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Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

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  • eharri3eharri3 Posts: 645
    I have a friend who missed out on having her mother around in her late teens because someone decided it might be fun to go boozing and cruising. I've always believed even allowing oneself to get into a situation where you are drunk and have access to a car is a form of premeditation. The whole decision making process starts at the very beginning of the night before the first drinks go down.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,782
    If you kill someone while driving drunk in New York State, the maximum sentence you can get is 15 years in prison. 2 summers ago I was called for Grand Jury Duty and got picked. For those of you who don't know, the Grand Jury decides if there is enough evidence to bring the case to trial. So we heard multiple cases over the month of doing our civic duty. The majority of them were DWI cases. The legal limit for DWI in NY is .1 BAC. 95% of the cases we heard had people blowing .15 & higher (one guy blew a .42 3 hours after they arrested them when he regained conciousness). All the cases for DWI we heard except for maybe 2, the people were repeat offenders & many were driving on already suspended lisences.

    I'm always reading all these horror stories about parents or children getting killed by a drunk driver who walks away without a scratch.

    drunk drivers speed, swerve, drive slow on the highway (so they think the Trooper won't notice somebody doing 40mph on the highway).

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • dinu01dinu01 Posts: 2,586
    eharri: I agree with you on the premeditation part, as one is aware there will be drinks at a party and choses to drive. Once there they chose to have a drink again. The final choice is whether they are fit to drive. Unfortunately, but true...
  • kinleykinley Posts: 854
    Yes, Brent it is legal to be a LLC ONLY WHEN AT THE SPEED LIMIT for at that limit nobody is being impeded because all are obligated to be driving no faster than the maximum allowed by law. LLC appears to be somewhat of a bother to drivers who want to break the speed law. In their frustration they think the LLC is in control of them, by not getting out of their chosen path of excessive speed. A rolling herd at the speed limit is much safer than the high speed freak who chooses to not conform. Obll: I don't want to "punish" anyone, but the speed freak justs thinks he is being punished or controlled. Lines at the bank, post office, and stores are facts of life that don't frustrate me. Why do they bother you? Instant Gratification Syndrome strikes again? dinu01: I don't care that you go faster than the limit, but why do you care to go too fast? Road Rage is when the frustrated driver makes a conscious decision to behave adversly by losing control of his emotions and blames it on the object of his frustration in an attempt to avoid responsibility for his pathetic behavior. Being in the crosshairs is not the same as pulling the trigger. (When traversing at less than the limit, I'm not a LLC)
  • eharri3eharri3 Posts: 645
    A rolling herd is safer than speed differentials?
    Maybe one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. People cruising in eachother's blindspots or right next to eachother, day dreaming, talking on cell phones, eating Big Macs, wandering into my lane whenever the highway curves even a little bit... sorry, I don't buy it. I don't like sitting next to those people.

    I like to avoid crowds and keep moving and if someone else wants to do the same I respect that. Ever seen a sign that says "Keep right except to pass, but if you're doing the speed limit it's OK to stay in the left lane even if you're getting passed on the right and there's a long line of cars backed up for miles behind you with all the drivers giving you the finger and passing on the right with a foot to spare?" Nope. You only see "Keep right except to pass." In many states it is in fact the law: No cruising in the left lane, regardless of speed. Wherever you see the law discussed, there's no caveat saying 'but if you're doing the speed limit or below it's OK.' I HAVE seen people pulled over for it. Because it's common sense: when people who want to drive at a certain speed are stuck behind others who want to drive considerably slower, when there's no good reason for those slow drivers to be on the left, you increase frustration and the likelihood for erratic behavior. Again, Mind your own darn business. You still haven't proven how if I wizz by you at 85 while you're doing 65 and disappear in the distance I am endangering your life. I think it's old man's syndrome... none of them young whipper-snappers should be going any faster than a nice, experienced, safe driver like yourself who thinks unnecessary congestion and rolling traffic jams are perfectly safe. Speeding in itself isn't safe. Driving too fast for road or traffic conditions is. Left lane campers create rolling traffic jams, an unsafe traffic condition.

    Show me a badge then I have to do what you want. If you don't have one get the heck out of my way if you are not actively passing other cars and I'll do the same for you. Yes, speeders are violating the law. But speeding in and of itself does not interfere with anything you do. Left lane camping is a direct interference in other people's driving patterns. Like I said before... your type of thinking totally defeats the purpose of the multiple lane highway, which is so that drivers who want to go faster don't have to get stuck behind slower drivers. Everybody gets to go at their comfort speed so that there's no necessary congestion. By your thinking all highways should just be one lane since people like you want to get in the left lane but then go the same speed as the next car over anyway.
  • This weekend, my fiance and I were pulling out of a grocery and drove up to a red light about 200 feet down. A '94-ish Grand Marquis came blasting up behind us and barely missed creaming out rear bumper. I saw his nose dive for the ground and I held on tight. But wait....there's more!

    After the light turns green he promptly gets into the left lane and passes us. Traffic is backed up by the next light about 1/2 mile down and we are all slowing down. This idiot evidently didn't see the MILLION brake lights in front of him and goes into a full panic stop about 6 inches from the rear bumper of a new Caddy DHS. Full wheel lock and skidding, screeching rubber, smoke and all. WHAT A MORON!

    Makes me hope he gets what's coming to him without hurting anyone else.
  • Kinley: LLC's like yourself are the equivalent of golfers who play slowly and don't let the people behind them play through, and then rationalize it by saying that the golfers behind are cheating on their score anyway, so they don't deserve to play through. All they do is infuriate everybody else behind them, and unnecessary friction is formed between others.

    The rules of etiquette are there in golf to ensure that this friction never occurs. Likewise for the rules of driving etiquette. And one such rule is "Keep right except to pass".

    You see, driving to some people is something they enjoy. To others, they just want to get to their destination as soon and safe as possible. Sure, they may cheat (speed), but why does that bother you so much? Just keep right, let them pass, and everyone's happy. Why cause people behind you to get angry and possibly do something stupid in their anger? Keep in mind that, though you may be doing the speed limit, those behind you certainly can not, because a person's speed normally fluctuates within ~5MPH as they drive.

    Kinley, I know that you stand very strongly on this issue, I just want to know why? Are you mad at the world? Did you get in an accident in the right lane once? It makes no sense to me why someone would go so out of their way to tick off others around them when it would be so much easier to just let them by and let life go on.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,913
    A couple of stories that might come under the heading of 'road etiquette"...


    I was riding in a friend's car on a trip to D.C. He does NOT like to exceed the speed limit. He'll go right up to it, but he won't go over it. We were headed south on I-83 somewhere north of Baltimore, cruise control locked in on 55 with traffic passing us in bunches. I wasn't saying anything to my buddy because I figure it's best to let the person in control of the car STAY in control of the car, but I was VERY uncomfortable sitting in a "rolling roadblock". Suddenly, flashing lights appear behind us and it becomes apparent the trooper wants US for some reason. When we pull over, the trooper comes up and warns my buddy for not keeping up with the traffic, that he was creating a dangerous situation on the highway. Didn't get a ticket, although I don't know if a ticket could be issued or not. Since I didn't say anything to him, I couldn't say "I told you so", but I DID give a silent THANKS to the trooper.


    Other story happens on I-95 between Washington and Baltimore. We were returning in the evening from a trip to DC, my Dad behind the wheel, and it is raining HARD. So hard that the road is starting to flood a bit in the right lane and it's extremely difficult to see the lines on the road in the glare of the oncoming headlights in the water. Not much in the way of traffic heading our way, so my Dad is riding in the left lane. Less water to contend with and it's much easier to follow the road by watching the left side guard rail. Waa Waa Waa... flashing lights, siren... pulled over for "failure to drive to the right". Didn't matter that the right lane was under water and that we might have run off the road because you couldn't see anything in the downpour, Dad got the ticket. So even "extenuating circumstances" were of no avail when it came to being an accidental LLC.




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  • pjyoungpjyoung Posts: 885
    Kinley's world nobody should be driving faster than the posted speed and if they suffer from road rage, they will blame it on someone else.

    Real world - somebody will get road rage, shoot out Kinley's windshield, and the culprit will most likely only get probation from a sympathetic jury.

    In other words Kinley, it just ain't worth it. Please heed the signs that say "Keep right except to pass". Most of the "speed demons" really are passing others, whether their speed is legal or not. You could also be "protecting" someone who is trying to get to an emergency room as quickly as possible. You never know.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    I should have predicted this would degenerate into another LLC discussion. There are obviously lots of people (like every time I'm on the interstate) who have no idea what 'lane ettiquette' is, nor any interest in learning about it. But I digress, this argument goes round and round, where it stops, nobody knows.

    I was just on Western Avenue (a big north-south thoroughfare in Chicago, generally with four lanes and a center median for turning, etc). It was about 4:30, so traffic is fairly heavy, but moving along nonetheless (probably ~30mph). Earier I see someone in an older BMW 3-series behind me, not doing anything strange. After the next light, this guy gets in the median and passes everyone for probably about three blocks (mind you, there are frequently cars turning in the median, or even worse, pedestrians waiting to cross the street). This area is a mix of commerical, residential and industrial. Guy keeps passing everyone (me included) only to be stopped at the same red light where we all ended up. Of course, no cops to be found.

    I hate to generalize, but BMW drivers, at least in Chicago, are generally among the most inconsiderate @$$holes out there. Doesn't matter if the bimmer is twenty years old, they're just as bad, and usually on the phone while doing so.
  • dinu01dinu01 Posts: 2,586
    Q: I don't care that you go faster than the limit, but why do you care to go too fast?
    A: The limit in Canada is 100km/h - 63mph. I like to drive on the city's highways anywhere from 110-140km/h (69-88mph), depending on traffic, weather, if I'm tired, etc.... Yes I am breaking the law. So what? If the right hand lane is going 90km/h I will NOT drive above 110 km/h as one of those drivers might pull in front of me.

    It's really about sharing the road. I work evenings and drive home at 10PM. There is always for some reason a lost soul with a brain-dead mind that sits there in the left lane, even though traffic is going at his speed in the middle lane. Last nite for example, I came upon 2 of these. I flashed the 1st guy, he moved over, all good here, everyone was on their way at their speeds. The 2nd guy however was a smart@$$ and decided it's his duty to sit his @$$ there, even though at that point there was not 1 car for the next 100 m (300ft) in the middle lane. Why? It bothers me so much to see this. Please explain this to me, as I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU.

    BTW I was going about 130km/h at the time (81mph). I guess I should have been ticketed while the other guy was doing the right think...

    THIS MY FRIEND IS WHAT P!$$#$ PEOPLE @%% - aka creates road rage

    Regards,
    Dinu
  • avro1avro1 Posts: 6
    Well we know that speed limits are there to protect lives, and the majority of the people agree with them, thats why most drivers drive above the speed limit. I'm not sure but I read somewhere that the 400 series were designed to safely handle traffic at 140km/h and that the speed limit is 100km/h orignally to save gas. How did it warp into an issue of "safety". Its much safer for cars to slam their brakes because the one person out of a hundred decides since it is legal, he can signal legally to the left lane in front of a person since it is the *responsibility* of the person thats behind him not to hit him. At least thats what Peterson told me. before you retire Mike, can you please raise the speed limits to reasonable levels. I thought speed limits were set to what the majority of the people are comfortable with, not what generates the most revenue. My bad.
  • LLC's get generalized into one big conglomeration. This is done by the "Instant Gratification" mentality of some folks. Now, here's the question I have:

    If I am in the left lane, passing traffic (in the right lane), and someone behind me wants to drive faster, why should I have to merge right, into slower traffic, and get stuck behind right lane, slow traffic? WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE???!!! Do I not have the same rights to be driving out on the interstate as the next person?

    I guess I should clarify this daily, ongoing situation.

    The interstate I commute on typically averages 75-85 mph in the left lane, and anywhere from 60-75/80 in the right lane. During rush hour, both lanes will be fairly congested with traffic. The average distance between cars is about 1 car length. For both lanes. Now like I said, I will be driving in the left lane, passing cars in the right lane. Where is it written in the law that states I HAVE TO MERGE RIGHT? I'm not impeding traffic, because I'm passing cars. I drive a good deal over the speed limit.

    Now, if there's ample room for me to merge over & NOT GET CAUGHT UP & TRAPPED IN THE RIGHT LANE TRAFFIC, I'll move over. That's common respect & courtesy.

    HOWEVER, if moving over to let someone by sticks me in slower traffic, I DON'T MOVE OVER! SIMPLE AS THAT! Doesn't matter to me if its a "law" or not.

    keith
  • dinu01dinu01 Posts: 2,586
    Mark: As far as I know the 400s were designed for faster speed too. I'm not sure anyone gives a damn about this issue when they have to deal with education, healthcare and great $200 tax cuts/person that makes the gov't go in the red now. I'm not a Mike fan as you can tell...

    Keith: As long as you're passing, it's fine. Now if you're passing 2-3 miles faster than the guy in the middle lane, then that's a little inconsiderate, but nevertheless, if you're actually passing, pass all you want, then when it gets clear (if ever) move over.

    Dinu
  • My views on the LLC issue lie somewhere in the middle. My philosophy is that it is best, on the highway, when everyone behaves basically the same way. People who are driving differently than the rest of the traffic are those that cause problems. So, for example, let's say we have a highway, 3 lanes going in each direction, posted speed limit 55 mph. We have a number of vehicles, safely spaced, traveling in the left lane at about 70 mph. The cars in the other two lanes are moving at a reasonably steady 60-65 mph. Now, while all these people are technically breaking the speed limit, I don't see a real problem here. The traffic is flowing along nicely, the speed is not ridiculously fast, and everybody is pretty much driving in the same manner.

    Now, enter 82-year old Horace Magoo, who merges his Cadillac Fleetwood onto said highway and meanders his way over the the left lane, holding a steady 55 mph the whole time. Now, while he is technically the only one on the road who is obeying the speed limit, he fits the definition of an LLC, because the traffic in the left lane was moving uniformly and steadily until he got there, causing everyone to brake, honk, try to pass him on the right, etc. If he wants to hold 55, he should do it in the right lane.

    Now, going back to the initial scenario, let's say something else happens. This time, John Q. Yuppie, who feels the need to impersonate Mario Andretti on his way to work, comes flying up the left lane at 85 mph, only to be blocked by one of the 70-mph cruisers. Now, in this case, is the 70 mph guy an LLC? Should he be forced to merge right? Should Mr. Yuppie be allowed to pass him on the right? WRONG! In this case, just like with Mr. Magoo and his 55 mph Cadillac, this guy is the one who is trying to drive differently than everyone else. And, since there is no lane on this highway for which his speed is appropriate, he should slow his inconsiderate self down and drive like the rest of the people on the highway.

    Basically, I contend that the factor that governs what is and is not reasonable highway driving behavior is consistency, not necessarily speed relative to the limit. Generally, the right lanes establish themselves at some slower speed and the left lanes establish themselves at some faster speed, and it's up to everyone who gets on the highway to pick whichever lane is moving at the pace they prefer. And if none of the lanes is moving fast or slow enough for them, that's too bad. The freeway is one of the few places where excessive diversity is a bad thing.

    -Andrew L
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,782
    Horace Magoo! That's a good one.

    I'd also like to add that I will be the first one to move over (usually I'm going between 75 & 90mph if Im in the left lane) if I notice someone rapidly approaching in my rearview mirror, but If it is going to make me get behind slower traffic in the middle or right lane and stay there for a few minutes, then I'll make the person wait.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,782
    People who pass on the shoulder. These people are different than the people who dont want to sit in traffic and leisurely drive up the shoulder. I'm talking about people who are driving very fast (100mph +) in the left lane and pass on the shoulder. That's not only inconsiderate, but dangerous!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • eharri3eharri3 Posts: 645
    Sitting in traffic, everyone else is sitting there waiting their turn patiently. Traffic may be at a crawl, we all may be irritated, but we're all trying to be orderly in our driving. But then some people, often while talking on cell phones, decide that their time is more important than everyone else's and they shouldn't have to be patient and help maintain an orderly traffic environment. By that I mean the ones who do stuff like pass on the shoulder or try to beat me off the line at a red light to move a spot ahead in line. I almost never let it happen unless trying to keep them out could cause an accident. Funny, you'd be suprised how many people underestimate how quickly a manual transmission regular cab compact truck can get off the line.

    And then of course there's the ones who sneak into merging lanes on the highway to try to jump ahead of the car in front. These people are the hardest to put in their place because it actually looks to the cars they're passing like they're merging onto the highway, and so people usually make space for them.
  • But then when you make the person who's raced up behind you wait, this will invoke RR within Speed Racer! Then, at any give moment, Speed Racer will whip it to the right lane & ATTEMPT to get around you in a gap in the right lane. It doesn't matter how big the gap is. It can be a mile long or it can be 50 feet!

    9 times out of 10, the right lane passer has to make a desparate move back to the left to keep from totaling the car going 60 in the right lane. So, he'll whip it back to the left, no matter how much room is between the car he's just passed, and the car in front of them! I've lost count of the incidents where I've had to literally lock it up from 75+ to keep Speed Racer from clipping me! Let me tell you, this is FAR AND AWAY the most inconsiderate driving practice I see today. Do they think that getting 2 or 3 cars ahead will actually get them to their destination any sooner? I mean really. Yes, you beat 2 other cars to the exit by running up & cutting over at the last minute. Since when did the daily commute become a NASCAR race??!!??

    If I've got room, I'll get over. If I don't have room, or moving over ties me up in traffic, I don't move over. If that ticks you off, tough! But don't be an absolute idiot & think, "Well, I'll show them! I'll just pass on the right & cut them off! YEAH!! That'll prove my point that these LLC'S need to get outta my way!"

    All this will do is show your immaturity, lack of courtesy, and disrespect for others. Patience is a virtue, my friend. Obviously, its one that some of us have no grasp of.

    keith
  • eharri3eharri3 Posts: 645
    I'm on my way home from work one day. I'm in the left of 2 lane I76 lane keeping pace with traffic. Some jerk in a Chevy van is cutting everyone off and weaving in and out though we're crawling along at about 30. He darts in front of me without signalling and maybe a foot to spare. OF course I lay on my horn. All of a sudden I see in his sideview mirror he starts screaming something at me and giving me the finger. Then he starts hitting his brakes abrupty to annoy me, like Im the one in the wrong here. Don't you love it when someone pulls a bone headed stunt on you then gives YOU the finger as if you shouldn't have the nerve to even let them know it irritated you?

    I call the cops and tell them some guy is weaving in and out, driving aggressively, and playing games with other motorists. I know they didn't take me seriously, didn't really expect them to. But then when I get a chance I drive next to Mr. hothead and wave my cell phone in the window. He gets the message immediately and sinks lower in his seat and starts taking real deep breaths and calming himself down and looking kind of worried. I waved cheerfully with a big grin on my face as if to say 'Wish I could be here to see you get pulled over but I have to exit now.'
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,782
    maybe next time that happens, make sure to tell the cops how erratic he is driving and you think he may be drunk because sober people don't drive like that! They may pay attention if they think there's a drunk driver on the road!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • pjyoungpjyoung Posts: 885
    Here in Kansas City (MO and KS) the police encourage motorists to report suspected drunk drivers. They do take it seriously here.
  • eharri3eharri3 Posts: 645
    I think the poor design of this urban expresswayroad, with lots of curves, only two lanes, not expandable, really frustrates people in traffic jams. I'm in the left lane again, keeping pace with the car in front, traffic moving along about 45 or so. I see in my rearview mirror this big BEnz, I think an S500 or 600, dodging back and fourth between lanes, cutting everyone else off, tailgating drivers who have nowhere to move over to, and generally being a real cretin. I pray he'll get stuck behind someone back there so I don't have to deal with him. OF course, just my luck he gets in behind me and rides maybe a foot from my bumper. I literally cannot even see the bottom of his windshield. There's a car in front and to my side, so I can't get over, and besides my exit is coming up on the left anyway.

    I tap the brakes lightly to show my displeasure. No response. I make 'back off' gestures in my rearview. No movement, stays right where he is. I start hitting the brakes a bit more firmly. He movees closer. At this point I'm like " 50 thousand dollar Benz with fragile egg shell bumpers vs. 6 thousnd dollar pickup with nice sturdy chrome ones, and I'd love an excuse to put on a body-colored rear roll pan and some free bodywork anyway." I been hit from behind from even nicer cars than that and had almost no damage.

    So I start really braking hard. Of course, he stays right where he is. I get to my exit, which is on the left. But by now I can read this guy's driving style like a book so I don't bother getting off. And just like I expect, he comes flying by me in the exit lane I was going to use. I notice that as with almost all road-raging slime I encounter, his windows are tinted so he can drive like a jerk without everyone else seeing what he looks like.

    "Fine by me", I think. Once he passes I get over to get off. He has gotten back onto the highway but when he sees me getting off he gets back onto the merging lane and pauses to wait for me, as if he wants to play more games. I'm really not in the mood for it, so I get back on and of course he moves back onto the left lane of the highway, still in front. HE lets me pass him on the right then all of a sudden he whizzes by me doing about 90 and cuts me off again and then disappears into the distance, and even though my adrenaline is flowing by that time I'm still kind of amused that he must be sitting there all satisfied with himself, thinking he really won that road battle and taught me a lesson, as if I cared about anything more than getting off the highway and away from him. I get off at the next exit and go home, hoping one day Mr. S500 gets crushed by a big rig somewhere.
  • eharri3eharri3 Posts: 645
    Some little red sports car, not sure what it was but it must not have been much if a 4 cyl. truck whipped him. Looked like a nissan. Anyway I'm in the slow lane doing about 65 approaching my exit. He decides to try to sneak around me in a merging lane. I am really not in the mood to be cut off anymore. It's been happening all day, like I gotta 'kick me' sign on my truck or something. Plus I know if he gets in I'm gonna have to slow down alot. So I toss it into third and making him eat dust. Of course he was REAL mad and tailgated till I got off.
  • ...was probably my brother. He had a) a flare gun, b) a revolver that would fire gas cartridges, and c) a baseball bat in his car.

    I have seen him use each one of those while driving. It surprises me still that he never got killed during those years. But he has calmed down quite a bit since then.

    He also used the flare gun as a passenger and fired it while we were stopped at busy intersections. I don't think anything else draws quite a much (unwanted) attention.

    ...

    That's one thing why I don't engage in any 'horseplay' on the road. I'd be way too afraid that I'd end up triggering the anger of a nutcase, like my brother.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    -People who use both lanes to make their turn (i.e., they don't move to the right lane to make a right turn, etc.). This also includes the idiots here in Chicago who move to the LEFT on a one way street to turn right (I see this all the time).
    -Drivers who obviously are unable to talk on the phone or eat while driving. Some of us can do this somewhat safely at times. If not, choose one activity or the other, please.
    -Drivers who stop for no reason, or brake intermittently while driving down the street at ~15 mph. These are the same people who stop at red lights; likely they are lost. Please ask for directions, get a map or consult your Nav system, and please pull over to do any of the following.
    -People who TOO-rapidly approach a stop sign, then can't figure out why you assumed they weren't stopping.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    ....the only thing I'd LOVE to have in my car is a dozen eggs, seriously. If it had no consequence, I could probably go through at least a dozen a day whipping them at the drivers I encounter here in Chicago.
  • I still carry a small double edge CRKT and a baseball bat in my car. I guess it is just a habit from growing up in stockton. I don't use it for offensive though.
  • Well, my brother didn't use it offensively, either. I would consider his style more of the 'passive aggressive' kind. One time he ticked off somebody so bad, that this person stopped next to my brother's car and yelled obscenities at him. My brother put one hand on the bat in the back, smiled at the other driver and said: 'Sir, would you please come over ? Come over, please." (over and over, in a rather low voice)

    The other motorist realized that something was terribly wrong and left the scene rather quickly. I was rather frightened, because I know for a fact that my brother would not have backed down.

    As I stated above...stories like that are my justification for not taking any chances.
  • I have been forced to sacrifice my car for my own defense once in my life, and that is one time too many. The truck I drove for work this summer now has 2 small 9mm holes in the truck bed, and a bashed in rear quarter. The knife is fairly small, and undetectable under a pat down test, which is good for personal safety, and the baseball bat has never been used for anything but scaring people off when they get too aggressive.

    Is this what you mean by passive aggressive?
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