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CR-V vs Escape

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Comments

  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    Baggs, I strongly doubt that Honda will not take it seriously that they are getting beat with sales! They did with the Taurus and now look at the sales for the Accord! Competition has a funny way of causing change and I don't believe Honda will allow its baby (CRV) to be beat.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    baggs- Honda doesn't have the capacity to build that many CR-V's. Even at its best, the last generation CR-V only sold ~150,000 units per year.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    I am no mechanic but it would seem (from what I have been told) that that little fussy light can come on for MANY reasons and usually it has something to do with the emissions system. I had this happen to me about 7 years ago with a Hyundai Sonata I rented (yes I have rented them as well) and it was only because the computer felt there was too much emissions escaping from the catalytic converter!!! Go figure. 90% of the time, it is an easy fix.

    I was only repeating what she told me the dealer fixed.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    Diploid.....I think you are right. Honda does not build more than 150000 units but that should be verified.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    diploid,

    The Escape only accounts for about 70-75% of KC's output. That comes out to about 175,000 Escapes and 75,000 Tributes. Anyone know where I can find real production numbers? These are all based on articles.


    As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units (based on YTD at the end of July 2002 http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp ).


    You might want to start rambling on about incentives and rebates now. Just keep in mind that the Escape's rebate is the lowest of any Ford vehicle ($1000), and it is excluded from the 0.0% financing along with the Thunderbird and SVT line. It has 2.9/3.9/4.9% for 36/48/60 months instead. Good, but not exactly mind blowing like 0.0%. Even with the $1000 off it is still more expensive than the CR-V when you load 'em up with all the goodies.


    Here are all of Ford's discounts. Note that the 2003 Escape has no rebate or special rate at all.


    http://www.fordvehicles.com/features/news/description/index.asp?artID=208

  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    check with autosite.com

    CR-V year to date numbers are 88,209. There's only 4 months left until the end of the year - I doubt they'll exceed 150,000 units. So even if it's possible that they can build 250,000 units a year, it certainly isn't being sold in the U.S.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    "As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units"

    You forget that people are paying MSRP for the CR-V...obviously they're not producing enough to be able to outsell the Escape by many more units.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    "You forget that people are paying MSRP for the CR-V"

    How did I forget? I just said a couple of posts ago how an Escape bought with the $1000 rebate is still more expensive than a CR-V without any rebates. Go read through the CR-V board and you'll find that most people are not paying MSRP for their new CR-V's. The dealers are coming down somewhat.

    "obviously they're not producing enough to be able to outsell the Escape by many more units."

    You just said in post 1806 that they probably won't even sell the estimated 150,000 that they will produce this year. So obviously they could sell more.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Baggs - Obviously those are opinions. Do you see anything else in this forum? The environment is an issue. Maybe not in everyone's corner of the country, but it's big enough to have the auto industry scared of CARB. Whenever they talk about raising CAFE standards, Honda is the only one saying, "yeah, we can do that".

    Regarding sales:

    Warren is correct. Ford has many more dealerships than Honda. Add Mazda to that total and this becomes a true David and Goliath bout. If you put Pee Wee Herman in the ring with Mike Tyson and Pee Wee won half the matches, would you be impressed with Mike Tyson?

    Yearly sales for the CR-V have never topped more than 130,000 units. I think they hit 120+ back in 1999. However, this number has nothing to do with total production. The CR-V is sold in most every country where Honda sells cars. That's why they opened the line at the Swindon plant; to provide cars to other markets. US sales have little to do with actual production.

    Also, this year's sales has been hampered by a lack of CR-V's from the Swindon plant. July was the first month when the US got CR-Vs from Swindon. Notice July was a record breaking month.

    I do not have a crystal ball for automotive sales (it's on back order), but it certainly looks like the CR-V will now settle into its sales groove. With more units being supplied from Swindon, supply will meet demand, prices will drop, and more units will go out the door. I don't expect every month to be as good as July, but I wouldn't be surprised if the last quarter is better than the first three.

    "As someone else made mention of, what should be more amazing to everyone is how a brand new model/design is only outselling one that is two years old by only 6596 units "

    As for the new vs. old issue. It is true that the Escape is now about 2 years old. However, the CR-V has now been on the market close to a year. The difference is more like 12-16 months. In "car years" that's pretty darn close. Regardless, the CR-V held on as sales champ from 1997 to 2000. It saw no less than 5 new designs as challengers. The Escape got TKO'd after one year. Actually, the CR-V outsold the Escape in its first full month of sales. A month or two later, the CR-V outsold both the Escape and the Tribute.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    "You just said in post 1806 that they probably won't even sell the estimated 150,000 that they will produce this year. So obviously they could sell more. "

    I never said that. What I said was that the last generation CR-V, at its best, sold only ~150,000 - which was meant to refute your claims that Honda builds 250,000 units annually (post #1797). It's nice that you try to take things out of context, but when it's only a few posts up and easily readible to others, it just doesn't work.

    And yes, if they could produce more their sales lead over the Escape would be greater.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    varmint,
    I was wondering where you were. I forgot to add that I do not think people carry shopping bags home in UHaul trailers. That was sarcasm, which I guess isn't as easily detected when read as opposed to heard. I don't like to use those little =) and LOL's so you're all going to have to deal with it!

    "Obviously those are opinions. Do you see anything else in this forum?"

    No, not much else. I was under the impression that you were trying to prove to us that the CR-V is the better "daily driver".

    "In "car years" that's pretty darn close."

    Not to me it isn't. Just ask my wife, I want a new one every month! LO (nope can't do it)

    " It saw no less than 5 new designs as challengers."

    You mean like the Sportage from that historied truck giant Kia? The XTerra is actually a truck, which puts it the same ball park, but on a different team. The RAV4 should do better but they are way over priced when you start to add options (A/C is an option on those things for cryin' out loud). What were the other two? I'm drawing a blank right now. I hope you weren't counting the Tracker or the Subaru STATION WAGONS.

    "Add Mazda to that total and this becomes a true David and Goliath bout."

    You can still only sell as many as you produce. I can't find the official numbers anywhere.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    Baggs, I paid below MSRP BUT only at one dealer. For whatever reason he was quite a lot cheaper than about 4 others I called. Your logic for the Escape may be right about being 1000$ off but there is also the fact of financing at rates below banks. This may account for the increase in price compared to the CRV! They (Ford) are keeping the price up to pay for the loss in financing rates. The fact is, they are both selling well because they fulfill many various needs.

    Here in Canada (or at least in Québec) the 2002 model came out in December 2001 so it has only been on sale for about 8 months and is all over the road so things are well. I doubt that it has outsold the Escape however but is very close. There are a lot of Ford dealers here.

    Hey......I noticed something going to lunch today. I was behind an Escape and noticed that the suspension parts attached to the rear wheels underneath, are very close to the ground! Would that not be a problem off roading? I looked under mine and noticed they were a lot higher up. Don't know how much relevence this has but I was curious!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    post 1805:
    "check with autosite.com

    CR-V year to date numbers are 88,209. There's only 4 months left until the end of the year - I doubt they'll exceed 150,000 units. So even if it's possible that they can build 250,000 units a year, it certainly isn't being sold in the U.S."

    diploid,
    OK, so it was post 1805 not 1806. I think we're on two different wavelengths right now and I don't care to go into it any more. I know this because your last post made absolutely no sense to me. Obviously it meant something to you.

    250,000 CR-V's produced was a guess and I used the 150,000 number in the posts after it. Why you kept trying to refute it is beyond me.

    I won't tell your mommy if you don't tell mine.

    hondaman,
    "The fact is, they are both selling well because they fulfill many various needs."

    You're right. I just can't believe you just typed that! You're a whole different person from a couple of months ago.

    The Escape's finance rates are a little lower now because the CR-V has made some fierce competition in the past few months. They have to get the price down somehow. When we bought ours in January, no deals were to be had. Ford had all that 0.0% stuff going on back then but the Escape had no rebates or special finance rates at all. Up until a couple of months ago they were selling for full sticker (give or take a few hundred) like the CR-V is now. I almost wish we had waited.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "You mean like the Sportage from that historied truck giant Kia? The XTerra is actually a truck, which puts it the same ball park, but on a different team. The RAV4 should do better but they are way over priced when you start to add options (A/C is an option on those things for cryin' out loud). What were the other two? I'm drawing a blank right now. I hope you weren't counting the Tracker or the Subaru STATION WAGONS." - Baggs

    Well, according that logic, the CR-V and Escape are the only two vehicles in this class. You may not like it, but plenty of people cross shop true SUVs with crossovers and AWD wagons.

    The Kia still hasn't been redesigned. It was already on the market when the CR-V was introduced. The first was the Forester (which is very much a competitor in this class) back in '98. In '99, Suzuki replaced the Sidekick with the Vitara/Tracker and Grand Vitara. I count them as one vehicle. Then came the Xterra. Despite winning MT's truck of the year, it has never outsold the CR-V. Then the RAV4 was redesigned and hit the showrooms at about the same time as the Escape. Despite funky new sheetmetal, more content, and lots of ads, it failed to oust the five-year-old CR-V.

    The Escape is the only model to sell more units than the CR-V for any significant length of time. It was only able to do so when competing with a design that was five years out of date. As soon as the CR-V was redesigned, the Escape lost ground.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Posts: 1,110
    Do you think the redesigned RAV4 was intended to oust the CR-V?
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Hondaman - Yes, the Escape's hubs are lower to the ground, but it's not really an issue. I think CR actually uses that measurement for ground clearance, but it's quite silly.

    When you drive off-road, you should put your tires *on* the rocks. Anything close to the tire and attached to it will shift upward with the tire. The differential in the center doesn't not shift (at least not very much). Because of its location, it is the most likely part to get scraped over a rock.

    The only time I can see the design being a problem is if you were driving through deep ruts.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    While I'm thinking of it, I forgot to mention the Santa Fe earlier. So make that total six.

    Suvshopper - It is entirely possible that Toyota decided not to compete directly with the CR-V and other larger vehicles. Instead they opted to try for a smaller piece of the pie. I can see two reasons why they might go that route.

    1. Toyota knew they couldn't compete head to head with the increasing number of vehicles in the small SUV class. So they stuck with the original Mini-SUV design and are trying to capitalize on a sub-category.

    2. Making the RAV4 large enough to go head to head with the CR-V, Escape, Santa Fe, Liberty, Xterra, and VUE would have put it in close competition with the 4 cyl Highlander. Even though selling more units would be great for the RAV4, it would hurt the Highlander. So the RAV4 takes a hit for the team.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    Baggs, I am not a different person from a couple of months ago really........only when reliability is an issue here will I really argue and I think you know that. Anything else, NO not really. I would not like people telling what to buy and I have said that before afterall, my work is based on that principal. I also mentioned that I have a couple of friends that own an Escape and the woman I work with, a Tribute and they have no complaints other than a few squabbles with the dealer and some minor (to you guys) reliability issues BUT they love their vehicle. I also think that we argue so much because these are the best of the bunch HOWEVER, I did not say that I wanted one!

    I guess it's kind of like scape.......you either love him or""""*&*?*%$%$$$ him! LOL (oops! sorry baggs.....I know you don't like those!)

    p.s. thanks varmint, I was just curious.......looked a little low to me.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    I sort of disagree with the conversation today as I believe the CRV is kind of in a class of its own. It does not tow as much, has a 4 cyl. engine (but powerful mind you) and smaller tires. I think Honda wants the market of a big tall car instead of a more "truck" based idea. Honda has never really seen the relevence of this as they are the only major manufacturer that does not have a pick-up. It wants to be the major force in a good, roomy people hauler instaed of a gas guzzler truck driving vehicle. That is the way I see it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    varmint,
    All those other SUV's were valiant attempts, but they don't come close to the CR-V and Escape in terms of usability, comfort, and value. The Santa Fe was the closest if you ask me. I really thought they had something special there when I first saw one in the SAM's Club parking lot last year.

    The Kia, Chevy/Geo/Suziki, and Nissan are too truck like to fully compete if you ask me. Throw the Liberty in there too. The name Jeep means a lot to a lot of people so it was bound to do well. I'm still not going to include the station wagons even if deep down I know that they are real competitors. That leaves the Escape/Tribute, CR-V, Santa Fe, VUE, and RAV4 (did I miss any?) to compete for the car based SUV segment.

    Now that I look at it, I guess I'm splitting the class into two parts because that is basically how I shopped for one of these. I believe that many other people do the same thing which is why I also mentioned a ways back that the Pilot will be very successful. It's a minivan with AWD that looks somewhat like a truck, what's not to like?

    Same ball park, different teams.

    I really don't know why I just typed all of that. I was just keeping my fingers busy while my backups finish.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    There are a number of ways you can split this segment.

    Truckish vs. Car-like

    Economy vs. Utility

    Mini-ute vs. Small-ute

    Fun vs Practical

    IMHO, the CR-V kinda straddles the line in most all aspects.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I'll give it all but Mini-ute vs Small-Ute and Fun vs Practical. It's within inches of the bigger small SUV's (probaly goes the other way too), and it just looks big to me.

    I also had issues with its practicality (too many quirks) when I was shopping around.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    It's not an exact science or anything. As always, I'm sure everyone will have different criteria.

    Mini vs. Small - The CR-V has the exterior of a small SUV, but the engine is more like a Mini-SUV. Most Small SUVs are based on a V6, and offer a 4 cyl to catch frugal buyers. The CR-V is a four cylinder design, through and through.

    Fun vs Practical - This is a tricky one because "practical" is similar to "utility". The styling is certainly whimsical in its own way, though nothing like the RAV4. It's a runabout vehicle with some youthful appeal. On the other hand, it is also a sensible commuter car with good fuel economy, emissions, safety, passenger room, cargo space, and trick features.

    I'm sure that if we determined some criteria for each scale, the CR-V would not land smack in the middle of every one. I just think it would be close more often than any other vehicle.
  • freeberfreeber Posts: 116
    Lots to catch up on...

    Varmint: Great Princess Bride reference. Laughed out loud in the middle of my office.

    Scape2: I read your response before I left on vacation. Quite frankly I forgot what it said now, but I don't recall any of it being offensive. (But then again I've had a post deleted for being obscene and never really understood the reach to obscenity) Is there a PM feature here? I don't much care to post my email to the world as I get PLENTY of SPAM already.

    Hondaman01(02): You had a post in which you referenced reading through the Escape/Tribute and CRV trouble boards, yet you lambasted Varmint for suggesting that those weren't really good places to get hard facts on reliablility. The impression I got was he was trying to beat the Ford boys to the punch in stating that you have to take those boards with a grain of salt.

    Whotheman: (scratches head...gives it a second thought...nevermind)

    We can sure take up alot of space repeating the same things, can't we? I still say comparing a 4Cyl to a 6Cyl in just plain silly. Even if the difference is .6 Liters. I think its clear that Ford and Honda were OBVIOUSLY interested in 2 different things when they made these vehicles. Ford was targeting Ranger owners who grew up and couldn't afford an Expedition. They now had families and need to haul their toys around. Honda was targeting their standard core who wanted saftey and reliability combined with Honda efficiency in a larger package. This core also grew up and wanted to be higher off the road. Towing was never really something HONDA needed to be concerned with in their car line, and I would bet that still plays a significant role in why they haven't fully addressed it to date: They are targeting their existing core and that core never really complained about not being able to tow.

    In a nutshell: Honda was designing a mini-ute for previous car owners and Ford was designing a mini-ute for truck owners. Those people typically have very distinct differences in their needs.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    You are incorrect. According to http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp


    The Escape/Tribute outsold the CRV in July.

  • np1908np1908 Posts: 39
    Escape is more of a truck-based SUV. Whereas CR-V is more of a car-based SUV. There are pros and cons in both the vehicles and both generally appeal to different segments of people. Of course, people may do cross-shopping - but the one that scores will be accordingly to one's personality tastes for a car-like OR truck-based SUV.
    The most car-like SUV are CR-V / RAV-4 / VUE. Perhaps, comparison of these three are more in order.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    Sorry bess, I thought someone posted sales for July but maybe it was June. I am not sure anymore.......Oh all this confusion!!!!!!
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Posts: 250
    WAIT A MINUTE......I said Escape not both so I was right but at the same time wrong!!!! Anybody get that? I guess I forgot about the Tribute!
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    HOndaman, you make it sound like your friends Tribute was falling apart and going to blow up because the check engine light came on! Just a measly sensor???
    Escape is by far not a "gas guzzler" I got a strong 24MPG WITH 4 bikes 4 people, and loaded down with luggage, now I believe it was Diploid who said he got 26?? Trying to find the post... 2MPG!??? Not a huge difference here folks.. The CRv may get about an extra 20-25miles per tank??
    CRV sure gets knocked for its styling... Every review I read says somthing about its awkward styling, frontend, rear lights.. ect... Also those small, itty, bitty tires LOL! on that tall vehicle..
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    I am not the Ford fanatic some of you think I am. Not like HOnda fanatics I have run across. First REAL problem with my Escape... I lost my Sub woofer I in my Mach 6 Stero system!! Thats it.. I'm trading it in!....
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