest concern right now, but it will become an increasingly important factor. I'd hate to buy a guzzler today and be stuck with it in five years. Ditto with emissions.

    I see it as the frosting on the cake. Both vehicles in this debate are reasonably good, compared with the mid-size SUV alternatives, minivans, and large cars. However, when compared within their class, the CR-V is clearly the one with the advantage.
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    Yes, I do believe I am making a difference. I had choices to make, as most of us do.

    I made a small SUV my choice. It got better MPG than wagons with similar room, and has a cleaner burning engine.

    I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to drive what they want, I'm saying we all have choices and it behooves us all to choose cleaner more efficient vehicles. Decide what you need and be smart.

    I'm not saying my 4-5 mpg by itself makes a difference. I am saying my 4-5 mpg along with the 4-5 mpg from others making earth friendly decisons will make a difference.

    I'm not the only person on the planet and I don't live like I am. We all make a difference.

    I find it ironic that a guy that hails from the country with the most polluted city in the world, thinks 4-5 mpg can't make a difference.

    Nukes? Tell me how I can clean them up. Where can I start? Way, way, way, way, off.
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