Honda Element

a_l_hubcaps

diploid-

Please, don't tell me the Scion is coming from the factory with those giant rims and racing stickers slapped all over it. If so, that will be the first car that qualifies for beaterz.com right off the showroom floor. Ugh!

-Andrew L

diploid

Oooh you'd have to go to wieck.com to see more pics. I must warn you, it's painful to look at.

BTW- Have you watched 13th Child: Legend of the Jersey Devil yet?

inmyelement

I guess we'll find out next month. Then we will all be able to get our hands on it and drive it! I go the back way on my commute so I dont have to deal with the slalom, 1/4 mile and I gave up drag racing! Well, maybe not in my X5 4.4i ! Do all these stats and numbers work in the real world? Its a Honda....practical

Anakin

The photo of the Scion is one of the SEMA show concepts, which explains the racing stripes and wheels.

varmint

If I owned a vehicle like that, I would bury it in decals, too.

dmetzger

Element at Seattle auto show. It states in the program that it is. Will find out tomorrow. You can call and ask to be sure.

Anakin

I was just cruising the Seattle Auto Show website and didn't see a mention of the Element.

Maybe I missed it. Anyway, it will be good to see it in person. Thanks.

dmetzger

Under 'Show at a Glance' 'Sport Utilities', in there Web Site.

Anakin

Well that explains it.

I went to the website and hit "models" without reading the at a glance page. They only have the Sorento and Rav4 listed under Small SUVs :P

diploid

How could anyone place the Sorento in the small SUV department?

In real life (as opposed to fake life?), it's bigger than it appears. Saw them sitting at the dealer's lots, as I have the luxury of living near a Chevy/Hyundai/Jeep/Mitsubishi dealer and a Kia/Isuzu dealer.

chris777

did anyone else notice the bbx with the go kart in the back lol

I wonder if element could pull that one off

isellhondas

I did my shift yesterday at the Seattle Car Show and the Element is, indeed, present.

Unfortunatly, they put it up on the turnstyle and I got to listen to people complain they couldn't sit in it.

I heard mostly positive comments. Surprisingly most of the interest came from people in their 60's and older?

Go figure...

Anakin

I was hoping they wouldn't do that.

Putting it up on a turnstyle isn't any better than lookin at pitchers on the internet. I want to SIT in the thing.

Feh.

tpat3

It was just old folks looking at it at the Boston show, too. Not sure 20-somethings go to cars shows much anyway.

isellhondas

Ask the dumbest questions!

A GREAT BIG thing for them...a "full size" spare!

Of course they remember the days of inner tubes and endless flat tires, I guess.

krunky

Young people tend to look at the cars they can't afford, rather than the vehicles they will probably end up driving.

I'm a GenY driver, and just put a deposit down on an Element, but I have to admit that all my friends think I'm crazy.

stever

Hey, I'm not quite 50 yet! I want my full-size spare. I've had 4 flats since '99 including one on gravel 50 miles from the next service with a load in the van. You need to get off the I-5 more, Isell ;-)

Steve, Host

varmint

At 31, I'm a big fan of the full-size tire. I've had 4 or 5 flats in the past few years. Most have been the result of debris on the roads (nails, scrap metal, etc.), but the tires are also at risk when driving off-road and towing.

It sometimes amazes me that vehicles like the Escape, Forester, and others are designed for (limited) use off-road and towing, but, once a tire is punctured, they're on the bench. The Pilot is another (though you can fit a full-size spare in place of the donut).

ateixeira

Nope - all Foresters ever made have full size tires.

My wife's Legacy had a donut, but when I bought alloy rims I kept a steelie and mounted a full size tire on that, too. It fits in the well. On a GT it's supposed to fit, too, but not on the Outback because the tire is much bigger.

Maybe you were thinking about the Outback. Interestingly, in Australia they come with slightly smaller 215 tires, instead of 225s, and the Aussies get full size spares, too.

That Scion is horribly ugly. The Element is a super-model next to it. Much bigger and more useful, too. Toyota had better price those very low or it'll be the next $2000 rebate special. The Echo has failed, why do they think variations on that car will sell well?

I kind of like the Sorento, though. It's a true mid-sizer. Sorento has the torque to tow 3500 lbs, side-curtain air bags, and a full frame with a low range. That it looks just like the RX300 (the best selling Lexus) won't hurt it, either.

Resale is the sore spot. But did you see that the Sante Fe actually scored well in reliability and earned a recommnedation from you-know-who? The Koreans remind me of Honda in the early 80s.

-juice

krunky

I read on another forum that the Element's spare tire, while narrower to fit under the floor, is the same diameter as the stock tire so that the "Real-Time 4WD" still works.

I guess I've been spoiled with the few times I've used the fullsize spare on my VW.

varmint

I stand corrected re: the Forester. Thanks Juice. But it is true of the Escape and a few others.

Krunky - Yep. The Element uses a full diameter donut. Any vehicle with a reactive AWD system is required to have a full-size or full-diameter spare. With one tire smaller than the others, the AWD would sense a difference in axle speeds and be engaged 100% of the time. Unlike systems like those used in Audis and Subarus, that condition is likely to cause serious damage.

ateixeira

"SUV" and "donut" should be mutually exclusive. I think we can all agree on that. I don't like the idea of donuts on any car.

But I think my Miata with Land Rover-style roof mounted spare is a little over the top. ;-)

Element and Escape should have them, though, definitely. A narrow donut, even with the right diameter, will dig you right into the sand, and just look at where the ads show them.

Different diameters would harm RT4WD, but they'd also harm Subie's auto AWD or VC systems, too. They allow some axle variation, because they have a center differential, but not much.

-juice

chris777

I can understand a car company having a single prototype unit and not allowing potential customers to sit in it.

however it is extremely annoying and a major turn off for a company to put a vehicle that is slated for production and force the consumers to salivate over it instead of getting a taste.

I saw the element back in April at the Atlanta auto show along with the pilot, both of which were on turn tables. and I got the same prototype story from customer service then as some are getting now.

my problem is many of us getting that story. yet their are plenty of shots of regular joes in elements at other shows.

how many prototypes does honda need?

their were at least 4 or 5 back when I saw element and now their are so many I've lost count.

what a lame excuse.

I personally am beginning to wonder about it myself. has anyone else noticed the peculiarity with hondas presentation of the element? a company so secretive with every other vehicle it launches and yet we seem to know most everything about it save the most important point ... price.

I personally hope they surprise us by undercutting some of the original price projections (a likely pipe dream I know)

but it seems the more I hear about the element the more I keep thinking why didn't hondas just make a dx crv and use the protective coating and water resistant fabrics from the element?

price projections and production cost apparently are extremely close from an article I recently read. and judging from honda dealer quoted prices on automatic transmission and added air conditioning the base element gets extremely close to base crv price. all the while loosing 1 passenger seat, 2 rear roll down windows, stereo system, fuel economy,ect.

sorry about the rant but im beginning to get ill to say the least since I've been looking to buy since before last year at this time but I ended up holding off untill the matrix and then deciding to wait to sit in the element in April

and now im hearing how honda is still shafting others interested in its products some 7 months, after my own dissapointing experience, and just shy over a month untill the vehicles release.

ropedart

Good thing I didn't go the Seattle Auto show. What a waste of time that would have been. Thanks for the tip. Perhaps they heard about the abuse the show models got and got worried about how the cheap construction would show thru.
I am not surprised. This model was rushed thru with desperate cost and weight cutting measures made. New parts everywhere. The first year will be a rough one for the Element. There will lots of used Elements for sale by mid-year after they discover its a little bit too slow, a little bit too small and cheaply made.
Its funny I have not seen this car but I feel I know it very well thanks to the net.
Now I am waiting for the real thing. The Acura version. Which IMHO will be a combination of the best things about the CRV and Element: More power perhaps hybrided. Regular 4 doors and seats 5. Longer for more cargo. Low, flat, wipe-able cargo area with tailgate. Painted cladding or no cladding at all. 2 sunroofs. Element suspension. Lets start a new forum topic LOL.

Anakin

Wow, can you give me the winning lotto number for tonight? You sure seem able to predict the future. Why are all your posts about the Element negative?

Despite not being able to get into the Element, the auto show wasn't a waste of time. Of course, I like to look at lots of different kinds of cars.

My wife really likes it, but I'm not sure if it will be right for her. She has really become used to the seat heaters and luxury feel of my Jetta, yet she insists that she wants another Honda (she has a 95 Accord) because hers has been so rock-solid reliable. I was rather impressed with the interior feel of the new Accord, however. Much more substantial and luxurious than the 98 I had.

robertsmx

This model was rushed thru with desperate cost and weight cutting measures made. New parts everywhere.
Rushed? It is not that Honda had to start from scratch to build this vehicle. They had the platform and drivetrain to start with. It was time to get a different theme this time, and for that, couple of years of development might be enough.
As for cost cutting measures, I'm sure there are some, but then, who doesn't do cost cutting? If they don't, price will go up with every piece.
I wouldn't bother myself with 'new parts' excuse. First, I don't know what parts are new to worry about, and secondly, I leave it upto quality control of the company that delivers the vehicle, not assumptions.

ropedart

If you find yourself waiting a long time for an Element delivery consider that Honda is doing you a favor. I predict as with all first year cars that there will be teething problems. It is better that Honda limit the number of lemons out there to control recalls. There are lots of new parts to worry about. The gearing, shafting, and suspension are all new. Honda will try its best but stuff happens in the first year.

People are already putting deposits down. I waiting to see how fast they end up in the used car lot. That is how GenY will really get them. If they get it cheap from some frustrated customer they won't care about plastic bits falling off. They will duct tape it back on. Brilliant scenario for Honda. Soak the boomers and still get GenY.

Its not that the Element is bad. It will frustrate a lot of impulse buyers. The suicide doors will irritate people. People will miss the 5th seat. Cargo bay cannot by made bigger by sliding the rear seats forward. They don't.

If you note the 5 speed MT AWD is delayed until JUNE! They are having problems.

inmyelement

LOL !!! LOL OH I needed that THANKS

chris777

with all its suicide door glory ?

it looked better from concept drawings though lol

ropedart

Yep the next car is already done. Note the Acura RD-X has no cladding. Somehow I think the production model will be a little boxier!

robertsmx

The suicide doors will irritate people. People will miss the 5th seat.
Well, those are the things people need to think about before they get the vehicle, not after it. Are you suggesting that people will not notice lack of 'fifth' seat when they get the first look at the vehicle? You have been drawing a lot of conclusions for others. Is it from experience?

ropedart

People are people. Quite a number will fall for the new hype. Some people have too much loose change in their pocket. When the fashion thing is over they realize its not for them. Stuff happens. Unexpected babies arrive. The mother in law moves in. Some won't know that you have to take your seat belt off to get the rear people out.

krunky

I'm considering giving up my VW Golf for an Element. At the dealership, I was comparing the civic to what I have now. Everything seemed really delicate in the Honda. But the VWs have quality issues too. "German engineering" is the biggest marketing ploy ever.
I work in automotive, and of all the new vehicles I've seen lately, the one with the crappiest build quality has to be the $50,000 Hummer H2.
Did they ever make cars "like they used to"?

daveghh

The Hummer H2 is mostly your standard 1/2 ton pick up with a different casing. Way overrated and way too expensive for what it is. Plus I saw one up close and the guy who drove it really rubed me the wrong way. I wouldn't want to be seen in an H2 ever.

robertsmx

I couldn't really argue against what you just said. It applies to just about any vehicle/type. It is all about what one needs now not what one would need a few months or years down the road.

theking

I have read that Element EX has only drivers's armrest as the pre 2002 CRV's had! Why??? How much more would the added armrest cost???

ateixeira

Honda is smart not to let people crawl in not-yet-released models. Why? Because you might see something that would cross if off your list.

What they want is dealer traffic, you and your family inside a dealership where a quick sale can be made, maybe even an impulse buy.

At an auto show, even if you love it to death, doesn't guarantee you'll buy it. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

I don't think the back seat is a big deal - I really think it'll appeal to people that rarely even use it. In a survey in DC, 90% of cars sampled had only the driver in it.

And teething issues with the latest generation of cars from Japan Inc is a real thing, just look at the list of formerly Mega-Reliable cars that are now just average:

Honda Civic
Nissan Altima
Toyota Camry
Subaru Impreza

So noone is immune. You could add Mazda Tribute, but that's much lower than average.

-juice

jvkalra

This is an apples to oranges comparision, but is anyone interested in the Scion bbx from Toyota? It's supposed to be available on the West Coast starting June next year. I'm not interested, but know that the bbx has been in production for almost 3 years in Japan, and will have rock solid reliability. Having seen one in person in Japan, I was really impressed with the fit/finish and interior room. The styling is love it or hate it, just like the Element:

http://www.scion.com/see/see_bbx00.html

diploid

I'm not.

I find the Element much more coherent and well thought out. The design, while simplistic, is also complex with its angles and curves. I just don't think the Scion matches the Element in the subtle areas of design. But then again, that's the advantage of coming out 3 years after the Scion.

chris777

I keep hearing about the civic having reliability issues in the current generation

is it true that consumer reports has dropped its reliability rating to average?

diploid

CR has indeed dropped the Civic in reliability rating. I don't know what other compact car has surpassed it, though. Certainly ain't the Focus.

ropedart

How did Honda get 190 HP out of a 2.4 L engine? Different emissions standard? Is there a limit?
This is the engine in an Element that would have shut up everyone including me.
They say the Euro Accord will end up being a NA Acura. Then the engine will be a Acura. Which means this engine is for the Acura RD-X (non-hybrid)? Will Honda really let the Element AT AWD slog along for years?

strager

I would expect Element to get an average reliability from CR. After all, it's a vehicle designed almost exclusively for the U.S, and such vehicles IMO have looser tolerances for fit/finish compared to vehicles designed for the JDM.

ateixeira

The Scion seems more compact. I saw them both in person at the NY Auto Show, and the Element towers over it.

Also, it's very narrow. Look at that pic with the front seats - they're almost touching. No center console would fit. It'll feel claustrophobic, and you'll bump elbows with your passenger all the time.

But the bottom line is the Scion looks dorky, while the Element has an appeal that is hard to explain.

Civic has had something like 6 recalls since the launch. That's unheard of for Honda. It think Corolla is ahead in that regard.

-juice

varmint

"How did Honda get 190 HP out of a 2.4 L engine?"

The same way they got 240 hp out of a 2.0L block. Take a look at where the torque peak is for the Euro Accord. Apply that kind of power to the 3,400+ lbs in the Element. Don't get me wrong. 190 hp would move the Element rather smartly, but you'd have to rev it pretty hard.

ateixeira

The 2.4l is fine for the CR-V. Wait to drive the Element before making conclusions.

A big, efficient 4 banger sometimes is better than a small V6. CR-V outruns the Santa Fe and XTerra easily.

-juice

chris777

I took a trip to a local honda dealer today after having had my brakes lock up on me this morning needless to say im re thinking getting abs on my next vehicle.

but anyway I told the sales person I was looking at the accord, the cr-v and the element when it comes out. She informed me that they were already planning to hike the price like they had done to the pilot when its released, also said they were getting 3 or 4 dx's with build dates in mid December didn't really get more than that though.

on an interesting (and possibly alarming) side note I looked at a galopagos green civic and I personally really like the color much better than I thought I would . BUT while checking out the accords and waiting on the salesrep to get a key to an lx I finnaly spotted the infamous shoddy painting I've heard about recently on several message boards , and get this it was on of all things an accord ex-l v6. what exactly does this say about honda when their very flagship vehicle has a poor spray job on it? it was the desert mist metallic on the rear passenger fender by the way , it looked like a bad spray job on something that someone had tried to repair and they never bothered to do a second coat. I even squatted down to touch it to make sure it wasn't possibly dust.

I know before I buy anything I'm inspecting it head to toe in the sun (just like i would do a used car)and writing the vin down before I buy.

so much for thinking I can avoid a lemon or misrepresentation by buying new

ropedart

Everyone talks about how the Element has adequate power. Even the journalists say its OK. But the Element is not a sports car. Its meant to take some gear somewhere. So you really have to load it up it outdoor gear to find out what its like in reality. Perhaps 2 boards, a friend, camping stuff, food, clothes, etc. Then you start to drive off. If you don't test drive an Element with "stuff" you may be fooled into thinking its OK. I think you have to start with more power than you need for future load considerations, especially given the intent of this vehicle.

ateixeira

Allow me to correct myself, but CR just upgraded the Civic to "better than average" reliability. So maybe it was first-year jitters.

Still, no big red dots overall next to any Honda, is the world coming to an end? ;-)

Sucks about the paint. You should always take a close look, though, and buy a car on a bright sunny day so any flaws would stand out. My cousin's Odyssey is gold and has several paint chips on it.

Take your family with you to the test drive. Load it up and sample it the way you're going to use it, including a highway on-ramp.

I think lots and lots of folks don't take a long enough test drive and look-see, and end up be bothered by things they could have noticed before the purchase, such as road noise or comfort.

-juice

strager

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/021113/law065_1.html

The prices are Honda reasonable before dealer markup, but I doubt the target demographic has that kind of money to blow on a "lifestyle" vehicle.