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CR-V vs Escape

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Comments

  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    the Jag is not a basic car.

    It is to some people. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. :cry:
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 540
    "You're right. The numbers started with Snowman.

    He claimed specific numbers. I rebutted. You said that specific numbers aren't necessarily the best measure and we should use a power curve. (I noticed you didn't correct Snowman on this point.) I said show me a curve.

    If you are maintaining that the Ford engines are just as good (when graded on this curve), find me a curve illustrating that fact."

    What specific numbers you are talking about??
    I just posted official HP and Torque numbers for CRV and Escape to make my point then suddenly found Accords, Jaguars, Jeep Liberties flying here...

    Feel both you guys free to find and post the power curve of CRV and Escape.
    Since this is CRV vs Escape forum, please don't bring any numbers from any other make model. CRV I4 vs Escape Duratec ONLY, please.

    And Varmint, please give up referring to other models of Honda whenever CRV doesn't it cut it any more against Escape.

    ".... Honda uses a 3.0 to get 250hp and the engine is silky smooth compared with the Duratec"
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 540
    "I mentioned price because it shows how Honda uses advanced technologies in even their most basic cars."

    Good for Honda, but this doesn't cut it anymore. THeir most basic cars (Civic, Accord) are the biggest loosers...Looks like consumers are looking something else in cars...
    Accord sales shrunk 23.7%, Civic 24.7% compared to 2004 May. And this is not related gasoline prices....
    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/01/110791.html
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "Accord sales shrunk 23.7%, Civic 24.7% compared to 2004 May. And this is not related gasoline prices.... "

    Well, I suppose that is true, but you should also note that those values are only for the month of May, and that the year to date numbers are somewhat better: Civic -13.8% and Accord -7.9%.

    The honda light truck division is booming, up 14%. Eating someone's lunch there, probably GM and Ford. Ford truck sales are down -8.4%.

    Let's return to the topic; we should note that CR-V sales are up by 5.4%, both monthly and year to date.

    Here are the Ford Figures for the Escape: Month of May -39.5%, year to date -10.9%. At least it's better than the Explorer/Expedition, which are both down over 20%.

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=20891&make_id=trust
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    The honda light truck division is booming, up 14%. Eating someone's lunch there, probably GM and Ford. Ford truck sales are down -8.4%.

    A lot of that has to do with the fact that they have a brand new model in the lineup that didn't exist last year. Which ironically isn't doing as well as Honda had hoped out of the gate. Add +100% into the equation of any average and it's going to look better than it really is.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Snowman - The discussion originated with someone posting that the Escape's Duratec was "ancient", technologically speaking. Variable valve timing was listed as one of the technologies not applied to the Escape's engine. At that point, you made a remark which I agree with. Not every technology needs to be applied to every engine. The principle being use the right tool for the job.

    Despite the fact that I agree with the sentiment, I do not think it applies in this particular case. I listed two engines of the same displacement (a Mazda and a Honda) where VVT has been used successfully to improve the engine. Baggs listed a third for us (the Jag). Various VVT systems are being used by every major player in the automotive market. To be quite honest... as I'm writing this, I'm trying to think of another modern 3.0L which puts out less power than the one in the Escape, and I'm having a hard time coming up with an example.

    So, based on the performance of its 3.0L peers, I would have to rate the Escape's Duratec pretty low. It's not an "ancient" engine, but I'd call it "dated" without reservation.

    Now, if you feel the only way to measure an engine's performance is to compare it with other engines in similar cars, then we can do the CR-V versus Escape thing. The CR-V's I4 will run circles around the Escape's I4. Even with the more advanced valve technologies not available to the Duratec, the Mazda-derived I4 powering the Escape is no match for the CR-V's I4. The fact that we spend half our time in this thread comparing the CR-V's I4 to the Escape's V6 ought to tell you how well Honda's engines perform.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Funny how I'm commanded not to bring up other Honda models, but sales of the entire Honda line are fair game, eh Snowman?

    Sales for the Accord and Civic are not down because the engines aren't up to snuff in the area of technology. They are down for several reasons, but none of them have to do with lack of sophistication. Lack of incentives, cuts in production (in anticipation of the next generation Civic), increased competition in the segments from companies like Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Subaru, lack-luster styling in the case of the Accord... All of that stuff plays a part in the performance of those two car lines. But lack of engine technology is not part of the game.

    "A lot of that has to do with the fact that they have a brand new model in the lineup that didn't exist last year." - Baggs

    The same can be said for Ford. The Freestyle is new to their lineup.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,695
    if you come back to 'the right tool for the job', then the duratec fits that description.
    it is tuned to have a wide torque curve, not max peak horsepower. i don't see too many (any?) owner complaints about it.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    On why the Escape sales are down this year? The additional sales increase of the CR-V isn't eating up that much of the sales volume. Maybe the new mini SUVs, like the Tuscon, and the redesigned RAV4? Liberty diesel?

    I'd have thought with a sheet metal freshening plus some new transmission items, the 2005 would have done at least as well as 2004 (which it may yet; we won't know until 2005 is over).
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    I was looking at the specs for the Escape Hybrid when I noticed some differences in the specifications of the Escape that cause me to prefer the CR-V.

    Turning Radius: Escape 37.1, CR-V 34. I love how nimble the CR-V is in traffic and parking. To me, the Escape rides a bit better than the CR-V, maybe this impacts the turning radius.

    Cargo room: Escape is about 7 cu feet less that the CR-V in both behind the rear seats and with the seats folded. And that is not counting the large well (a.k.a. "ice chest") beneath the CR-V cargo floor, which is probably another couple of cubic feet.

    Rear Seat room: Escape: 36 in, CR-V 39 in. On long trips I often pull the CR-V seats forward a couple of inches, making them similar - but then I have almost 40 cu feet of cargo space.

    Also, I'm not sure what the cost would be for a 7 year, 100K, no deductable extended warranty for an Escape. It cost about $900 for my CR-V.

    Of course, I have no need of towing anything, so that factor is not important for me...

    I'm always amazed at the packaging job Honda did on the 2nd Gen CR-V. Really efficient.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,695
    i know exactly why escape sales are down so much. the sticker price is way too high.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,794
    "I know exactly why escape sales are down so much. the sticker price is way too high."

    Some people will (no doubt) respond with their great deals on the Escape Limited V6; give it a day at most. So I suppose some people disagree.

    If I recall correctly, Ford is showing a $2000 rebate (I think - through July 5th). Could be $1000, I'm not sure - I was looking at the Hybrid, which doesn't have a rebate.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,695
    my point is that escapes seem to have gotten a lot pricier since we bought our '04 limited. the hybrid is not a bargain either, pricewise. that does not mean they are bad vehicles, though.
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 540
    "Funny how I'm commanded not to bring up other Honda models, but sales of the entire Honda line are fair game, eh Snowman? "

    Well, I think this practise was invented and grandfathered by Honda crowd here. Escape owners are told million times how Honda is doing well in terms of R&D, new models investments, reliability, resale etc, etc., whenever CRV can't prove otherwise by itself against Escape.

    And if you please refer to post 6187, I already answered why I post Honda numbers, as a reaction to prove that consumers are selecting different brands, b/c they are price sensitive and they are aware of that majority of make and models are equal each other in terms of quality and many other factors.
    Don't you find interesting Hyundai has not lost sales (gained little), Nissan gained lot in truck divison despite high fuel prices.

    "But lack of engine technology is not part of the game. "

    this is what I have been telling you in a different way, engine technology doesn't cut it anymore, cause others have similar technologies as well.
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 540
    You missed Tribute, it has gained 4.7% YTD.
    Also, Escape + Mariner + Tribute have combined sales of 97644 units, many more than CRV (58576 units YTD).
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    I think varmint bringing up Honda's 3.0 liter V6 is completely warranted. The only things the Escape supporters seem to be able to bring up is the Escape being cheaper and having two more cylinders. varmint's point is that if Honda considered this to be a problem, they have a far more powerful engine they could put under the hood of the CR-V. The fact is they have chose not to. They can go toe-to-toe with a significantly smaller (and more efficient) engine, at a slightly higher price. The increased efficiency, lower emissions, lower price and safety factors associated with the smaller engine have caused Honda to go with the I4.

    They also realize that if people in this segment really require towing, they'll go with the CRD or 3.7 liter Libertys, which isn't their competition. The Libertys tow more and get just as good or better mileage as the Escapes with a heavier platform and better offroad capabilities. The CR-V, on the other hand, is designed for young people and couples who desire safe all-weather driving, reliability, fuel efficiency, and superior interior space. They have their market pegged. I didn't buy a CR-V to do 0-60 or pull a camper, and Honda realizes most people don't.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,695
    if honda thought everything out so completely, why don't they give the crv a normal rear hatch? my own guess is that the v6 won't fit in the crv without major changes and it selling as currently configured. our '04 escape has had no problems, although the read bumper has taken some abuse. the gas mileage could be a bit better, but it could be due to driving style.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    The CR-V is longer and wider than the Escape, so I'm pretty sure, given Honda's ability to package an automobile, they could fit the V6 in there if they wanted to. 0-60 times just aren't a focus. With iVTEC technology, it's nearly as powerful as the Ford in "real world" driving conditions anyway. Besides, if the rear hatch is keeping you from considering the CR-V, I think your priorities are much different than the average buyer.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,695
    priorities different form the average escape buyer or the average crv buyer?
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    In this months Motor Trend they have a small car shootout. Civic is not even mentioned, Ford, Toyota, Mazda, and Kia.... Hmmm.....Mazda 3 won.
    Ford Escape more expensive than a CRV.. Looks like I am going to have to post prices, VIN#'s and dealership names again.. and again.. and again....
    14.5K for a Civic Si.. no way, asked my friend who manages a Honda dealership and he laughed. 19K at least as new, was his response... Do you know what Civic EX's go for in my region? 19K!! Yep, 18,888. Honda fans scream and yell resale but they fail to show they cost more upfront. Another point to make is the low financing. For instance. I bought my 01 Escape with .9 percent financing for 3 years. My Escape is paid for! How many 01 CRV owners can say that!.. None because it wasn't available... LOL@!. I saved thousands in financing. Honda has not offered any great products that people want.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    Honda has not offered ANY products people want? Car and Driver listed the Odyssey and Pilot as their category winners for 5Best Trucks, and the Honda Accord was their best family sedan for 19th time in the past 23 years. (This doesn't include the two Acuras that also made the 10Best Cars list.) That's winner of 5 of the 15 categories. As for edmunds.com, the CR-V is listed the most wanted for a SUV under $25,000 for the fourth time in a row, and the Odyssey, Civic coupe, Accord sedan and Pilot were ranked most wanted in their respective categories as well. No great product, huh?

    As for the Honda's costing more, that's kinda a "duh" thing. Better quality means higher price. The higher resale, more safety, better efficiency and superior interior room are just some of the "perks" that come with owning a Honda, and more than offset the slightly higher initial cost.

    As for your "region", I find it funny that Civics are selling at 19k and Focuses are selling at 9k. The market sets the value, so I guess Fords aren't really valued in your market, which is why you got such a great deal on your Escape. You can choose to pay for your vehicle up front, or when you go to trade it in. You chose to do the latter, and I'm glad your happy with your purchase.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    I should point out that you are listing MSRPs for Honda's, and TMV-type prices for Fords. That isn't in the slightest bit fair (and I'm sure you're probably aware of that), as just with Fords, people generally don't pay sticker for Hondas, although it is true you'll pay closer to that number than with a Ford, especially with the large rebates the domestics are forced to offer in order to push their product. FWIW, around here, you can into a Focus for about $11,000, including the rebate, and into a Civic for about $14,000. This is off topic for this thread, but it seems like just about everything BUT Escape vs. the CR-V is where this thread has gone...

    PS - The 2005 Honda CR-V won Motor Trends' Buyer Guide Intellichoice "Best Value in Class" award for compact SUVs over $21,000.
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, just arrived in New MexicoPosts: 40,550
    This is off topic for this thread, but it seems like just about everything BUT Escape vs. the CR-V is where this thread has gone...

    The signal to noise ratio in here is a bit high. I'd hate to see the comments in here if Chevy purchased Honda (or vice versa)!

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    14.5K for a Civic Si.. no way, asked my friend who manages a Honda dealership and he laughed. 19K at least as new, was his response... Do you know what Civic EX's go for in my region? 19K!!

    Your Honda manager is probably the one who still has the 2002 Civic Si sitting in the back lot because he wanted to cash out on the $3500 incentive, Honda threw in with the 2002 Civic Si, and get MSRP. I know there are a few dealers who have 2002 Civic Si sitting in their back lots because they were not willing to "wheel and deal." My dealer told me upfront that there is a $3500 incentive to move the 2002 Civic Si because a bean counter at Honda over estimated the 15,000 initial release number. Honda has since cut the importation of the Si to a more sellable 5000 unit a year. This is what drove the prices back up.

    2005 Honda Civic EX 2 door is showing at $15,300, and 4 door at $15,600 in my zip code. So, whoever is paying the $18,888 for Civic ES is either not very bright, or this is a loaded EX special edition with dealer installed leather. My dealer has a Civic Si for $19,500, but that is hooptied up one with HFP package and aftermarket wheels.

    But anyway, back to CR-V vs. Escape. You got your escape for 0.9% for 36 months, I got my 2005 CR-V for 2.9% for 60 months, and I had the Civic at 1.9% for 60 months. What was the rate for 60 months when you got the Escape at 0.9%? So, you have a 4 year old Escape that you have paid off, big whopptie doo, how much is it worth? a 2001 CR-V EX with 48,000 miles still sells for $13,000 private party and $14,500 dealer retail Edmunds appraisal, can you say that about your Escape? $11,500 and $12,800 respectivley
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    The same can be said for Ford. The Freestyle is new to their lineup.

    Varmint,
    Sure you can say that but no one said Ford's sales were up and eating anyone else's lunch which is what I was targeting. If whomever posted the original comment thinks Honda's light truck division is eating Ford's lunch they're crazy. We all know that Ford sells more F-150s than Honda sells in total vehicles each year and it's crazy to even elude to Honda being a major threat to the big three when they led the way in sales decline last month.

    I for one am very interested to see what happens to Accord and Camry sales once the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr triplets are released. I don't think those three will take over the crown but they are definitely poised to steal some big numbers away.
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 540
    "As for the Honda's costing more, that's kinda a "duh" thing. Better quality means higher price. "

    I guess you didn't look at the links I posted or you dont follow Honda Accord quality control issues or CRV problems forums... :surprise:
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 540
    "I for one am very interested to see what happens to Accord and Camry sales once the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr triplets are released. I don't think those three will take over the crown but they are definitely poised to steal some big numbers away."

    I strongly agree and indeed Ford is doing very nice job on product line, I am sure success will follow... :)
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "if you come back to 'the right tool for the job', then the duratec fits that description. it is tuned to have a wide torque curve, not max peak horsepower. i don't see too many (any?) owner complaints about it."

    Gas mileage. I've read plenty of complaints about gas mileage. People complain when their CR-V averages 22 mpg. People driving Escape's claim that 22 mpg is pretty good.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Yes, I agree that Honda is not eating Ford's lunch when it comes to truck sales. Maybe stealing a potato puff or two would be a better description.

    But Honda's truck sales are up. And Ford's truck sales are down. You cannot claim that Honda's sales are up simply because Honda added a new model. Not when Ford has done the same thing.
  • suvtimesuvtime Posts: 58
    Scape it would seem obvious as to the reason why the Civic wouldn't be included in the small car comparison. Why bother, when a totally new Civic will be released later this year. I would guarantee it will be included in almost all small car comparisons and I won't be surprised if it came out on top.
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