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Honda's Hybrid

flickaflicka Posts: 1
edited March 6 in Honda
Honda's Hybrid? Give me a break. If you do the gasoline math at $1.25 a gallon you will see that it will take you over 100,000 miles of operation to recover your additional $4,000 Hybrid option. This does not even include the "EXTRA" HYBRID maintenance costs that even Honda won't comment on. And if you think you are helping to save the planet with your hybrid, you need to get a life. If you want greater mileage for thousands less consider a VW diesel Jetta or Golf. The new turbo-direct-injection diesels are cleaner than some gasoline models and they can get 42/50 MPG respectfully. Save money, save time, and "Oh Yes" save the planet with a diesel...
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Comments

  • cannot be justified by economics. The concept is sound but the present price IS too high even though subsidized by the manufacturers. Only government intervention in the market (e.g CAFE, CARB requirements, incentives, etc.) can make the economics work at this point in hybrid development. But that will be the case for any emerging technology.
  • The big thing that would concern me about a Hybrid at this point is replacing the battery in 5 or 6 years. Hopefully, the cost would have gone way down by that point, but it's still not going to be like going to Sears for a new $59.99 Diehard.

    Like we've discussed before, the hybrids really can't be justified right now on pure economics. They are more for people who can afford to be on the "leading edge".
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    If the true cost of gas was only $ 1.25 we'd have it made, but of corse its heavy subsidized, the battery pack (not the 12v battery) has a 8 year 80,000 mile warranty so worrying about having to replace it 6 years down the road shouldn't be an issue. http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/49260/article.html
    Sure hope the Escape hybrid http://www.hybridford.com will have a extra long warranty on its battery pack, but I don't know. FoMoCo has a big opperutinity here if they don't blow it.
  • timadamstimadams Posts: 294
    Gasoline is subsidized? How?

    And if you start going into emmissions and pollution, consider how clean modern engines burn as well as how to dispose of an electric/hybrid car's batteries.
  • marcbmarcb Posts: 152
    Here's a rough estimate of the difference (...again its a rough estimate ok so don't shoot me).

    Edmunds prices out a manual Honda Civic EX (which is the starting point for the Civic Hybrid) to:

    $16,974

    The Hybrid Civic also has the additional features:

    - Auto climate control
    - Electronic Brake distribution
    - Keyless entry
    - Electric power steering

    If you go for an automatic add $750 to that so lets just round that up to say..
    $18,000


    The Hybrid on the other hand is promised to be less that $20,000.

    I would think that'd apply both for the manual and CVT, so for arguments sake set than to $20,000.


    Even if we give or take $500 for inaccuracies that is still FAR from the $4,000 difference detractors like to mention. There is also a possible $1,500 to $2,000 tax break for the Civic Hybrid in the near future. Add to that the fuel savings and feel good factor (for some) and that isn't too bad.

    The Civic Hybrid will be coming out April yet.... so why not just wait a couple of months and see how it plays out?
  • machiavellimachiavelli Posts: 260
    The tax break would be the key. Also, I think I might want to lease it, and let someone else worry about replacing the battery when the car gets old.
  • marcbmarcb Posts: 152
    I would probably lease it if i were to get one just to hedge my bet.

    On the other hand, i would really prefer a more practical vehicle hybrid than a civic. I'm hoping Toyota will put their hybrid engine in the Matrix. It IS small enough for a super efficient hybrid setup with CVT, it does look like it has the engine bay size, a 110 power outlet best served by a hybrid engine, and an AWD which could easily be converted to a front wheel gas with rear wheel electric motor drive hybrid for on the road AWD.

    But i digress... (-; that should be for another topic.
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    may not apply while driving a 2700lb car with no more than 93HP available. Although the Civic Hybrid may have amenities comparable to an EX, I suspect the ANY other Civic will provide better performance. And leasing is hardly a solution to hybrid economics since leasing any car results in a very high cost/mile as compared to ownership for most cars and use cycles.
  • marcbmarcb Posts: 152
    ..is for the more environmentally enclined, as in "i'm polluting the environment less" feel good factor. But even then the hybrid would probably a be a bit better than its common civic counterparts.

    Remember that from a stand still its the torque that matters not the hp. And contrary to common misconception, electric motors excel on that. A lot of pure electric cars achieve 0 to 60mph in stunning 4 to 6 seconds. If you look at the Ford Escape hybrid and the Dodge Durango hybrid, both perform better than their common counterparts. Hell, 93hp is actually better than Flicka's favorite 1.9 TDI engines. But because it has gobs of torque, it's no slug either.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Quite possibly, the battery disposal is already factored in by Honda. We don't know much about a lot of things about these cars and their components, so how can we really draw conclusions? The only things we can really talk about is whether they are practical or not, or if the technology has the potential to improve or not. And here is the torque curve. In the second graph, notice that under 4000 rpm, the Civic hybrid will perform far better than any other Civic (the comparison is with Civic LX). For around town driving, torque curve under 3500 rpm is all that really matters. To merge with freeway traffic, I feel the Civic hybrid would be adequate, not impressive.

    Hybrid technology isn't going to go mainstream in couple of years. Until then, trying out if you care is or would like to can't be thrown out the window. It is possible that this technology advances almost like computers did in the 90's, or it may be a flop. What is wrong with trying?

    Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. - Einstein
  • machiavellimachiavelli Posts: 260
    I think it will become more and more common over the next few years, and maybe will bridge the gap between today's conventional engines and the zero pollution hydrogen fuel cells in 20 years.

    My concern would still be with the battery pack. I'd hate to have a car 10 years from now that's worth maybe $4000, then the battery dies, and it needs a $2000 battery pack to run again. Yes, the price of the batteries should drop, but I don't think they'll ever be dirt cheap.
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    And I'm pleased to see continued hybrid development. As I've said in other posts, I thinks that hybrids are the ONLY alternative technology to IC-only cars that is potentially viable in the near future. And, of course, any discussion of performance is speculative until independent road test data is available.

    While it is true that high starting/low-end torque will make a car easy to launch and feel quick at low speeds, Its overall performance will suffer if that torque cannot be sustained to sufficient speed. The CVT may help IF it is positively coupled to the engine(s), but if they use a torque converter, that advantage may be negated. We'll have to wait and see, but in any case, it is not likely to have performance comparable to a car of similar price.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Here is a Y2K imported oil link http://content.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990422S0023/ it says we (the US) import something like 56 percent of our oil with Saudi Arabia being one of the countries we count on, our dependency has increased since then, even GWB is saying we need to conserve which speaks volumes. http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news050202-05&category1=evcommunity
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,876
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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Acura DNX to be showcased at NYAS. This car was showcased as Dual Note at Tokyo Motor Show.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,620
    From what little I've seen and read of this concept it looks fantastic.....how can you not like 400hp combined w. fuel efficiency and Honda/Acura build quality.

    BUILD IT, and I will come.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Honda has announced the pricing. The MSRP is $19,550 for 5-speed (46/51 mpg) and $20,550 for CVT (48/47 mpg) and plans to sell 2000 units per month nationwide. There are no options with a long list of features.

    Side airbags, automatic climate control, ABS with EBD (electronic brake distribution), alloy wheels, AM/FM/CD, immobilizer etc. are standard.


    Digital and analog instrument gauge cluster with IMA system display, daytime and nighttime mode, and vehicle system performance meters.

    Upgraded interior with open head front restraints.

    1.3 liter 8 valve/I-4 SOHC iDSI (two spark plugs per cylinder) engine with second generation Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid system, 93 HP @ 5700 rpm and 116 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm.


    www.HondaNews.com

  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    whether adequate performance can be achieved in a 2700lb car with only 93hp. I'm also dismayed that it uses 185/70-14 tires, marginal at best for such a heavy car and a heavily loaded, 70 series suggests poor response. Since this is a size that has been nearly abandoned by the industry, it will be difficult to find good tires in this size. And there is still a substantial price premium over even a Civic EX.

    It will be interesting to see how the market responds.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Adequate performance as everyone knows is quite subjective, some want to be able to get a 3 rd gear scratch, others want to merge onto the freeway, the OEM tires don't sound great believe I'de change them out, IMO the car itself should sell well if big problem(s) don't crop up.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Civic Hybrid will be similar to diesels in execution. It has a near (peak) flat torque curve from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm. As long as the driving involves keeping the engine speed under 4500 rpm, this car is going to have excellent drivability. 0-60 and quarter mile acceleration will not be exciting though, just like it is with diesels.
    2700 lb. is not a big deal if the engine is geared right. The following will provide a clue to the shape of the torque curve,
    Civic Hybrid - Dyno
    It lacks top end power because the gasoline engine it is using is a 2-valve/cylinder configuration designed to perform only in low and mid-range, and electric motors are always at their best at low engine speeds. Combine them, and the effect is a sharply falling torque curve past the mid-range, hence lower power.
    As far as tire size goes, while adequate, they are not to be confused with performance. The side-wall size would be about 5.1 inch, just as much as it is in my 2000 Civic EX (same size tires), and 0.11 inch more than that in my Accord. Rolling resistance may have been one of the criteria to choose the tire size because when it comes to Honda, they often take pride in claiming that certain change added fuel efficiency by 1 or 2%, sounds amusing at times, but then, I can feel the accomplishments that those engineers must strive for.
    As far as price premium, I think Honda has tried to narrow the gap between regular Civics and the hybrid. These are the features that are not available in Civic EX,
    ABS (optional with manual transmission, standard with auto; standard in Hybrid)
    EBD (the Hybrid becomes the second Honda in America to offer electronic brake distribution as standard equipment)
    Automatic Climate Control (you get standard a/c in EX)
    Brushed aluminum interior (something I noticed at auto show)
    Alloy wheels (an option in EX)
    Side airbags (optional in EX, standard in Hybrid)
    Besides the new technology that comes with it. I would be curious about how it does in the market too, but my guess is, quite well. I'd really consider an Accord hybrid if Honda delivers one with the 2.4 liter engine and a larger electric motor. I hope they do over next couple of years.
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    has the same performance expectations, but in this case, the conventional Civic establishes the competitive baseline and with a $3-4K price premium, the hybrid will need more than the "gee whiz" factor to capture a market. If fuel economy alone were a sufficient market encentive, the previous iterations of the HX should have been a runaway success since they did not have the cost penalty.

    Now, if Honda would upgrade the Insight with its second generation, 93hp, hybrid drive from the new Civic, they might pique my interest. Particularly if they offered a roadster version.
  • britton2britton2 Posts: 305
    to get a hybrid in 5 or 6 years - right now I am driving a '01 Corolla which I am very happy with - but gas mileage is a factor for me and the idea of getting 50 MPG sounds good - so I am waiting to see what's available in 5 or 6 years - as far as HP goes, I think that is highly over-rated - my previous car was a '86 Honda Civic which had 76 HP - I never had any problem passing anyone or getting out of anyone's way when necessary - hopefully in a few years there will be quite a few hybrids to chose from and the competition will drive down the cost -
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    unlike the hybrid, your '86 Civic didn't weigh 2700lbs. I had an '84 Civic with similar power as yours and it was adequately quick, but it only weighed 1950lbs!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,871
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    Why My Next Car Will Be A Hybrid


    Or will it??


    Hope to see you there!


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  • britton2britton2 Posts: 305
    Hmmm - I didn't know that about my Honda's weight - I guess that would play a factor - I just saw a Toyota Prius today at Walgreens - I liked the looks of it except for the tires - they looked too small - anyone else think so?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I expect Civic Hybrid to be like VW Golf TDI in performance. The Civic has 93 HP (and weighs 2700 lb.) and the Golf TDI has 90 HP (and weighs 2900 lb.). The difference is in maximum torque from the engines, but after I checked the difference in gearing between the two vehicles, the shorter gearing in Civic negates any torque disadvantage.

    That said, Civic Hybrid will be better to drive around town compared to other Civics, as long as the driver doesn't try to explore revs beyond 4500 rpm for all out acceleration. My guesstimate on 0-60 for the Civic Hybrid is 11.5s with manual transmission.
  • snaphooksnaphook Posts: 130
    I'm not sure why you believe that competition from other hybrids will drive down the cost. Competition already exists, its in the form of cheaper non-hybrids. Honda's profit margin on their hybrid Civic is probably less than on their other Civics which further reduces the likelihood of this car being discounted too heavily.

    I owned a 98' Corolla for almost 2 years and averaged close to 36mpg in mostly highway driving. I drove quite a bit, >18k miles per year. If instead I had a car that got 50mpg I would have saved about $150 a year in gas. This would have required me to keep this car 20 years to offset the $3k premium I had paid for the hybrid technology. While I agree that horsepower is overated so is paying 3k to save $150 a year. And this isn't even taking into consideration the battery replacement cost hybrid owners will incur.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    But, is it really a $3K premium? I could just as well say that it is at a $6K premium over Civic DX, but the fact is, you are getting a different car, more equipment, a new technology. Honda could have just given it a different name!
  • daysailerdaysailer Posts: 711
    Perhaps he should have said that it's AT LEAST a $3K premium.
  • britton2britton2 Posts: 305
    yes, I guess you are right about the competition already existing - I read that somewhere - that as more and more manufacturers produce hybrid cars that the cost will come down in time - about replacing the battery, the Toyota's battery in their Prius lasts for 100,000 miles - so replacement probably will not be an issue for most people - I drove my last car for 14 years and 7 months, so saving several hundred dollars on gas every year would add up...and even if it didn't save enough on gas to justify the cost difference, I'd still get one.
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