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CR-V vs Escape

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,784
    "The second review mentioned Ford has incorporated a new braking system in the 09 Escape hybrid. I hope they will extend that to the regular 09 Escape. "

    My reading of the article indicates that the hybrid is the only version that NEEDED a fix, so it wouldn't apply to the normal model. Some people have issues with the way regenerative braking "feels" in the Ford design. It IS different, but so what (in my opinion).

    What Ford did was to program brake pedal pressure to simulate "normal" braking feel for the driver. I don't think it helps the stopping distances at all.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    The Focus, Escape and Ranger would be generating even more sales but they are competing against vehicles which are two generations newer.

    The Focus and Escape are selling like hotcakes right now. Search the news and you'll see that the Focus plant is running at full steam to keep up with demand and the Escape is catching up to the CR-V in sales once more. I'll give you the Ranger for now but Ford is planning a new one for 2010 or 2011 IIRC.

    I just had my Mustang inspected at a medium sized Ford dealer today and they had zero Focus' on their main lot for sale and ony 1 or 2 Fusions. I think they might have had a few of each on their back lot though. They had seveal Escapes but I have a feeling word of the improved '09s is slowing sales of the late '08 models.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    But you are proving my point. Ford got caught w/their pants down. Here is a link to the 1st Quarter Sales for 2008. Of course I can't prove my theory but if they had a newer vehicle and were actually serious about producing these vehicles they would have the capacity to meet demand. As it stands, the Accord is walloping the Fusion and both the Civic and the CR-V are beating the Focus and the Escape respectively.

    And the bad news doesn't end there. Honda just announced three new hybrid models. Meanwhile, Ford is laying people off.

    Until Ford gets serious about something other than the F150 they will continue to get beatup in the marketplace, and they are getting to the point where they can't take much more of a beating. The Escape, Focus, original Taurus, original Mustang, Model T, etc., etc., were ALL excellent at the start but you HAVE to turn out something original sooner than every 8-10 years to remain competitive w/the Japanese. How do you think Kia/Hyundai has squeezed it's way into the marketplace? It sure as heck wasn't by making a F-Gazillion50. ;)
  • phisherphisher Posts: 175
    Last I heard Ford was discontinuing the ranger. The only plant that makes rangers and Mazda B-series truck is here in St Paul and as of the end of this year it will be closed down.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,784
    "Honda just announced three new hybrid models. "

    But not an SUV. The Escape Hybrid is still the only I4 powered hybrid on the market. The FWD mileage of 34/30 (city/highway) is the highest of any SUV.

    Before I got my FEH I considered waiting for the (rumored) CR-V diesel. But with diesel prices here in CA, it wouldn't have been a good purchase in my opinion. I have seen diesel at $5 / gallon at some stations.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Last I heard Ford was discontinuing the ranger.

    I believe that's still correct. The new one most likely won't be called Ranger but rather may be called F100 and is supposedly going to be a shortened F150 with an EcoBoost I4 and a V6.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    I'm not getting into another this vs that mfr with you drom. We all know your hatred for Ford and it doesn't matter what they do because it will never be good enough for you.

    The current Focus, Fusion, and Escape are stopgap solutions until all of them, and the Fiesta (Verve), are globalized in the next year or two. That means we get the fantastic Euro versions soon and then the real fun begins. So you don't have to worry about them only being serious about the F150 for long. :P
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,618
    toyota only redesigns the camry platform every 10-12 years, they change the body and everyone thinks it is all new. obviously they have good design to start with, but it really isn't so different from other manufacturers. a lot of it is perception.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    I'm not getting into another this vs that mfr with you drom. We all know your hatred for Ford and it doesn't matter what they do because it will never be good enough for you.

    Uh, I OWN a Focus, I sold my 1990 F150 last year and our family car before our CR-V was a ZX2 so I'm not quite getting where you are coming up w/your analysis.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Because you're constantly bashing Ford for not having anything "new". If you don't like what the have to offer so much why do you keep buying them?
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    I won't buy a new one, that's for sure. It's like buying previously viewed DVDs at my local movie place. Why not buy a new one for the same price, i.e., Hondas, modern design w/modern technology. Like disc brakes all-around, side and curtain airbags standard, as w/stability and traction control. Fords are a pretty good value used because of their poor resale, though. Like picking up a DVD at a garage sale. I have a right to my opinion...right? :confuse:
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    I have a right to my opinion...right?

    Right, which is exactly why I'm not going to argue with you on this. However, I will clear the air for others if your opinion is stated as fact.

    Hondas, modern design w/modern technology.

    You've seen the new Pilot right? I'm not sure I've ever read any review, professional or amateur, where it was stated that Honda's (and Acura's) designs are modern. Maaaybe the Civic, but the rest of the lineup is pretty average by any standard.

    Like disc brakes all-around, side and curtain airbags standard, as w/stability and traction control.

    The Escape had discs all around until last year. No one quite knows why they changed it (probably penny pinching) but performance hasn't suffered and that's what's important. There's nothing wrong with drum brakes as long as they work well.

    Side and curtain airbags as well as TC and AdvanceTrac with RSC are all standard for '09 in the Escape. In fact, all of the biggest complaints against the Escape from professional reviewers have been addressed in the '09 model. When is Honda going to address the biggest complaint about the CR-V? Hint: it lies under the hood.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    Side and curtain airbags as well as TC and AdvanceTrac with RSC are all standard for '09 in the Escape. In fact, all of the biggest complaints against the Escape from professional reviewers have been addressed in the '09 model.

    So four years after the fact. My '05 CR-V had all those standard which was the primary reason I chose it over the Escape.

    When is Honda going to address the biggest complaint about the CR-V? Hint: it lies under the hood.

    I don't see them ever putting a V6 under the hood of the CR-V. It sounds like they might put their stellar 2.2 diesel there, though. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I don't see them ever putting a V6 under the hood of the CR-V. It sounds like they might put their stellar 2.2 diesel there, though.

    Having just had my first ever $50 fillup in my Accord, I bet you're right. Top CUV sales status says they won't either.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Posts: 1,653
    I totally agree. From now through the foreseeable future, fuel economy will trump power for the majority of auto buyers.

    I have to believe that the auto manufacturers are scrambling right now to bring out more efficient versions of existing models. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Yep. How much faster do we need to go, anyway? 9 to 10 seconds to 60mph is plenty for me. My 8-second to 60 4-cyl Accord feels downright fast.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Top CUV sales status says they won't either.

    Let me remind you that the Escape was the top seller for a while and Ford did little to change it. Now it is no longer the top seller and they are changing things. So you think Honda will let the CR-V wither on the vine too then?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    It sounds like they might put their stellar 2.2 diesel there, though.

    Ahhh the diesel. I too once thought that was the answer but what I've been reading about it lately says otherwise. Diesel fuel is $1+ more per gallon than regular unleaded around here so the savings are minimal at best. That's before you factor in the higher purchase price of a diesel equipped vehicle. It also seems that producing more diesel to meet rising demand isn't a matter of flipping a switch at the refinery. Apparently they would have to upgrade the facilities which would in turn raise the price even more.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    So you think Honda will let the CR-V wither on the vine too then?

    Nope, but the CR-V is hardly withering at 2 years old. They have undergone powertrain changes every two or three years. In 1999 or 2000, they added 20hp. In 2002, they replaced a 2.0L with a torquier and more powerful 2.4L. In 2005, they swapped a 4-speed auto for a 5-speed. In 2007, they added 10 horses and upped fuel economy.

    2.0L 126hp 4speed (1997)
    2.0L 146hp 4speed (1999)
    2.4L 156hp 4speed (2002)
    2.4L 156hp 5speed (2005)
    2.4L 166hp 5speed (2007)

    You'll see a MMC at 2010, and a FMC at 2012 or so.

    Ford went waaaay too long without changing any noticeable components. In fact, three generations of CR-V existed in one model cycle of Escape. Below are 2001 and 2007 Escapes and CR-Vs. See how much things changed on one end and not another? Yes, I know the Escape got a mild refresh for 08, but the components are still the same, 8 years later.

    Having a V6 isn't necessary for small CUV buyers as the overwhelming CR-V sales, and vehicles like the hot new Nissan Rogue are proving. Leave a V6 in the Flex; it needs one. A large-displacement I4 is plenty for most people. For those that aren't satisfied, the RAV4, Outlander, and Escape V6 exist. Sales are showing that many are in-fact satisfied, however.

    image
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  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    You are correct that producing more diesel isn't just a flip of the switch but the price is also a reflection of the seasonal rise and fall of diesel. It's higher now but it'll be lower this winter and it all averages out in the end. Enough to counteract the original price? I don't know. It should easily be more economically feasible than the Escape Hybrid, though. Plus, it will certainly have ALL the power anyone needs to have out of a small SUV to out-tow any V6 available in the segment.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Plus, it will certainly have ALL the power anyone needs to have out of a small SUV to out-tow any V6 available in the segment.

    Unfortunately for the CR-V, and the other small SUVs, power is not the limiting factor in it's towing capabilities. The towing numbers likely won't change much but might finally match those of the V6 models.

    It should easily be more economically feasible than the Escape Hybrid, though.

    Why is that? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really want to know. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I was about to jump in and say the same thing about the CR-V's towing. It's not the power that is the problem. You beat me to it. :)

    It should easily be more economically feasible than the Escape Hybrid, though.

    Why is that? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really want to know.


    I'm guessing he's thinking it'll be cheaper to buy and run in the long run. As of right now, though, we don't know the pricing for a diesel Honda in America. We also don't know what battery replacement will cost for the Escape a few years down the road.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,784
    "toyota only redesigns the camry platform every 10-12 years, they change the body and everyone thinks it is all new. obviously they have good design to start with, but it really isn't so different from other manufacturers. a lot of it is perception."

    As it happens I owned a 1994 Camry and a 1997 Camry. They were completely different. I suppose the engine and transmission may have been the same, but the body and interior were new. And of course the 1992 Camry was also new.

    Similarly, the 2001-2002 CR-V was a complete change, and the 2006-1007 CR-V was a complete change.

    My own observation is that the Japanese manufacturers do a complete change every 5 years, with a minor refresh in the middle.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,618
    i swear i read that somewhere, but 6 years later i can't find it, so i'll cry uncle!
    after all these years, i still think the escape body design was done right and didn't need a lot of changes. of course, there is still a lot of room for improvement in other areas. my wife is talking about getting a hybrid version next year. our current one would be passed onto one of the kids.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    It should easily be more economically feasible than the Escape Hybrid, though.

    Why is that? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I really want to know.


    I'm guessing he's thinking it'll be cheaper to buy and run in the long run. As of right now, though, we don't know the pricing for a diesel Honda in America. We also don't know what battery replacement will cost for the Escape a few years down the road.

    Correct. The price premium for the FEH is ~ 3k. Diesels in general (look around) run about an extra 2k. You can buy a LOT of extra fuel for a $1000, although a diesel CR-V should better the FEH in fuel economy based on the adjusted European numbers. Not to mention the simplicity and durability of a diesel vs. the prospect of battery replacement, as thegraduate pointed out.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    i still think the escape body design was done right and didn't need a lot of changes. of course, there is still a lot of room for improvement in other areas.

    Very true. The Escape has always been a handsome, if rather bland-looking vehicle; one that really shouldn't turn any people off (unlike the new radical CR-V design). They could have made other adjustments though, at least a 5-speed auto for the engines which would help usable power a great deal, and fuel economy as well. Another personal gripe was the interior was pretty tired after 6 or 7 years, although the basic design was still just fine. Below is a 2006 model. They never had overwhelmingly good quality (something I think most would agree the CR-V has mastered).

    image
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    My issues w/the Escape were and always have been:

    1) No real commitment to safety. I don't think standard safety features on most vehicles should require a premium. I was told by a salesman that the reason I was having trouble finding an Escape w/side and curtain airbags is customers didn't feel like they needed them. Well, three years and 46,000 miles later neither have I and I pray I never will but I won't purchase another family vehicle w/o them.

    2) No real commitment to a 4 cylinder engine. I felt and still feel the 4 cylinder was offered to push people into a V6. A four is more than enough for the vast majority of us and even the most ardent Ford supporters would have trouble defending the pathetic 2.3 the Escape had up until a year or two ago.

    3) No major model changes. It is impossible, w/all the upgrades in safety, body structure, material upgrades, etc., that a design penned in the late 90s can be competitive w/competion from the past year or two. Ford, in its shortsightedness, is more concerned w/current amortization than their future market share and they are paying cost, dearly.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    No real commitment to safety. I don't think standard safety features on most vehicles should require a premium. I was told by a salesman that the reason I was having trouble finding an Escape w/side and curtain airbags is customers didn't feel like they needed them.

    This has always been the option model for the big 3 though. You could still get all your airbags as an option if you wanted them. If you didn't want them, then you didn't have to pay for them. You were not paying a premium for them either and Honda did raise the price of the CR-V when they added those standard airbags. You paid roughly the same price for them in both vehicles.

    That being said, Ford did announce that they are moving away from that old a la carte model and into one more like Honda's. The Flex is the first to follow the new model and it will be offered in 3 trims with far fewer options than Ford is traditionally known to offer because most of them are standard now. The drawback, just like with Honda, is that the base prices for the individual trim levels are higher than they would have been under the old model due to the added standard equipment.

    No major model changes. It is impossible, w/all the upgrades in safety, body structure, material upgrades, etc., that a design penned in the late 90s can be competitive w/competion from the past year or two.

    But it has been competitive. Don't expect to see anything dramatic over the next couple of years either as it looks highly likely that the European Ford Kuga will be the next Escape in 2010 or 2011.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    But it has been competitive.

    Not when comparing acceleration to fuel economy, which is a BIG part of the buying equation, for me anyway - sort of a "how much go do I get for my dough" idea. These days, that'll put the hurt on sales. A 4-cylinder CR-V (20/27) has no problem running with a V6 Escape (18/24).
  • dromedariusdromedarius Posts: 307
    This has always been the option model for the big 3 though. You could still get all your airbags as an option if you wanted them. If you didn't want them, then you didn't have to pay for them. You were not paying a premium for them either and Honda did raise the price of the CR-V when they added those standard airbags. You paid roughly the same price for them in both vehicles.

    But I'm saying I couldn't even find an Escape w/airbags when I was shopping in the spring of '05. I understand that I am paying for the airbags in a Honda, but they have also largely amortized the costs, the same approach Ford takes w/their entire vehicle, the problem being Honda's approach is very forward thinking and Ford's is very backward. It's like when Henry Ford said you could get a Model T in any color you liked, as long as it was black...very myopic for someone so visionary. True, he saved a few bucks but he also lost his virtual monopoly. Spend a little up front to make a lot on the back end.

    You bring up a good point w/your a la carte statement. I think this is a problem for the domestic manufacturers. They want to provide every option independent of others but it's hard to find exactly the ones we want anyway. The result is customers still don't get what they want along w/higher manufacturing costs. I actually prefer Toyota to Honda because they a) make the safety equipment standard and b) don't smother me w/options I probably won't get anyway.

    :sick:
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