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Comments
I'd bet VW is a success on this basis.
wishnhigh1,
we're in complete agreement on this, we just disagree on the size of that segment.
When I made the preceding statement I had no idea it would generate so many passionate responses. I have heard varying opinions on VW's attempt to sell a high end sedan under VW vs. the AUDI brand name and I respect each point of view.
There are some of you may have incorrectly assumed that anyone who would have no interest in driving a VW branded vehicle is a snob. A snob is someone who feels socially superior others. Are there a lot of snobs driving high end BMW's and MB's? Sure. However there are a lot of snobs driving Toyota, Honda, and even VW branded cars.
Many of us whether rich or poor are attached to particular brands. For example some people will only buy Coca-Cola when there are generic brands that taste just as good or even better. I have a friend who only buys MB S class sedans not because he is a snob but because he genuinely feels that no other car manufacturer makes a car as solid and safe as a Mercedes Benz.
Most of the people that I know who are willing to spend in excess of $60K on a car are comfortable with a particular brand name whether it be Jaguar, MB, or BMW. The only way to get them to consider another brand is to give them an option that seems to be equivalent to what they have. I am not aware of anyone who currently owns a high end sedan that would consider a VW branded car to be an equivalent alternative.
Some of you have mentioned that there are wealthy individuals who have no interest in a luxury brand. That is true. However most of the affluent people I have met who choose not to drive a luxury car actually drive inexpensive American or Japanese cars. Many of those individuals will only purchase used cars, some might actually splurge on a Toyota Camry, but I cannot think of any wealthy person trying to keep a low profile who would consider spending $60K on a VW or any other brand.
The preceding raises a serious question. If most of the current owners of high end cars are brand conscious and if many of the affluent who refuse to buy luxury cars spend modest amounts on cars, how large is the market segment that would consider buying a VW in excess of $60K?
I recall that someone was concerned about having to pay more if the Phaeton was sold as an Audi. My response to that is that if Audi dumped the current A8 which is a poor seller and replaced it with the AUDI PHAETON or A12 there would be no need to raise the price. Why? Because if AUDI dumped the A8 then the AUDI PHAETON would not take away sales another AUDI model. In terms of manufacturing cost the only additional cost would be minor cosmsetic changes primarily to change VW to AUDI.
I have no doubt in my mind though that the Toreg will be a success. If they can make it "fun to drive" like the Jetta, Passat, & GTI models watch out SUVs. My Dad who has been drving SUVs since before they were called SUVs currently drives a 2001 Infiniti QX4. My Sister has a 2000 VR6 Jetta GLS and he LOVES that car. An SUV with the sole of a VW...sign him up!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I'm guessing there will be. And I imagine it will be stunning and put the 7-Series, S-Class and the Phaeton on the trailer (although it will share a good deal mechanically w the VW).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Currently the only engine that is shared is the 1.8T, which is tuned differently for different brands.
greendemon
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
With the more sober aspects of ownership, like maintenance, reliability, and customer satisfaction, we all must contend (at least anyone who really drives) so those are points well taken.
L
Well, you will. It's coming in the Touareg.
J
Yes a stripped TLC can be had for $12-14k less than an LX470 but there are maybe two or three stripped TLC's in the world. Every TLC that I saw was within a few thousand bucks of the Lexus.
Granted you may spend another $10k the first year on repairs, but it is still a cheaper way to get a 12 cylinder...
of this Product...;)
M
Complete insanity over at VW.
Did they drive the thing? If not, then it shouldn't be called "first drive." :^P
I'm keeping my eye on this one. I think it's a beautiful car.
M
Does VW expect to sell Bentleys in VW dealerships? It would take a super salesman to switch between a kid who's looking for a Golf and someone looking at a $300,000 car. Not to mention the service department. What do you mean you want a comped loaner?
VW dealers selling anything over $35,0000 seems nutty.
Toyota introduced the Lexus with it's reputation for rock solid reliabity and established a dealer organization that raised the bar about 10 notches. And fortunately Lexus introduced the LS400 at a time when it's competitors, MB and BMW were at the end of their product cycle.
I can't understand how VW expects its salesman to deal with both kids and business executives.
This thread is actually putting into more tangible form what I have known and said for some time. We as Americans, by and large, are vain and snobbish when it comes to material things. We think that everything that has the "proper name" must be worth more and better in perceived quality than something that doesn't necessarily have the same cache. And in some cases, like with clothes and lawn care products, I would have to agree. But in the particular realm of automobiles, I have to differ wholeheartedly. I have read many of the posts in this thread and a lot of them say, "I would never spend $70,80,90K (or whatever atsronomical figure they can think of) for a VW."
Well, why not? You don't think VW is making a car that is worth the kind of
money they are asking for it? Do you think you would spend that kind of money and get the reliability of a '93 VW Fox or early 80s model VW? No, I don't think so.
The comment that you wouldn't spend XYZ on VW should certainly extend to
other car makers as well. Lots of the "luxury" cars you buy here in America start off as another plebian brand in another country, without mystifying names to cloud their original origins. And by this I am mainly refering to the Japanese marques, although we know other makers, i.e. Jaguar and Audi, among others, that use the platforms and pieces of its lesser corporate siblings. There is no Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura in Japan, per se. The same cars you pay $40,50,60,70K for here are STILL TOYOTAS, NISSANS, and HONDAS in their home market. People there don't mind spending the extra money to get better quality, better materials, and more gadgets. While we, on the other hand, require a luxury name to justify spending money on a very well-made, techonologically advanced automobile. We have to be sure we look the most regal and the Joneses are jealous and then, and only then, can our egos be properly stroked. GOD HIMSELF COME DOWN FROM ON HIGH AND STRIKE US DEAD LEST WE SPEND $60,000 ON A TOYOTA LS430 OR NISSAN Q45.
And since people want to talk of brands and images and prestige factors,
remember this: Mercedes' and BMWs are used as taxis all over Europe, parts of South America, and Indonesia (more Bimmers there). Mercedes-Benz also makes tractor trailers that are used to haul such common and base things like toothbrushes, toilet paper and live chickens. These things don't seem to offend people who own an MB car in Europe or elsewhere. They don't feel "the brand is being polluted but consorting with *gulp* riff raff." Volvo, Rover, and many others are in the same boat, so to speak. So, anyone going to stop buying these cars?
Volkswagen has, since the mid-90s, come full circle in the areas of quality
control, style, and reliability in its cars. In case you haven't noticed, people and the automobile press rave for the Passat, the Jetta, the Golf and the other models. And in case you haven't been in any of these models, they certainly impart even a more luxurious and solid feel than many of their competitors in their respective segments. Driving a Passat, to me and to others who have been in one, is like driving in an Audi or E-Class or Infiniti. The car is THAT well-made.
Volkswagen AG has stated that they are not trying to directly compete with
their own luxury division Audi by making the Phaeton or any future upscale models. They are complementing their lineup. Most VW owners wanted to move on to a different vehicle after the Passat but didn't necessarily make the supposed logical move to an Audi vehicle. It is still not widely known that VW owns Audi. But they have pointed to the fact that Audi will take the luxury sport mantle ahead of VW which will take on a more upscale, luxury air. You want utter speed and handling? Go to Audi. You want more tame, but no less invigorating luxury? Go to Volkswagen.
So, on that note, everyone who is saying you can't spend over $0.35 on a VW,
please, get over yourselves. Put away your ridiculous pride and overwrought vanity and look at the Phaeton as a excellent car that can hold its own with all the other so-called "luxury" divisons. From what I have seen on this board, arrogance should have been one of the 7 deadlies.
Hats off to Volkswagen. I think they're doing a great thing. And I defy anyone to tell me what are the benefits of buying an MB/BMW/Infiniti/Jaguar. etc over this particular automobile. Oh, and to make this more interesting and intellectually challenging, lets just skip the prestige bullcrap. And the styling thing, get over it. It's not an Aztek . .
By the way I go wherever I think there are decent values so I understand full well what you are saying and don't think you are wrong to say it. I just don't see it happening but let's see. The car has had a good start in Europe but let's see if it has staying power.
BTW - it takes Audi 2+ years to sell 6000 A-8's in the US. It takes Lexus about 2 months and MB about 3 to sell that many of the LS430 and S-class cars. Do you think VW will ever get that far?
Though I've personally never understood why Audi doesn't sell more A8s. I've always believed that if people got past their negative thoughts (some deserved, some not) about Audi and actually drove the A8 they'd like it. I can't tell you how many times I've talked with people about the A8, in the street, at the autoshows, etc and when the prices comes up they almost always say "you may as well get "the" Benz". As much as I love MB I cringe at that statement. In my opinion there isn't a more deserving, underrated luxury car in country. Especially the S8!
The only thing I could wish for is that VW waited a few more years with the Phaeton so that the A8 would have more momentum built up in this country. The Phaeton has the potential to severly the damage the A8's position in the US market.
M
And I assure you, ljflx, that people with money don't automatically flock to what is "high end" and look for ways to show off how much moneyt hey have. If that was the case, I wouldn't see my mom at Wal-Mart every other week. I also wouldn't be seeing Winona Ryder stealing from Saks Fifth Avenue after making millions in films.
Winona lost almost all of her money, unfortunately.
However, I think that the Phaeton has potential to sell because it is breaking into niche markets...and it gives you a world class luxury car for a not so world class price.
produced for existing Volkswagen Customers...
Consider any converts the icing on the cake!!!
I'm sure there's a reason why the LS430, 3.5RL, and Q45 aren't called "Toyota Celsior" and "Honda Legend" and "Nissan Cima" here in this market. Somehow, VW's ego-driven leadership said "these cars need to have the same names in all markets," so Phaeton and Touareg will be coming here with these wacko names. Wacko names for wacko ideas, such as cutting into one's own luxdivision, as merc1 pointed out.
Depends where you are... Rochester Hills has Fox Chevrolet-Toyota-Volkswagen (wanna buy a Phaeton here?) and a new, brand-spankin-new Audi dealer in the other side of town. Ann Arbor's Howard Cooper does Honda, Volkswagen-Audi, and Porsche, so you'll be in the same showroom looking at Phaetons and A8s and wondering "what the heck?!"... yep. Audi simply doesn't have the presence here in North America to suffer its own "friendly fire" from Volkswagen, even though VW says "VW will be lux and Audi will be sport" which makes zero sense. Audi should be luxosport and VWs should be low-cost and sporty. And they shouldn't be throwing themselves at the same guy at the same time.
any facility that is not stand alone Volkswagen MarketPlace.
vwguild,
Really? I've been waiting on someone with VW knowledge to say something about that. So you're saying all the VW dealers around here that are teamed with Hyundai, Nissan and Mazda stores are not going to sell the Phaeton? If that is the plan the Phaeton is going to have a hard time here (Chicagoland) because there are only about 3 stand alone VW franchises here. Sound strategy if VW had already made the changes to their dealers, but they haven't and I don't see any new construction going on at any of the "teamed" franchises.
M
I happen to think cars without a name are kinda gimicky. That's what the Japanese were doing. They were going after the European lux cars in the 80s and 90s and decided that alphanumeric names impart some sense of intangible luxury in the American market.
But I think it is good that the only thing you and people who susbcribe to your same opinions can think to complain about is price and names.
I believe the only person who could enjoy a name like SL600 or 745iL is John Nash.
for now...3 Dealers in Chitown is all we need....
M
volume, but Dealers...And there will probably be a short list for the New Beetle Cabrio as well...
And did I mention Sports Package W8s?
bscblue, fact that you slipped spelling "Touareg" seems to argue for my point.
It's not that I think VW is incapable of selling quality expensive cars... it's that they have Audi for that purpose. Put the dang money into Audi A8 successor!
Like I said, we have "Herr Wacko aus Wolfsburg" coming in and trying to explain this to Americans... aintgonnahappen.com (I must credit autoextremist.com for this)! VW is going too far uptown with their marque, and it's preventing them from selling affordable cars (Jetta is overpriced... excellent build quality, but überkostet... too expensive!) and the dubiousness of trying to move the brand Uptown in this economy is pure folly.
I foresee a mess for Volkswagen on this. Not because anything is wrong with the Phaeton, but because something is wrong with Volkswagen itself in terms of marketing.
On a different note, I've seen Passat W8s at every VW dealer, is that going to change?
M
It'll have all the toys and a 20 cylinder motor. It'll be 220 inches long and more options than Nebraska football.
Funny thing, it'll still have that petro chemical Hyundai smell.
Phaeton is a nice car but interior styling is not the least bit sporty and reminds me of 70's GM cars.
Bottom line here.....would you buy a Phaeton of a loaded E class or M5?
That's the real issue...when it comes to parting with the pig, will you actually buy a VW?