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CR-V vs Escape

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Comments

  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    "Have you ever heard of a magazine rating a Honda as bad? I have not and if someone did......prove it!"

    There's got to be something about the Passport out there.

    bess's point with the Odyssey was that Edmunds had several problems with their copy, but still didn't give it a bad rating. Look at the new Civic, 4 or 5 recalls and the mags still think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. The Escape was hammered for its recalls around the same time.

    This of course works both ways, but problematic Honda's seem to fare far better than the others when it comes to reviews.

    And now Deep Thoughts...

    Maybe Honda is spending it's incentive money on reviewer payoffs? Could be the way to go.
  • Maybe ignorant was the wrong word and scape I did not mean that literally! I was only mentioning the issue at hand.

    I also believe that he will run his Escape to 200 000 plus BUT I also agree that this has not been the norm in my opinion. I am sure he takes very good care of it like I do as well and that helps for sure.

    The sales of the CRV are starting to once again take the lead as I thought they would after a certain time. I am a little surprised afterall Ford has some good deals going now but I guess people are not really concerned with that.
  • Baggs....the Passport is built 100% by Isuzu and Honda was more than happy to get rid of it!

    Problematic Honda's exist yes BUT they fix the problem and move on......Ford has struggled with the Focus since day one and I am happy that the Escape has not had simular fate so far but it is still up and down and far from consistent!

    I really doubt your "Deep Thought" but maybe Ford should start doing this soon!
  • daveghhdaveghh Posts: 495
    Baggs,
    I seriously doubt there is any payoff from Honda and the Passport is an Isuzu Rodeo with a Honda badge stamped on it. The engineering quality of Honda is superior to Ford without a doubt.

    The only reason why the big 3 have improved their reliability so much is becasue the foreign manufactuerers set the industry standard and had to follow or else they would be belly up right now. The big 3 reliability record is where the japanese manufactuerers were 20 something years ago. Not to mention the leading edge technology of improving HP while maintaining mileage and improving emissions! The latter just reinforces my claim of Honda's superior engineering skill.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    "the Passport is built 100% by Isuzu and Honda was more than happy to get rid of it!"

    I knew that was coming. That is exactly what someone who doesn't believe Honda can make mistakes would say. Honda obviously thought enough of the vehicle to put their shiny little "H" on the grille. Either that or profits at the expense of the consumer were what motivated them. Either way, from that point on all of the Passport problems belonged to Honda. Isuzu had nothing to do with it.

    But wait, it can't be profits at the expense of the consumer! Only the domestic manufacturers like Ford do things like that right?

    *edit*
    And yet another...
    "and the Passport is an Isuzu Rodeo with a Honda badge stamped on it."
  • freeberfreeber Posts: 116
    Can you imagine if Ford bought Honda so it could lunge forward technology-wise? I wouldn't put it past one of the big 3 to try something like this not to far in the future.

    And Baggs, please. Honda made a mistake and low and behold THEY FIXED IT!!! They dumped the Passport as soon as they were able to replace it. I never said nobody but Ford has done such a thing, I said Ford has built their company on it for about 35 to 40 years now. And they aren't changing course.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Steve - The Daily Scape is just for fun. That's why I don't editorialize much on the articles. If Scape2 is going to accuse me of Ford bashing, I might as well do the deed.

    Scape2 - You're missing the point. You have been claiming that the CR-V is a high revver. In other words, it makes power only in the high rpms. My numerous posts about the CR-V's flat torque curve prove you wrong on that point. It has nothing to do with max power.

    Baggs or Bess - (Sorry, I forgot which of you asked). I'm basing my claim regarding the CR-V's flatter torque curve based on several points.

    1. We know that the CR-V has a very flat torque curve. We have the data to back it up.

    2. We know that the Escape reaches peak torque at a very high RPM and only a few hundred rpms lower than the peak hp. That means the torque curve drops dramatically after it reaches it's peak. So it isn't flat after it's peak.

    3. Unlike the Jag version of the Duratec, the Escape's 3.0L does not have any form of variable valve timing, lift, or phase control. It does not have a turbo, supercharger, or variable length intake/exhaust piping. There is no hardware which would allow the engine to handle both high and low RPM performance. An engine with no such hardware must make a choice between low power, mid-range power, and high-end power. We know for a fact (see bullet 2) that the Ford V6 uses high end power.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Freeber - Several companies have courted Honda over the past decade. I think GM was the most persistent.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    "Honda made a mistake and low and behold THEY FIXED IT!!!"

    How many years did that take?
  • freeberfreeber Posts: 116
    Baggs, you usually make very good arguements and come off as the voice of reason, but I fail to see what your point is here.

    I'm sure Honda had to sign a long term deal with Izuzu to badge that thing a Honda. Lets be conservative and say 3 years. Honda pops out the Passport and it flops a bit. Well maybe next year is better. Boy, now its year 3, this thing stinks, and we have no alternative. Sign us on for another 3 to give us time to develop our own. Hmmm taking longer than planned, lets extend once more.

    I'm guessing. The point is it was a mistake to ever badge that thing a Honda and any HONDA owner knows it. Honda has built a fine product to fill the gap. Lets just say for kicks, Honda realized at year 4 or 5 that this wasn't going to live up to what Honda owners demand. A 4 to 5 year design to production cycle for a completely new vehicle doesn't seem too outlandish to me.

    And lets not forget, the Passport wasn't exactly a Corvair. It sure had some bumbs and wasn't traditional Honda quality, but it wasn't a death trap either. (and don't spin that of on another tangent, I'm not calling any Ford death traps)
  • Baggs the best way to answer your question is to look at the Saturn Vue and think about why they are putting Honda engines in them next year!
  • daveghhdaveghh Posts: 495
    ....and Saturn is a GM company, one of the big 3!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    The point was that all manufacturers are going to have problems from time to time. Some of us (I'm not singling anyone out here either) choose to forget that every now and again.


    Ford is a very easy target right now because of the whole tire thing, and they are being made to look worse than they really are when it comes to quality and reliability. They, along with all the other makers, always have had, and always will make mistakes. Some more than others. Yes they have admitted to some quality issues recently. Wouldn't you if your company logo was on the local and/or national news almost every night? What are they supposed to say when not one shred of good news has been reported about them for over a year? People are eating that stuff up for lunch. They're still buying their products in large quantities though.


    Everyone keeps saying how Honda fixes a problem and it's gone, but Ford doesn't. First of all, for some reason you don't ever hear of Honda's problems (and it's not because they don't have any). Second, Ford and the other domestics do the same thing, and they are all getting better at it. The foreign's are just evolving a little faster, maybe because they have to, maybe not. Someone said that Japan has/had some of the worst air on earth, and that is a big reason why Honda along with the others from over there have been so environmentally conscious. Lets face it, the big three aren't going to do anything like that until someone makes them. I can't really think of any other U.S. companies that would either. The domestic automakers will just stick a bigger engine in the bay and sell to the "other half".


    I'll let you folks take it from here...


    hondaman,

    "The Odysseys problems have been fixed for a long time and it is now one of the hottest vans on the market and the most reliable in its category!"


    Regardless of all that, the Windstar outsold the Odyssey last year and is very close this year. My sister has a Windstar (used, 2000 I think) and my cousin has an early Odyssey (bought new in 2000 I think). Both are very nice vehicles, but only one of them has had some problems. I'll let you guess which one that was.


    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp

  • wheelz4wheelz4 Posts: 569
    Although I'm critical of Ford's reliablilty/quality issues, I do like some of the products they make. Other than a somewhat cheap looking interior, the Escape is one nice little SUV.....much better than a CR-V for towing and I like it's AWD system (and the ability to lock it....Honda should put it's MDX system in the CR-V) better too. The Focus wagon (especially in ZTS trim) would almost perfectly fit my needs and has an unbeatable combination of space, style and economy. That being said, Bess, I think your family's experience with Ford is the exception rather than the rule, and until FORD stops being an acronym for Factory Ordered Recalls 'n Defects, they won't be on my car shopping list.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    Saturn hasn't had a good engine in any of its cars in like, forever. I don't see how they are not going to have to raise the price to another level where the VUE will be competing with the Pilot, Explorer, Durango, etc..

    I've also said a million times that Honda does make some of the best engines out there. They still make mistakes (that you never hear about anyway) sometimes.
  • Which vehicle sells more - what does it really matter?

    Do you want to see your model vehicle coming and going everywhere on the roads?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    suvshopper,
    It doesn't matter to me, but sales volumes have become a recurring theme around here. I'm just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to posting them though.

    "Do you want to see your model vehicle coming and going everywhere on the roads?"

    The more the merrier I say. High sales volumes usually translate into higher Edmunds Town Hall membership volumes for the respective models. Ask Steve and/or Tidester for the numbers. Meaning you can get more help, advice, experiences, etc. if you want. Those are just some of the upsides of course. Lower resale value could be considered a down side to high sales.
  • I hear you.

    I think a lot of people like to be #1 in sales with their model because it validates their choice. It means more people agree with them.

    BOTH the models here in this topic (and others, ahem) can be the right choice for any number of serious shoppers.
  • daveghhdaveghh Posts: 495
    Since I have owned my CRV, my sister, my friend and my father all bought a CRV because they were exposed to the CRV through me and they recognized my good experience. Since then we all have had great experiences. Its nice to introduce family and friends into a good investment, especially when they are expensive like a car.

    BTW 2 out of 3 people above used to buy Jeeps and Fords and Chevy's but now they say they wont go back to American cars because they have had such great experiences. At first they were cautious about repair costs becasue it costs more to repair a Honda and they were used to dumping money into their cars. Now, they realize it may be expensive to replace a part but they haven't had to since their Honda's.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    When making statements about others, be sure to be looking in a mirror as well.. For example the quote from a Honda fan about Ford owners:
    "Passion can lead one to turn a blind eye to somethings sometimes."

    Duh, I think this applies to both Honda and Ford fanatics..
    ---------
    Another quote from a Honda fan
    "Have you ever heard of a magazine rating a Honda as bad? I have not and if someone did......prove it!"

    I have shown articles (some here on Edmunds) where magazines show they have many problems with Honda's and in the exact same article then goes on to overlook those problems and rate the Honda as awsome.. See previous comment on blind eyes.

    -------
    Varmit on torque curves:
    You are only speculating what the curve might look like based on where you see the peak vs hp.. Your 'assuming' that there's a sharp drop off, and your 'assuming' that its a slow ramp up. Neither of which you've shown.. It doesn't just take advanced VVT technology to produce broad torque curves. Bore, stroke, duration, heads, exhaust all play a part (not to mention 2 extra cylinders). Also, you have not shown the CRV torque curve, again your 'assuming' that it is more broad than the V6.. Your speculations are far from 'proof'.

    ---------
    Freeber, in your previous post, what exactly was your point (item 4). I am friends with someone who was an engineer at Honda motor company. He was telling me about the quality standards at Honda (which are impressive), however the goal at that time was to make the best part that would last exactly 5 years. (at that time in the early 80's it appeared most American manufactures did not have such standards).. So you are correct, all companies do this.

    Also, if Americans standards drop every day, then why did the Big3 make such improvements in the early 80's? I suspect it was again thanks to the Japanese showing you can have good quality and be inexpensive. However since that time, the playing field has leveled.
    ----

    America as arrogant.. Doesn't seem that way if you visit France..
  • Just go to your local Honda dealership to get a CRV brochure...it has the HP and torque curve you asked for.

    As for the engine specs, go look at Escape's engine. It is a car engine...again, a Taurus engine.
  • bessbess Posts: 972
    The CRV engine is also a car engine, (a 4 cylinder car engine at that). Show me the curve on the Escape (or Taurus) engine.. Then show me that it's less broad. At which RPM is the torque less on the Escape than the CRV? (honest question that I just don't know).

    Sorry, I don't make it a habit to visit dealership if I'm not shopping for a new vehicle.
  • I have to agree with dave, word of mouth is the Honda way........Once you try it you either want one or not. In most cases, people want one. I am leaving for 3 days tomorrow morning and have rented a V6 2002 Toyota Camry as I could not get an Accord. I think it is a great car. Now if I would have rented a Taurus, I would not have liked it. It is not as refined and the quality is mediocre to say the least. I have rented a few Taurus's in the past and was not impressed at all!

    Bess...have you read the Automobile Mag article??? Have you ever read an article about a Hond aproduct having such complex and rediculous problems? If you say yes, link it as I would love to read it! At Ford "Quality is NOT Job One"!! Whatever happened to that logo anyways?

    "Saturn hasn't had a good engine in any of its cars in like, forever" Baggs.
    I find it odd that the biggest company in the world does not have an engine for the VUE! I thought they had a whole bunch of new engines coming out!? Guess they want to make sure that reliability will help sell Saturns more even though they are the best American company. This vehicle is supposed to be in direct competition with the CRV and Escape but at a more upscale market. Honda will be happy if they sell as this will mean more engines... It will be priced in between the Pilot and the CRV. Should be a great hit! 240 HP! 32 valves i-vtec ooooooh! I can just hear scape now when it blows by him!

    Baggs, the only reason the Windstar outsold the Odyseey is first because it (Honda) is 6-10 thousand dollars more and second Ford makes about 3 times more of them with 0% interest but mainly it's the price difference!

    "They're still buying their products in large quantities though." Baggs

    Seems that according to recent sales, Ford is losing ground against Honda!

    Well, I am off for three days in my new rented Camry with V6 power (for scape) hope you won't all miss me too much and I will update you if I stall or break down LOL!!!
  • freeberfreeber Posts: 116
    I'll close down this tread single handedly if I have to.

    Bess, in response to your "Duh":

    "When making statements about others, be sure to be looking in a mirror as well.. For example the quote from a Honda fan about Ford owners:
    "Passion can lead one to turn a blind eye to somethings sometimes."

    Duh, I think this applies to both Honda and Ford fanatics..

    Yeah, are you taking lessons from Scape now? Where did I say that applies to ONLY FORD OWNERS. I said it applies to Passion and in fact I was defending Scape apparently being refered to (not directly) as Ignorant. Save your lecture.

    "they have many problems with Honda's and in the exact same article then goes on to overlook those problems and rate the Honda as awsome"

    Yeah, news flash: One or two bad eggs don't spoil the dozen. The Escape has a POOR rating in part of the offset crash tests but it still got a reasonable rating.

    "Varmit on torque curves:
    You are only speculating what the curve might look like based on where you see the peak vs hp.. Your 'assuming' that there's a sharp drop off, and your 'assuming' that its a slow ramp up. Neither of which you've shown.. It doesn't just take advanced VVT technology to produce broad torque curves. Bore, stroke, duration, heads, exhaust all play a part (not to mention 2 extra cylinders). Also, you have not shown the CRV torque curve, again your 'assuming' that it is more broad than the V6.. Your speculations are far from 'proof'."

    I hardly need to defend Varmit who has more knowledge than me with one hand tied behind his back, BUT you insult yourself and him saying he's making assumptions. If Varmit is anything, it thorough. As he clarified in an earlier post, by broader he meant MAX Torque is available over a MUCH broader RPM range than the Escape. Why don't YOU prove that wrong rather than wait for everyone else to do the footwork. 90% of the CRV's Full Torque (yes scape, only 162 Ft/lbs) is available from around 2500 RPM up to 6 or 7000 RPM. I'd bet my V (if it were legal) the Escape doesn't have 90% available over that range of RPM's. They don't have the technology in that engine.

    "Freeber, in your previous post, what exactly was your point (item 4). I am friends with someone who was an engineer at Honda motor company. He was telling me about the quality standards at Honda (which are impressive), however the goal at that time was to make the best part that would last exactly 5 years. (at that time in the early 80's it appeared most American manufactures did not have such standards).. So you are correct, all companies do this."

    My point is: ask your grandparents if the car dealer told them the parts were designed to last 5 years and not last as long as possible if they would have bought a car when they were 25 years old. I clearly stated I was sure all manufacturers did it, so now between the two of us we have stated that 3 times. Thanks again. Again, I NEVER claimed Honda didn't do it too. I was speaking to Americans on the large expecting less and less and getting it. (and then putting up with it) I also stated NOT EVERYTHING is getting worse, so that base was covered too. 90% of the people in this thread don't fit the profile I described because the fact that they are here proves they may actually care about their vehicle.

    "Also, if Americans standards drop every day, then why did the Big3 make such improvements in the early 80's? I suspect it was again thanks to the Japanese showing you can have good quality and be inexpensive. However since that time, the playing field has leveled."

    20 years ago is your reference point? Have you looked at politics lately? Have you turned on you TV to see some of the garbage we accept as "entertainment"? Have you driven a Ford? LATELY? (OK, that one was a joke, but I couldn't help myself...=P) And if the playing field is so level, why is GM buying engines from Honda for the Vue? Why does Honda have TWO Hybrids on the road and Ford just dumped their plans? (where is that 2001, er 2002, er 2003 hybrid Escape anyhow?)

    "America as arrogant.. Doesn't seem that way if you visit France.. "

    "We're not arrogant, the French are." Doesn't sound arrogant at all. My bad.

    NOW THAT Bess, was me OVER THE LINE.
  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    Aren't you all tired yet?
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    Let's make it a little less personal!

    BTW - Why don't YOU prove that wrong rather than wait for everyone else to do the footwork.

    As a general rule in "debate," the person making the claim bears the burden of providing the proof or evidence to support the claim.

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Diploid - Very.


    "You are only speculating what the curve might look like based on where you see the peak vs hp. Your 'assuming' that there's a sharp drop off, and your 'assuming' that its a slow ramp up." - Bess


    Nope. It is not an assumption. I'm glad you questioned that. This may help a few folks learn something new. Take a look at this...


    "In contrast to a torque curve, horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, especially when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising."


    The quote comes from here. It's a link that was frequently passed around a few years ago.


    Okay, based on that, we know that HP will continue to climb until the torque curve drops like a rock. That point is when it reaches peak HP. Since the Escape reaches peak HP at only 1,200 rpms higher than peak torque, we can conclude that torque must be dropping PDQ. If the torque curve was flat after its peak, the Escape would be making a whole lot more HP.


    In contrast, the CR-V's torque peak is relatively low (3,600 rpms). Peak HP is reached at 6,000 rpms. That's 2,400 rpms higher, or twice the difference seen in the Escape. Freeber is wrong about the numbers, but correct in principle. The CR-V's 2.4 produces 90% of peak torque from 2,525 to 5,500 rpms.


    "Also, you have not shown the CRV torque curve, again your 'assuming' that it is more broad than the V6.. Your speculations are far from 'proof'." - Bess


    Nope. That is incorrect. I've published this link about a dozen times. It is the torque and HP curve for the CR-V's 2.4L plotted over a uniform X and Y grid. I've also posted the one that Intmed describes. You can read back in the thread and find it. In either case, you'll actually note that torque drops over a longer stretch than it builds. That's a bit different than most other engines.


    http://decagon.interserver.net/~hondasuv/user/Varmint/HP%20and%20Torque.gif


    I would love to compare this to a 3.0L Escape, but no one has found the Escape's curve! To the best of my knowledge, Ford has not published it.

    Tidester - I believe I did provide a reasonable explanation (proof) for my points when I posted it the first time. It simply wasn't understood by all.

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    I believe I did provide a reasonable explanation ...

    I understand that. My message was for those who may not be fully aware of the basic principles relating to burden of proof.

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • freeberfreeber Posts: 116
    As a general rule in "debate," the person making the claim bears the burden of providing the proof or evidence to support the claim.

    I think its been explained to death, and if we had to dig up proof everytime somebody said "I don't think so" it proves to be laborious for the person in the right. I know te general rules, but I don't see anybody from the Ford point of view ponying up any data to back up their claims.

    Just my thoughts.
  • odie6lodie6l Hershey, PaPosts: 1,078
    If The Vue is putting the Honda engine in next year... does that mean Handa and GM are partners maybe... but then you got the Matrix / Vibe. So does that make Toyota and GM partners. so in turn that would make honda and toyota partners... never mind now I'm getting confused.

    Oh heard a little story that Dodge maybe re-naming the Neon the Daytona again. Don't know if that would be a good thing.

    Odie
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