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Comments
Sure, now that it's a law they do. It wasn't there in the 2002's last time I checked.
The Escape has had it since day one.
Yes, the CR-V has LATCH. And you are incorrect - it IS in the 2002 model.
Of course, neither the CR-V nor the Escape offers it in the center position. Is that where your seat is installed? Because you can't use the outboard anchors to install a seat in the center position unless both the auto manufacturer and the carseat manufacturer allow it. As it happens, both Honda and Britax allow this, so I could do that if I wanted. I know Ford allows it as well, but you'd have to make sure your carseat manufacturer allowed it. Good point about getting the seatbelt tight enough. I know mine is - it's been checked by a professional, and it moves less than 1 inch at the belt path (actually, it doesn't move at all, but 1 inch or less is the standard). Not installing the seat tightly enough is one of the most common mistakes parents make, and it's one reason so many were looking forward to LATCH. I'm disappointed that so few cars have LATCH anchors in the center rear position.
However, that doesn't address the use of the center position for adults, or for children who have outgrown a harnessed seat. It's useless for them. Since it's the safest spot in the car, I prefer to use it, so I'm glad Honda put both a shoulder belt and headrest in that position.
Scenarios, scenarios, scenarios, if the Escape had done better than the CR-V you know damn well we'd be hearing how relevant the tests are. It just so happens there aren't many tests where the Escape does better than the CR-V . So, in this discussion nothing is relevant but real world data.
And, if we're going to do this whole safety thing all over again, let us not forget the dual-pretentioned (lap and shoulder) front belts that are found in the CR-V.
I have a 2001 Escape and it DOES have LATCH, and you CAN place the seat in the center seat.
My wife's car on the other hand is a 2000 Civic EX and it DOES NOT have LATCH, and for a 6'3" 290lbs guy to crawl into the back seat of a 4dr civic is hard enough without having to try and put in the base for the car seat. Once that puppy went in it is NOT moving EVER (or until the child out grows it). You can on the other hand have the LATCH system added to a vehicle that does not have it, but it cost a pretty good amount to do. We looked at it for the civic and it would have cost us $300 to add the LATCH to it. We will probally be getting rid of the Civic in a while anywho for a RX-8 (hey its the wife's car, I got the Escape) LOL
Odie
Yes, low spead impact will cause expensive damage but your safety comes first. I also assume the rear impact will come from a tailgater in most cases. He's at fault, insurance wise, for not providing enough following distance.
http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autowe- ek&cat_code=carnews&content_code=01578632&Search_Type- =STD&Search_ID=1176144&record=2
What I don't understand is why is it going to take over a year to bring it out? Must take a long time to engineer all that plastic chrome they're gonna put on the Escape to make it "up-scale".
Just trying to clarify... yes, of course you can place a carseat in the center, since there's a seatbelt there (even though it's only a lap belt). Or are you saying you can use the LATCH anchors embedded in the seat and bypass the seatbelt entirely? In other words, are there *three* separate sets of LATCH anchors? Not the top tether anchor, which is either on the ceiling or in the cargo bay, but the actual LATCH anchors that are deep within the seat itself.
"You can on the other hand have the LATCH system added to a vehicle that does not have it, but it cost a pretty good amount to do. We looked at it for the civic and it would have cost us $300 to add the LATCH to it."
Are you sure this was for the LATCH anchors within the seat, and not simply the top tether anchors? Because it's my understanding that the only auto makers that will retrofit the lower LATCH anchors are Audi and VW. So if you can get it on a Honda, that's a pretty big development that a lot of carseat afficionados will be interested, and I'd love to hear more about it. So you're talking about the anchors that let you bypass the seatbelt, not the top tether anchors that are used *with* the seatbelt (which shouldn't cost anywhere *near* $300)?
I think you must confusing the entire LATCH system (anchors embedded in the seat, carseats are installed without the seatbelt) with the top tether anchor (used with LATCH anchors or with the seatbelt, anchor in the rear deck, ceiling, or cargo bay). My '99 Accord did not have a tether, but the 2000 models did, as did my '01 CR-V. Neither had LATCH anchors within the seat, but my '02 CR-V does. It's pretty easy to get these two confused. I'd be surprised if your 2000 Civic had LATCH, since it wasn't required by law, wasn't present on the 2000 Accord, and I don't think the details had even been worked out yet. I'm pretty sure you only had the top tether anchors.
"Scenarios, scenarios, scenarios, if the Escape had done better than the CR-V you know damn well we'd be hearing how relevant the tests are. It just so happens there aren't many tests where the Escape does better than the CR-V . So, in this discussion nothing is relevant but real world data."
I agree. You can dance around the test results and create all the imaginary scenarios you want, but data is data.
No. Because it wasn't in the one we looked at in January of 2002 (maybe an option?). I even asked the salesman. They must have added it later in the year (when the law was passed) along with all the other "Johnny Come Lately's".
We don't have kids yet but I am looking forward to the convenience of the LATCH system when we do.
"Because you can't use the outboard anchors to install a seat in the center position unless both the auto manufacturer and the carseat manufacturer allow it."
I think the Escape manual recommends you only strap the seat in the middle when using a tether. Otherwise keep it to the outside seats.
"It just so happens there aren't many tests where the Escape does better than the CR-V ."
It does better in crash avoidance which is much more important don't you think?
"So, in this discussion nothing is relevant but real world data."
Why? Because it proves your point?
There's a big black pot/kettle thing going on here I think.
"My 2000 Civic had LATCH."
It has the steel hooks in the seat too? I find that very hard to believe. Are you sure you don't just have the tethers on the window shelf?
*edit*
I see that crvgirl already asked this. Sorry.
"You can dance around the test results and create all the imaginary scenarios you want, but data is data."
It's only data for one scenario though. Can you tell me how both vehicles will react when they hit a telephone pole head on? No, you can't. Neither the IIHS nor NHTSA data show you that and that's the one crash you see over and over on the news right? For all we know both could be torn straight in half by that pole.
The data is a rough guide, not proof. You believe all of it, I don't. This board would probably be dead if that weren't the case.
I saw video of the Honda Element (very similar to the CR-V) IIHS test a week or two ago and it did as well as the CR-V in that same vacuum test. One thing that struck me as odd was how far it bounced off of the barrier. It must have flown, mostly in air, about 10 - 15 feet back and to it's right. Most other vehicles didn't fly quite as far especially if they didn't score as well due to less stiffness in the frame.
Now in the real world, flying that far off would put you in another lane of moving traffic making you a perfect "T-bone" target for someone else. How often do you think that happens? If their test is so real, it should happen all the time.
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98017.htm#2
They state for the top right picture that "The driver space was maintained reasonably well.". It looks a lot like the Escape's driver space which was said to have not been maintained very well. Obviously this isn't an exact science if the IIHS can't even be consistent with their own test.
varmint,
Would you be afraid to drive a child around in your older CR-V? I know I've asked this before, but you seem to be the only one around with an older model so I have to pick on you.
I read an article where the Highway Patrol in NC stated that 75% of the child seats they see are not installed properly. Getting it right and spending some money on a decent seat are much more important that whether the car has Latch or not.
I have owned both these cars and they each do an admirable job day-to-day. Just fit my daughters dresser, nightstand, and mirror in the Escape. Once had 4 dozen ballons in the CR-V. Neither gave me much trouble. The Escape is more fun to drive, but I had the 1st gen CR-V and the new one looks to be more peppy than my 2000 was.
All 2002 CR-V models feature the new LATCH (for Lower Anchor and Tethers for CHildren) system so parents may use LATCH-compatible seats. This system combines tether anchor points on the ceiling with anchor points located at the seat back/bottom contact point for secure and easy mounting of child safety seats.
"Would you be afraid to drive a child around in your older CR-V?"
Nope, but I typically put kids in the back seats. And if I driving kids all the time, I'd have probably upgraded to the new CR-V. There's no doubt the new model is better than the old one.
As you can see, LATCH was available on some Accords, I don't know why they didn't put it in all.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/childps/CSR2001/BASChtml/B- - ASC2001.html
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/childps/BASCKids2002/chart- .html#1
All depends if you see the accident coming. Not to mention that the handling differences are negligible. Find me an article that says the Escape whips the CR-V in handling and I'll show you one that say it doesn't.
"So, in this discussion nothing is relevant but real world data."
Why? Because it proves your point?
No, because it keeps this discussion alive. If we only went by printed data, there would be no discussion on safety or reliability. But, you say the crash tests are flawed and CR and J.D. Power aren't scientific.
The consumer will rule and tell who wins this round. However, I think both the CRV and the Escape are going to be in trouble when the Equinox arrives from Chevy. With thier ability to produce mass numbers along with the many dealerships Chevrolet has the numbers the Equinox is going to flow out of the show rooms onto the street.
Some say sales #'s don't matter. I disagree. It shows what the consumer wants and is willing to pay$$ for. Along with giving the manufacturer profits.
Just ticked over 27,000 miles on my 2001 Escape XLT 4wd V6. Runs great, not one problem. One small squeak once in a while in the front left winshield area. Enoying it very much and I am confident I made the correct choice.
And you believed the salesman????? I've never talked to one who had a clue what LATCH was, let alone knew whether any of his cars had it. In fact, with two of the last three vehicles we bought, I had to tell the salesman that they *did* have the top tether anchors, and explain what they were and where they are. After looking it up myself in the owner's manual, that is. I would never assume a car wasn't equipped with something simply because the salesman said it wasn't. "It's not there" translates into "I don't know, and I'm can't be bothered to look it up." ;-) Perhaps you had the rare salesman who actually knew about LATCH, but given the information from the Honda media site, it sounds like he simply gave you the wrong answer.
And, as I said before, LATCH is irrelevant to the point I made about the center seating position. There's *still* no shoulder belt there (talk about Johnny-come-lately), therefore that position is *still* useless for adults and children who have outgrown harnessed seats. If you only need 4 seats, and if you don't care whether you can use that safest center spot, then it's not an issue for you. For me, it's a HUGE issue. And I'm still not quite sure why you brought up LATCH as a response to that, since it's a moot point.
"It does better in crash avoidance which is much more important don't you think?"
No. Not at all. Crash avoidance is definitely a good thing, but some crashes simply cannot be avoided by defensive driving on the victim's part. Relying on crash avoidance is kind of like relying on the withdrawal method for birth control. ;-)
But there's really no need for you to get so defensive. No one has said the Escape is an unsafe vehicle. Just that it's not at the same level, safety wise, as the CR-V. Obviously it still passes the government's minimum requirements, and no one should feel afraid to drive it. Some of us simply chose enhanced safety over other factors the Escape offers, such as engine size, towing ability, whatever. We've all got our own priorities.
Well, that *is* interesting. I didn't know they went back so far. I know my 2001 CR-V did not have it, though it had the top anchors. I wish that chart also listed models that only had top anchor tethers.
Thanks for the link!
If you drove around here and saw all of the GM vehicles (like the ultra nasty Aztek) you'd know why I harp on sales so much. Did you know that GM's employee discount is extendable to in-laws too? My mom gets a GM discount because her sister married a GM employee. In turn, I can have her buy a car for me. I make the payments and after six months she can sell it to me (state sales tax free as the sale is within family). I can get employee pricing on any car the big3 make. I was going to buy a Vibe that way. Problem was I wanted it now and there aren't any 5 speed Vibe's sitting on lots in Michigan.
It's crazy to think price doesn't count. Many, many people are swayed by cost even if the vehicle their buying is as ugly as an Aztek. It's also crazy to think that everyone considers every vehicle an option. Most Big3 employees won't even consider anything but an American car, for them or their family. Factor that in with the suppliers who also get a discount that's extendable to family. Plus, most guys that work for suppliers drive vehicles from the big3. It's a big no, no to pull up in a Japanese car, even if it is built in America.
Oh my. This discussion heads for a whole new level. LOL!
Question... what about "import" brands that are owned or controlled by the Big 3, such as Saab, Volvo, etc... are they considered acceptible?
Yes. But we had already decided not to buy the CR-V for other reasons at that point. It just wasn't worth looking into.
I guess I stand corrected.
"If you only need 4 seats, and if you don't care whether you can use that safest center spot, then it's not an issue for you."
Bingo!
I can use the center spot for a car seat without a shoulder strap though. I have no problem with using the tether and lap belt. That setup is probably better than a shoulder/lap belt combo anyway.
"Relying on crash avoidance is kind of like relying on the withdrawal method for birth control. ;-)"
This is no lie. I work with a guy who had a vasectomy after what he and his wife believed to be their last child. They had twins a year or so later.
Moral...
No matter how safe you think you are, something can always give.
"But, you say the crash tests are flawed"
I didn't say they are flawed. You shouldn't assume that you are safer in one than you are in the other because your crash is not going to be the same as the test.
The CR-V probably has weaknesses too, and the Escape probably has more than that one. Those are what would scare me because I don't know about them.
"No one has said the Escape is an unsafe vehicle. Just that it's not at the same level, safety wise, as the CR-V."
Well, I wouldn't say no one has said that.
I'll agree that it's not at the same safety level as the CR-V in a very similar crash. Not all around though.
"Crash avoidance is definitely a good thing, but some crashes simply cannot be avoided by defensive driving on the victim's part."
That's true. Just as not all crashes are exactly like the IIHS's or the NHTSA's. Yet you still put a lot of faith in them, correct? I'm just putting more faith in the better handling of my vehicle to get me out of an accident. Here's where the icvci's statement about differences in priorities starts to show.
"Not to mention that the handling differences are negligible."
The differences in the IIHS crash test results are pretty negligible too. We're talking about a couple of inches here. Just as moving out of the way a couple of inches and slowing down several mph can make a big difference if you do end up crashing and you could attempt to get out of the way. You may not have avoided it, but the impact was less dramatic.
"Find me an article that says the Escape whips the CR-V in handling and I'll show you one that say it doesn't."
The same can be done with the CR-V, and safety ratings.
"The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis have so many imported parts they are actually classified as imports by the EPA."
I've seen that before. Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth were famous for that back in the late 80's and early 90's. The badge on the front of the car doesn't always tell the whole story any more and some people just don't get it.
Yes, I check CR for just about everything. Add their research to mine and make an educated purchase.
Well, nothing beats a vehicle with the parent company's badge on the front. However, many people have really loosened up in that regard. Now that GM is using a Corolla engine in the Vibe (which is basically a Toyota with a Pontiac interior) and they are also using Honda's V6 in next year's Redline VUE, it looks like things will change.
My friend just bought a Mazda6, the first non-blue oval in their family since his brother started working for GM. (His bro is the only guy who's family doesn't have a Ford, they only drive GM.) The biggest complaint around here are from union guys who don't like any vehicle built in a non-union facility. Many of the white collar workers don't give a damn as long as it's within the parent company's family.
My designer friend at DCX had a BMW for awhile, DCX has a seperate parking lot for non-DCX cars. It's about 100 yards further from the entrance.
Funny fact. My 2003 Protege5 is made in Hiroshima and yet, many around here figure it's just a Ford. My 2000 Civic was made in America but I was driving a "Japanese" car. The Crown Vic and Grand Marquis have so many imported parts they are actually classified as imports by the EPA
Yes, you can use the center spot for a carseat without a shoulder strap. In fact, that's all lap belts are really good for - installing a harnessed carseat. Though technically, installing a seat with a shoulder/lap combo is slightly safer than with a lap belt alone. Using the tether helps quite a bit, luckily.
However, you seem to be saying that you couldn't use a tether with a shoulder belt, which is untrue. I'm sure the Escape has three rear tether anchors, just like the CR-V does, that can be used when the carseat is installed with the seatbelt. Their use is optional but highly recommended. If you use the LATCH anchors, as opposed to the seatbelt, you *must* use the rear tether anchors.
That's true. Just as not all crashes are exactly like the IIHS's or the NHTSA's. Yet you still put a lot of faith in them, correct? I'm just putting more faith in the better handling of my vehicle to get me out of an accident.
I can only put my faith in real-world data, not in conjecture about what *might* happen in a mythical crash. And right now, the most objective real-world data we have is from those crash tests. So yes, I'm putting a lot of faith in them. You cannot rely on better handling to get you out of every crash. Otherwise, sports cars would be safer to drive and cheaper to insure than minivans. Of course, everyone thinks they are better-than-average drivers. Some of us must be wrong. ;-)
That's not what I meant. I should have been clearer and I apologize for the confusion.
I'm saying that the shoulder strap in the center doesn't add a whole lot value to the whole car seat thing when I can just use the lap belt and tether to do the same thing. Since I don't have adults in the rear middle seat too often, the lack of a shoulder belt isn't that important to me. I now know for sure that it is important to some people though.
"I can only put my faith in real-world data, not in conjecture about what *might* happen in a mythical crash."
This is exactly what I'm trying to say! The other crashes I'm talking about aren't mythical. They are real! The IIHS is waaaay closer to mythical than all the others because it is performed under controlled conditions. Do you control your crashes?
"You cannot rely on better handling to get you out of every crash."
You cannot rely on the results of one controlled crash to tell you how the vehicle's structure will react in the real world either.
"Otherwise, sports cars would be safer to drive and cheaper to insure than minivans."
That's a different story. Sports cars are more expensive to insure almost solely because they can go really really fast and people often buy them with the intent to do so. Ever hear the term "Speed Kills"? If everyone drove them like every day commuters (read SUV's and minivans) they would be much less expensive to insure.
Besides, if better handling were the reason vehicle A costs more to insure than vehicle B the Escape would always cost more to insure than the CR-V. Especially because it can cost more to buy. We know that's not always the case though.
icvci,
Did you see this link on the page you linked above?
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4819
That's about the 15th recall for the X5. The 2001 Escape looks like a Honda next to that beast.
Runge says 53 percent of the increase was from SUV and pickup rollovers.
He's right, there has to be some emphasis on personal responsibility. I do not think that's all of the problem. Some vehicles *are* inherently less safe than others. But it isn't being addressed as strongly as it should be. Look at the Explorer/Firestone problem. Even if you believe that either the Explorer or Firestone were poorly designed, or both, the fact is that 80% of the people killed in those crashes were not wearing seatbelts (according to http://www.westbuslaw.com/jennings/bleg6e/updates/updates_ch11.ht- ml ). Who knows how many lives would have been saved if they had bothered to buckle themselves and their children.
This is exactly what I'm trying to say! The other crashes I'm talking about aren't mythical. They are real! The IIHS is waaaay closer to mythical than all the others because it is performed under controlled conditions. Do you control your crashes?
Obviously the best way to get real-world data would be to turn a bunch of idiots loose and see what kind of crashes they had and how seriously they were injured. Perhaps we could enlist the use of death-row inmates on a closed track. ;-) Until there is enough data on "real" crashes, all we can do is trust the data that comes from testing. In five years, if we find out that 10% of the people who wrecked their CR-Vs died, and only 5% of the people who wrecked their Escapes died, you will have some real data that I will pay attention to. But in the meantime, I'm sorry, your speculation on how a particular car *might* perform in a particular crash is no less "mythical" than a controlled crash.
"You cannot rely on better handling to get you out of every crash."
You cannot rely on the results of one controlled crash to tell you how the vehicle's structure will react in the real world either.
I don't see why not. True, they do not replicate every possible kind of crash. But between the the two (IIHS and NHTSA), they get some pretty common serious ones. Frontal, side, offset... that's a good start IMHO. Some defects are only found in real-life situations (such as the Nissan Altima airbag problem), but that doesn't mean controlled testing is useless.
And get this, when I look up Edmunds TMV it's selling for $635 OVER MSRP!!!!! What a bunch of losers!
I figured that article lent itself to your point a bit. There is so much more to a crash than a crash test can prove. On the other hand, I really do believe they present a fair and accurate representation for most accidents. Seriously, they based it on something, those things are the most common accidents. (front, side, and rear)
Personally, I can't imagine driving without a seatbelt on. Then again, people still smoke and that hasn't been cool since I was born.
I don't recall saying that it's useless, but if I did I take it back. I've said many times before that these crash tests are good guides. But that's it. Sometimes you have to look at the big picture and make your own decisions instead of what all these numbers tell you.
I'm sure that most CR-V owners bought their vehicles because it fit their needs better than anything else out there. That's great. The people who use those numbers, and only those numbers, to buy something just because it was the "best" are really doing themselves a disservice though.
Icvci said he made an informed decision based on those numbers. Well, so did I and my wife (most of the numbers anyway). We used to drive a ZX2 and a Civic (still have, unfortunately) for God's sake! The Escape could have rated "Super Ultra Poor" in the IIHS test and it wouldn't have mattered to us because it would still be safer than those two vehicles combined. Therefore we bought what we (mostly she) liked the most from our list of choices which were based on many things including all these fancy numbers.
I read several articles claiming that the majority of the drivers made sudden movements with the steering wheel as well as slammed on the brakes. Both of those actions are big, big no no's when a tire blows out. No wonder they rolled over.
I'd be kicking myself daily.
Although when asked, the owners claim to love them and have no problems with them.
Ahhh to be rich.
Ahhh to be rich.
"Well, when it's in the shop, Lovey gets to drive a new car for a week or so, and that always makes her soooo happy." ;-)
Interesting posts about LATCH; there are some links in Child Seats That Fit that may interest some of y'all.
Steve, Host
It's funny, on one hand the Honda fanatics will say the CRV has similar purchase price and a higher resale value for equally equipped CRV's and Escapes. (which KBB disputes).
On the other hand, they claim that Escape has better sales because of the sales incentives which drive the price lower than the CRV. (which seeing as how both vehicles are equal in every other way, I agree that price and service start playing more of a role in sales. The Escape is a better value).
Which is it? Is the Escape less expensive than the CRV or more?
Are incentives a factor in Escape sales? I assume they are. Mainly because the Escape is equal or better than the competition in most other ways, so an incentive can help tip the scale.
If the CRV was as far ahead of the Escape in quality, options, resale, service, and performance, as you claim, then folks would gladly plop down an extra few dollars a month to get the CRV.
No the 2000 civic does NOT have the LATCH on the seats, it does have the top tethers on the rear deck, but again, we won't use those till at least a upright booster seat. I would have to have the mounts for the LATCH system added aftermarket to my wifes car.
I myself see the after effects of kids not properly restrained, I work in a Pediatric Intensive Care Unit.
just look in here http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html
Odie
I looked at the manual and says this about that configuration:
"The anchors on both sides of the
center of the rear seat are provided
primarily for child seats at the
outboard seats, and are further
apart than the pairs of lower
anchors for child seat installation at
other seats. A child seat with rigid
LATCH attachments cannot be
installed at the center rear seat. A
child seat with LATCH attachments on belt webbing can be used at the
center rear seat unless a child seat at an outboard rear seat is attached
to one of these lower anchors. Install a child seat onto the lower anchors
at the center rear seat ONLY IF the child restraint manufacturer
recommends that the child seat can be installed to anchors that are
spaced up to 500 mm (19 in) apart."
I would have never thought to do that but I guess you can.
Odie, I'm still not clear on whether the Escape actually has lower LATCH anchors in the center position. If it does, you can ignore the rest of this. :-) (ETA... baggs32 just answered that part)
But if not, you CANNOT use the LATCH as described unless both the vehicle's and the carseat's manufacturers specifically say it is okay. I realize, given Odie's experience with the results of improper carseat use, that he probably read his carseat manual and already know this fact. But I wanted to make this clear for others reading this board who haven't already looked into it. You cannot assume it is safe to use the outboard anchors to install a seat in the center without that approval. I know Ford and Honda allow it, and some carseat manufacturers (such as Britax) allow it, as long as the anchors are within a particular distance. Most vehicles and seats have not been tested this way, and unless you want your child to be the crash test dummy (or worse, put your child in a situation that has been tested and failed), you must follow the manufacturer's directions. And both cars and carseats say do NOT use the outside LATCH anchors to install a seat in the center unless you get official word that it has been approved by both car and carseat maker.
Value is in the eye of the beholder. I've heard from people who refused to buy a CR-V (or other car that sells at MSRP or close to it) *solely* because they couldn't knock $1000 off the MSRP. Seriously. Some people think they're only getting a deal if they can pay X less than MSRP, without considering that some cars are priced above market value. Time will obviously tell which of these vehicles turned out to be a better value. Who knows; they may turn out to be pretty equal.
And for some consumers, it doesn't matter. Some people are rabid (well, perhaps we should say "dedicated") Honda or Ford loyalists. Or boycotters. ;-) Others have very specific needs that trump other factors. If you *need* the extra towing capacity, or whatever, then you won't care if the CR-V is better in other areas, because it doesn't meet your predominant need. And since I was very interested in safety, the lack of a shoulder belt in the center rear (yes, that again) meant I wasn't interested in the Escape because it didn't meet *my* predominant need.
A similarly equipped Escape costs more unless you get an employee/supplier discount. The CR-V retains more of it's value. That retention is based upon better quality (perceived or actual) and the fact that Ford does offer incentives on the Escape (even if they had previously only offered employee discounts those still have to be figured into resale value).
Mainly because the Escape is equal or better than the competition in most other ways, so an incentive can help tip the scale.
So, if the vehicle is just as good as the next guys you have to offer incentives? Then why doesn't Honda need them?
Sales numbers from last year -
CRV sales: 146,266
Ford Escape: 145,471
Sales numbers thus far this year -
Ford Escape: 36,058
CR-V: 33,007
KBB will tell you that their numbers are only a guide. And that just because they say that's what it's worth doesn't mean that's what the market currently allows.
Edmunds however has a system called TMV (True Market Value) where buyers are polled on what they paid so you can see what the market is allowing. So buyers and sellers can get a realistic idea of what to expect.
Below are TMV prices for each-
2001 Ford Escape
4 Dr XLT 4WD Wagon
Dealer Trade-In
$12,907
Private Party
$14,580
Dealer Retail
$16,166
2001 Honda CR-V
4 Dr EX AWD Wagon
Dealer Trade-In
$14,782
Private Party
$16,389
Dealer Retail
$17,925
Consider that the 2001 CR-V is now replaced by a better 2002 CR-V and the CR-V's advantage looks even bigger. Then factor in the Escape's higher purchase price and the advantage is even greater.
Get it?
http://hondacars.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=200101030010- 03
My girlfriend has had a CRV for 5 years now and it has been flawless. We have driven the car across country on a 9000 mile trip hiking and mountain biking and it was very comfortable.
And we all know how easy it is to sell a Honda and the great resale value.
Now in reference to the prior posts regarding the total number of sales. As you all know Ford has many more dealerships than Honda. So the fact that the CRV has approximately the same number of units sold is a disgrace to Ford.
Styling is certainly subjective but to my eye that Escape is a non descript Jeep Grand Cher. derivative, bland, boring and dull.
The Honda while not a work of art like the new Nissan Murano is quite distinctive. It certainly is not a me-too look alike sport utility.
I would like to see the company survive who is doing the most to delight the consumer and IMO Honda is the clear winner here. And Honda is very strong financially.
]
Hasnt the Escape had a history of recall after recall?
This is the point I frequently make in the sales debate.
As for recalls, the X5, and the Escape... I don't think they are a big issue. The ones that happened to the Escape were pretty obviously the result of forcing the vehicle to market faster than was prudent. However, Ford was very proactive in getting the problems identified and fixed. Kudos to Ford.
Also, a recall is mechanically no different than any other failure. The only difference is whether or not the NHTSA considers the result to be safety-related. If a valve fails somewhere in the braking system, the problem is classified as a recall. If the same sort of valve fails in the HVAC system, the problem is considered a routine fix.
Hence we cannot make judgements about quality based on recall information.
Production numbers are just about equal though. Because of this, each Ford dealer will have fewer Escapes to sell.
However, that all may change this year as the Escape has outsold the CR-V by more than 3000 units in the first three months. I don't know where icvci got his numbers for last year because when I added up all the months the difference was something like 34 units in favor of the CR-V. Add the Tribute to the total and there's no contest. Yes the Tribute does take away from Escape sales. It's a direct competitor just like the CR-V.
Last year was the first time (I think) the CR-V outsold the Escape. This can most likely be attributed to the fact that it was a brand new model and the Escape was about 1.5 years old at the time. People trading up from older CR-V's didn't hurt either.
"First let us forget that Fords Bonds have been downgraded to juck status. Well there is always the taxpayer to plunder to bail Ford out."
The bonds never did reach junk status, but did come close. As a matter of fact they've just been upgraded.
"And the leadership of Ford is now a disaster."
Actually it's coming together quite well now that they've let several people go and hired new. They just posted a first quarter profit of nearly $900,000,000. Wait till they really get warmed up! Recalls and costs are down. Quality and profits are up.
You can read about it here:
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0304/18/a01-139936.htm
"As for recalls, the X5, and the Escape... I don't think they are a big issue."
I've been known to state that recalls aren't a big issue too. They really aren't "problems" because they do get fixed for free no matter how old the vehicle is. The problem I'd have with being an X5 owner is having to take it back to the dealer over and over again. I can deal with a few, maybe even up to 10 on an average vehicle. That goes down to about 5 when it costs as much as a small house.
icvci,
About this TMV thing. Just like KBB, it too is regional and depends on the vehicle options.
When I customized the appraisal of the same two vehicles you have listed above I came up with different numbers. You have to do this because the base Escape XLT 4WD does not have all the same standard features as the CR-V EX. Things have to be added in order to make them equal.
You have a valid argument because I'm sure used CR-V's sell for a little more than used Escape's on average. It's just not the same big difference you would see between the Civic and the Focus.
varmint,
I have a question about this. As I was driving to work today in our Civic I realized that the lap portion of the front seat belt is visibly attached directly to the frame. I would imagine the CR-V, as well as 99% of all vehicles, is the same way.
How can something that doesn't move at all to begin with get pretensioned? I understand how the pretension system in the shoulder belts work (both Escape and CR-V), but the belt pretensioner has me confused.
Is the lap belt in the CR-V on a spool too? How do you get it tight across your lap if it is?
Here's some more info on pretensioners for those who are interested:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/seatbelt4.htm
My concern with Bill Ford is that he impresses me more as an environmentalist than a car guy. I do not share the confidence in having descendants running a car company rather than the cream rising to the top. And the articles that I have read about him are somewhat scary regarding his values concerning business. He may be more suited to PETA or the Peace Corps.
This is only relavent in reference to Ford as a viable ongoing concern in the future to me. And I would not consider a Ford for a couple of reasons.
1. Poor Management
2. Weak Financials
3. Scary Pension Obligations
4. Boring Product, where is your PT Cruiser, the TBird is already slated for retirement
5. Poor quality scores form Consumer Reports, and JD Powers
6. Poor resale values
ETC............................
How could anyone consider this Escape over the CRV is beyond me. Unless they must have a cylinder engine?????
Yes there are consumers who have not done their homework. Thankgoodness for a service like Edmunds.