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Toyota Tacoma vs. Ford Ranger, Part XII

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Comments

  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    New H2 is a joke, an overpriced piece of machinery with overbuilt parts. Yes, it has a big and powerful engine. It's a good way to impress the neighbours. But GM has gone away from the original H that is a good offroader, and made ...well, a grocery getter/mallrunner for rich yuppies who have nothing to do with their money.
    Also, even the original Hummer was not that good for certain tasks: too wide and no flex whatsoever, kinda like some of those Liberties on tbunders' site.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    regarding....TOWHOOKS! And how they are an option on all Jeeps except hardcore offroad models (Overland and Rubicon).
    See msg #420 in Jeep Liberty Troubles forum.
  • The H2 is purely a grocery getter/mall runner, and all this coming from a compact truck fan.

    It is getting really deep in here.

    I am amazed at how many of you all think off-roading is the end all, be all, duty any vehicle is blessed to perform.

    Of course, maybe steelman needs it, according to his messages. However, who here, like me, doesn't give a rats (butt) about off-roading?
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    How else would you categorize H2?
    Fine..lets say it's not about offroading. What practical applications does H2 have? Yes...it can seat how many..8 people? It sits high, it gets 13mpg, it's heavy......Chevy Suburban with a 50K price tag.
    So it's primary duty is what now? Haul people? I wonder how many people you'll see loading H2 with rocks and lumber, etc. Can you give a practical reason (aside from keeping up with Joneses or because I can) to buy H2?
  • eagle63eagle63 Posts: 599
    you're right, of course, but remember that Tbunder is the one who keeps making claims that his Liberty is the best off-roader on the planet.
    Now personally, I'm not much of an off-roader either. If a vehicle I'm looking to purchase happens to be good in the dirt, then so much the better. -but it's not a quality I generally shop for. I think the Liberty was a good move by Jeep, and for a "mainstream" SUV, it, like the Xterra, is probably a very competant off-roader.
    The Hummer argument is interesting because IMO, there's only 1 reason people buy a Hummer, whether it's the original hummer or the new H2: Image. Nobody spends that kind of money to beat the hell out of a vehicle off-roading. So really, I'm glad that GM introduced the H2 as I'd rather have people buying that instead of the original Hummer since it's smaller and takes up less room on the highway, and is probably easier to drive. (less likely these people will get in accidents)
  • It is pretty much a no brainer.

    Hummer (H1)
    $98,681 - $116,560

    Hummer (H2)
    $48,800 - $51,375

    Eagle nailed it, it is all about image. But calling it a mall-runner/grocery getter is just plain off. However, don't you have to take your Tacoma to the grocery store once in a while, too?

    The exception here is that if you can afford a $50k truck for whatever reason, you probably are not the one doing the grocery shopping.

    "I wonder how many people you'll see loading H2 with rocks and lumber, etc"

    I wonder how of many trucks with TRD stickers ever get "custom pinstriping" or even a bit of rock stuck in their tread.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    Alright, you have a good point, there are also exceptions. But I'm still convinced that higher percentage of Tacomas are out there getting pinstriped and beat up by rocks than there are H2s.
    Price is not a practical reason to buy H2, but a mere advantage to buying H2 over H1.
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    next May, when the Hummer club is in town. We happened to stay at the same hotel where these guys stayed. They went out EVERY day and literally drove their Hummers into the ground. Beat the absolute crap out of them! So much so that they had their own mechanics that wrenched on Hummers well into the night. The owners all had extra vehicles to go out to dinner in, ranging from tow vehicles (Ford F350s) to Caddies, Ferraris and Harleys. Very few of the Hummers were actually driven to Moab. There were two 18-wheel flatbeds parked next to the hotel that each carried three Hummers away when they all left, while several others were trailered away. The few that left under their own power towed trailers with spare wheels/tires and parts. Obviously, these guys had more money than they could possibly ever spend, but not all Hummers are used by soccer moms to go to the store. I wonder if the H2s will be allowed into this elite club?

    Oh, I forgot. We took our Expedition (didn't own the Ranger then) and actually took it off-road a few times (we were there mainly for mtn biking). Suffice it to say that an Expy is not a very good off-roader, but we had fun anyway.
  • Remind me never to buy a hummer no matter how many millions I have.

    I know lots of guys that run tacomas in the ground a moab, and they have never had to stay up all night fixing something. Is there a link to this Hummer club with pics of them at moab? I gotta feeling it was something like a great white shark in a bathtub. Some think that money will accomplish anything. I wonder if they drove or if their chaufers did?

    Those things are tanks, I will concede that. But there is one type of offroading that they SHOULD not be allowed to partake in and that is rock crawling. No flex, and the length of a suburban. Again I would like to see pics of the Hummers in moab.
  • rickc5rickc5 Posts: 378
    The only pics I have were taken at the hotel, and we don't have a scanner. So, I can't post them.

    Most of the wrenching seemed to be done to the front suspensions, and of course, the owners did NOT get their hands dirty. They actually had a "mechanic's trailer" with attached tent, where three mechanics in matching blue overalls did all the work. They could fit two Hummers under the tent at one time.

    I do believe the owners actually drove, but boy, did they ever trash their $100K machines (lack of off-road experience?). The majority of the visible damage was to the rear bumpers and the lower edges between the wheels (indeed, too long). Some of these trucks were new when they started. They weren't new when the week was over. Hey, its only money.

    Even with all that, I overheard some owners wishing that the trails were tougher and more of a challenge. Imagine that!

    We also saw a large group of Toyotas (25+)gathering for a run. No Tacomas. All early F40 LCs, and short wheel base early PUs with solid front axles.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    Sure.......just roll the truck down the hill :)
    Personal mechanics......extensive body damage....doesn't sound like they knew what they were doing.
    I've seen people fix Tacomas on the runs: one of TTORA guys went up Tellico trails in 4x4, and came down in 1 wheel drive. Busted up one front axle and S-ed his rear springs (so had to take driveshaft off). But not to the extent of personal mechanics..it's all done with our own blood and sweat. There's no other way about it.
  • scorp- i bet that guy wished he had a dana axle up there eh?

    about what stang posted- i had read that post before. the guy is not accurate. i have 8.5 inches of clearance at both ends under the axles. and the front has a huge skidplate hanging beneath the axle. this guy obviously has some beef with the jeep people. ive posted the numbers here before. ground clearance for liberty is like 10.5 claimed. i don't know where they measure that, probably where toyota measures. in stock form, the lib isn't a good off-roader simply cuz it's tires are street tires/dry dirt tires. and to correct scorpio, towhooks are part of the off-road package on liberty. TWO OF THEM.
    and if nissan started putting 33" tires on their xterra's, ill agree that there is 12" under that front axle. but they don't, and there isn't. ive driven them and got down on my hands and knees and studied the under-carriage. there isn't even a t/c skidplate on them.
    i never said the liberty was the greatest off-roader. i was/am just defending it from naive "one brand" only toyota guys. you have to have an open mind to enjoy life. i would hate to think that i only loved one particular vehicle and thought the rest sucked. give kudos where they are due. the liberty is a state of the art vehicle built in a state of the art facility. it is pretty potent off-road with some decent tires and runs like a scalded dog, while bringing in 21 mpg. sure, it will get groceries and keep them from rolling around, but it will also take them to your tent with a real t/c that is lever operated, not electronically. dog it all you want, the fact is that it will go anywhere a tacoma or any other 4x4 will. and to those who say it isn't a good off-roader, you're just in denial.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    Actually, he has D44.

    About towhooks: Your arguement was that Ford puts them -->standard<-- on Ranger, I'm just kicking it back to you. Jeep doesn't put them standard, Tacoma doesn't have enough standard, and if I want more towhooks, I can just go to the nearest 4WheelParts store and get extra. In fact, I had 4 until I put a reciever hitch in the rear.

    Lets see.."I think of Liberty as mini-Rubicon"?
    There's plenty of good offroader vehicles out there, nobody is arguying it. Tacoma is simply one of the best off the dealers lot. Stock jeep (regular edition) is just not that great, unless you get one with offroad packages. Stock Liberty, well, you said it yourself. Stock by stock, Liberty can not hang in with a Taco, ESPECIALLY if it's a regcab Taco.
    It may be a potent offroader when it's been modified, but since you don't believe in lifts, etc. then you'll never know.
    And don't give the state of the art speech: between a bad fuel pump and faulty control modules (Take a look in JL Problems forum, I did.....sure did not look pretty when people post messages about all of their electronics going out at once), it does not sound like state of the art to me.
  • by the Tacoma guys than Toyota axles, in all honesty. And I think the guy that broke his at Tellico was one of them. Hehe, theres the foot in the mouth syndrome coming back. I love it.

    I am still waiting for one of the pencil thin 8" axles with a locker to snap locked and loaded, but it hasn't happened. Even with guys popping the clutch - an occurrence that played havock on one other truck with traction control in the rear pumpkin.

    I would really like to know more about the quality of Jeeps, tbunder. I have heard horror stories, but most of em from the Taco board. You have already had a fuel pump go out, and you are the only person I really have any contact with that owns a Jeeper. Keep us posted.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    That was Tacozilla, btw, that busted up his rig. They came down from trails at like midnight when we were going to call Rangers station. CBs and cellphones don't work at Tellico (cellphones work in one place only, on the very top).
  • Isn't that convenient.
  • here's what scorpio wrote:

    Lets see.."I think of Liberty as mini-Rubicon"?
    There's plenty of good offroader vehicles out there, nobody is arguying it. Tacoma is simply one of the best off the dealers lot. Stock jeep (regular edition) is just not that great, unless you get one with offroad packages. Stock Liberty, well, you said it yourself. Stock by stock, Liberty can not hang in with a Taco, ESPECIALLY if it's a regcab Taco.
    It may be a potent offroader when it's been modified, but since you don't believe in lifts, etc. then you'll never know.
    And don't give the state of the art speech: between a bad fuel pump and faulty control modules (Take a look in JL Problems forum, I did.....sure did not look pretty when people post messages about all of their electronics going out at once), it does not sound like state of the art to me.

    yes, i do think of my liberty as a mini rubicon.
    i never conceded liberty to RC tacoma. in fact, i laughed at it. if you are calling one bad fuel pump problematic, (as ive told you, the jeep rep told my jeep dealer that i am the only bad fuel pump in any liberty, only one replaced under warranty. the fuel pump came from the factory cuz no parts counter had it) then your standards are too high. and if i remember correctly, only like two or three guys posted this electronics problem. state of the art meaning their production facility in ohio and its standards or production. punch it up on a search engine, then read it. it's like a lexus or acura faciltiy sounds like. with line shutdown if panels aren't within certain millimeters. etc. tacoma is "one of the best" factory off-roaders out there. yes. but there are also a lot more than just tacoma. ranger fx4, ZR2, etc. but none of these can hang with a shorter wheelbased vehicle off-road. it's just a simply fact of life. no, i don't like body lifts. suspension lifts i can tolerate, but would never do it unless i could retain stock look (wheels, rake, etc). but i do believe in altering tires. so that's what i did. put on some BFG KO tires on my jeep and it totally changed the look. sure, i miss my truck, but i plan on waiting a year or two to buy the new ranger, dakota, colorado, toyota ??. then ill have two cool 4x4's in the garage. but i would bet that whatever truck i buy, the lib will walk all over on the trails. it's that good. you'll never believe that though.
    sure that guy had dana axles, just makes too much sense. i wonder why he did swap to danas if he even did. toyota ones are simply too thin and weak. its a known fact. why do so many tacoma owners do the full front axle dana swap? hmmm....

    sad- so far the only thing i can say is i love my jeep. it is by far more solid than anything ive ever driven, faster than anything ive ever owned (meaning quicker, yes, even quicker than the SOHC 4.0 which is no slouch). and i'ts 4lo is wickedly slow. i still think you need to trade your 2x in for a lib 4x4. save some money at the same time and have 4-four wheel drive.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    Why laugh at Taco RC? It's a Tacoma too....and it can run circles around Taco Xtracabs all day long. Sure, it's got no V6, but the 2.7L I4 is plenty for it. RC guys stand by their trucks. One of your main points was that Lib has a short wheelbase and can do a 0-point turn...well, here's a Tacoma with one. You laugh and dismiss it...and you shouldn't.

    Dana axles: He has front Dana axle on the front, and stock Toyota axle in the rear. As for "why do so many tacoma owners do the full front axle dana swap?": because they are hardcode offroaders and have IFS on the front, thats why.
  • oac3oac3 Posts: 373
    tbunder:

    I read your piece here everytime, and you make many good points and many bad points. This one here is a bad one:

    "...state of the art meaning their production facility in ohio and its standards or production. punch it up on a search engine, then read it. it's like a lexus or acura faciltiy sounds like..."

    How you could put a Jeep Liberty production line in the same sentence as that of a Lexus or an Acura production facility is mind-boggling ! Maybe not to you, but to everyone else....

    How many awards has the Jeep Production facility in Ohio won ? Any Platinum awards yet ? anything to be proud of ??? And, FYI, no Lexus or Acura facility produces a car/truck/SUV that had a fuel pump die within days of purchase.... Never.

    Reminds me of Sen Lloyd Bentsen's response to Dan Quayle at the VP debate in 1988: "I know Jack Kennedy, Mr Quayle, you are no Jack Kennedy". Mr tbunder1: It may be hard for you to accept, but Jeeps are no Lexuses or Acuras. And Ohio facility ain't Tsutsumi, Tahara, Araco, or even Lake Erie, Canada.

    Oh, BTW, I do own a Lex and a Toy, just keeping it real ! :)
  • eagle63eagle63 Posts: 599
    I'd like to hear some of Tbunder's "many good points."
  • I've finally had it with my ranger. I open the door the other morning and my key becomes stuck in the lock. Finally wiggle it out and the door makes a nice extra clunk when I shut it. Now the manual window doesnt roll down properly. Back to the dealer again. While this is getting fixed I'm getting my front suspension checked, getting a nice loud groan and shudder when I go over big bumps. So that's 33,500 miles...so far Ive had to go back for a tranny leak, wiper malfunction, new PCM, new ignition coils, sensor replacement, rear window seal replacement, passenger door weatherstripping replacement, new belt tensioner...and I think that's it. Oh, only the first two items were fixed on the first try. Every single other one took at least two trips.
    My warrantee expires in december, can't imagine the fun that will be in store for me after that's gone. This gets paid off in december 2003, then its immediately being sold and im trying my luck with a tacoma.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    If you pay it off and sell it sooner (like in the fall), you'll catch old 2nd generation Tacomas being sold off at dealers and new 3rd gen Tacomas (redesigned with bigger engines) coming into the lots. In December, I think you'll be stuck with 2004 Tacos only.
    As for my Taco: bought it 10 month ago, 20K miles, no problemos.
  • Yeah I was thinking of that, I was also considering a used tacoma, one or two years old, to eat some of the initial cost. Any opinions on that 4cyl 2.7? Ive been seeing those with 4wd for very reasonable prices, and the HP and torque seem comparable to my 3L 6.
  • sc0rpi0sc0rpi0 Posts: 897
    Guys with reg cab 2.7L 4x4s swear by their trucks.
    You have to get a manual one, though...I4 is not that fast with automatic, and you probably want to get an RC, it's 500 lbs lighter than Xtracab.
    But 2.7 is a bulletprof engine, can't go wrong with it.
  • Thats pretty much what I was looking for, I want a manual just for the sake of durability, and a regular cab for cost reasona and bed length. Ive found I can stick just about anything I need to behind the seat in a regular cab.
  • eagle63eagle63 Posts: 599
    good luck finding a good deal on a used tacoma. I've looked quite a bit and they hold their value so damn well that you don't save much at all by buying used - unless you get a really old one.
  • I was thinking the exact same thing about my truck this weekend, tbunder. I was driving a little too fast down some paved farm roads (called hiways in MS) with 2ft woops, and potholes everywhere - not the first squeak or rattle. Then in downtown, brick streets where I was also driving too fast, and the thing felt more solid than a tank. Jus MO.
  • exaggerating a little bit? you might as well moto-cross it if it can take 2 ft. whoops daily.

    and what's with the "2nd gen. tacoma" im hearing about? is something in the works or is it just hearsay?
This discussion has been closed.