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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,702
    actually, again, to correct some wording to avoid confusion and possible useless debate, i think you mean to say "not buying the whole sales equals performance thing", because the F150 is quite "capable" of doing many things a sports sedan is not.

     

    And I only say this because I know it will turn into "FWD is capable of XYZ better than RWD" or whatever.

     

    Isn't there a topic for FWD vs RWD vs AWD, by the way??

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • igibanigiban Posts: 530
    Good thing you are not running a car co.

     

    Capability for what? T&R? Fine, go with RWD. But is that what everyone's only need to be based on? Far from it. Don't over-generalize what's the best even for those in this segment. Some go all the way to performance, some lean more on luxury, some take a blend of both. Who's to say what's the best. Not you or me but each one for their own.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "Good thing you are not running a car co."

     

    Tell that to BMW, then... they obviously don't know what they're doing, even though what I advocate is basically what they make, sedans with the emphasis on sport.

     

    When the top luxury sports sedans are named, no FWD cars or plushmobiles are on that list.... those lists are filled with M-cars and those capable of challenging them. And to challenge them, you'd better have a chassis that's up to the task of providing supercar performance, 4 doors and a pretty good level of luxury.

     

    Sorry, but nothing of the TL's and ES's ilk is going to be up to that challenge.
  • igibanigiban Posts: 530
    You think BMW's goal is really to make capable cars? No, it's simply make money, which is directly from sales. Anything else is just a means to get there. If you want to run BMW, or any co., you got to get that straight. That's why I said good thing you are not running one!

     

    I was not arguing TL being a supercar. It's not. I was just saying 'lots of people' (2nd to ES for entry luxo, but ok, ES is not a performance sedan) last year voted their wallet on TL for it's blend of sportiness and luxury. Anything wrong with these people, I think not.
  • Sup Folks,

     

    Just saw the new A6 on the street in DC and I must say I was impressed. I had read comments from posters in this and other forums, including auto rag reviews which did not sound too promising. Especially in reference to the new grill(schnoze, some call it)But after seeing the vehicle up close, the grill appears to be well integrated with the overall design, subjectively of course. However I think the previous model's tail lenses look better that the new ones. Good looking car though. Any comments?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Posts: 1,491
    i dont really know much about the a6 since ive never driven one, but looks great, i didnt like the new grille at 1st as well but grew to like it, like you said its well integrated to the whole design. the old rear end design is nice, but wont look good on the new one imo.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "You think BMW's goal is really to make capable cars? No, it's simply make money"

     

    And one isn't one used as a means get you the other? Also, using your logic they should just quit building the M cars, Cadillac should dump V, etc. They don't make enough of them to turn much, if any, of a profit, so the aura these great cars create really doesn't have any value.

     

    "I was not arguing TL being a supercar."

     

    I'm seeing people in here proclaiming the TL's superiority to other vehicles that are not only capable of reaching the supercar level, but have actually done it.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,702
    When the top luxury sports sedans are named

     

    named by who?? what list are you talking about?? Are you maybe referring to C&D's recent 10 Best? You mean that "list" of one car in each category? They don't say who else is on the list competing against it in that particular segment, but I'm sure the TL was in that group. Then again, maybe not since the TSX won "Best Sports Sedan," indicating they feel Acura is not luxurious enough. But this does bring up an interesting point. If you feel this list is indicative of what they consider "sporty" and that it is restricted to RWD for this purpose, then why did the TSX win the same award as BMW except simply lacking the "luxury" pigeonhole?

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,702
    I'm seeing people in here proclaiming the TL's superiority to other vehicles that are not only capable of reaching the supercar level, but have actually done it.

     

    please point out where this has happened. That's absurd if anyone really thinks that. Just as its absurd to think that ANY car in this category has reached the supercar level.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,731
    I bought my '05 TL for all reasons you listed as TL assets. I really liked the G35x (power and flat handling!), but more important to me than 10/10ths handling I was looking for a smoother, quiter ride with good handling. And as a New Englander/skier, RWD was not that attractive (hence I looked at the G35x. FWD has always served me well, so even with the improved traction/safety of AWD, the added weight and complexity were not appealing to me).

     

    As far as deals go (for either the G or the TL), Boston area seems the place to be! I had no trouble negotiating the TL at invoice from two different dealers.

     

    I've never driven a CTS, but was so turned off by exterior/interior style and interior materials that I knew it wasn't the car for me. While the styling may be overboard at least, like Chrysler with the new 300, they took a chance. Unlike Ford, which will still probably sell a lot of 500s to non-car people!

     

    G35 or TL? Whichever you buy, you win! Or whatever car you buy because if you bought it, it's the best. It just doesn't matter what car mags, sales figures or Edmunds Message Board "experts" say!

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • joeshanjoeshan Posts: 70
    FWIW dep't: I think the A6 looks fine even with the schnozz. I saw one in a sort of copper/pumpkin color that was beautiful. The interior was goregous, too.But boy oh boy, they are quite dear-50 large!
  • joeshanjoeshan Posts: 70
    I'm getting about the same in city (NYC) driving. But on the highway, I got about 24 mpg at 70 mph w/cruise on. I'll have to see later on, as I only have 2300 miles on the car ('04 G35X).
  • darrenwdarrenw Posts: 23
    The reason for that is :

    MPG [rsandersva] by george7777 Jan 04, 2005 (4:41 pm)

    "Am a little worried about MPG, but deal says that its controlled by computer which learns how you drive the car and makes ...

      

     Message #1416 Paint, Scratches, and Fuel Efficiency by whywhy Dec 01, 2004 (8:59 pm)

    Really pisses me off. Also, I am barely getting 17 mpg. Grrrrrrrrr By the way, still love how the car drives :-)

      

     Message #1366 Re: MPG for G35x [kudy843] by sammy2 Oct 07, 2004 (5:57 am)

    I got my G35x last month. Currently I am getting whopping 13mpg. But my drive is mostly with in ...

      

     Message #1365 MPG for G35x by kudy843 Oct 06, 2004 (1:44 pm)

    Got my G35x for 2 weeks now and it seems to take a lot more gas than I expected. My last car was ...

      

     Message #1253 Gas Mileage 2004 G35x by g35owner May 24, 2004 (1:34 pm)

    I have about 1,700 miles on my G35x. I am averageing between 17-18 mpg driving moderately agressively about 70% highway using premium fuel.

      

     Message #788 G35 Sedan Questions / Problems by adpcs Sep 22, 2003 (9:33 pm)

    I have had my G35 for about 1.5 months now, and have about 1200 miles on it.

    I have the performance ... causing the premature wear on the pads? As a result causing my gas mileage to be around the 15-16 mpg mark.

    I think that is unacceptable. My SUV gets 19 mpg in the same type of driving. 2. ...

      

     Message #714 Gas mileage by norbert444 Aug 05, 2003 (2:42 pm)

    I have experienced 17.5 to 18.9 mpg during break-in period. It was mostly city driving. The mileage kept improving with every ...

      

     Message #710 low gas mileage by garygersh2 Aug 04, 2003 (3:27 pm)

    I've never gotten more than 17 to 18 mpg in pure highway driving. Spoke to the dealer, and ...


     

    But I think I'm getting more than these folks but I'm still babying it. So dunno yet.

     

    It is a great car. My only reason for not going with other car is the look of the G. Cant stop staring at it. :)
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "please point out where this has happened. That's absurd if anyone really thinks that."

     

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?article_id=8720&secti- - on_id=15&page_number=1

     

    Hey, the 1st and 3rd place cars are none other than Cadillac CTS, the very car that the TL is supposedly "superior" to.

     

    "Just as its absurd to think that ANY car in this category has reached the supercar level."

     

    Heh, heh.... Let's change that to "It's absurd to think that a car in this category with such pedestrian underpinnings as the TL can reach anywhere near the the supercar level."

     

    I'll now repeat those that have actually done it.... those would be the CTS and 3-Series.
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    lol, I think everybody thinks that supercars are like Lamborighini, Porche, Ferrari, viper etc...

    That is the common conception. And no such a thing like VW and Mitsubishi(A company who struggle to survive) are being competed as the supercar unless its a "Super" car.

     

    This contest is like the beauty contest that I saw in Thailand when I was on vacation in 2000. Everyone thinks there's gonna be a lot of pretty girls (common conception about supercar/super beauty) but "super" actually meant a contest with a heavy (really heavy) modification. I asked one of the girl (named "ferrari") in the audience , "you are very attractive, why dont you go and compete". She said no very quickly! Real girl wont compete with these "queens"

    (Why? Because we cant keep up with the demand)

     

    Will you marry the prettiest girl of that contest? (why the sales was not good?)

     

    Guess who turned out to be a winner, a drag queen but HE was really pretty and acutally much prettier than that girl. HE just doesnt sell much in his ordinary life. Why they used the word "beauty" because they wanted to improve the non-selling queen and also beer sales(beer = mod parts/gadgets).

     

    A low grade civic/ VolksWagon VW/ Mitsubishi can be modded to achieve supercar level but thats not the point. Only a few vehicle were being competed so there is no loser among those who didnt compete(or didnt want to).

    Unless the lexus/Acura/Infiniti was in and lost, but one thing for sure nothing can beat the natural beauty.

     

    "I'll now repeat those that have actually done it.... those would be the CTS and 3-Series. "

    Nobody is saying that TL is the "super"-car, but CTS ers.

    Why you didnt say that earlier?

    Thank god :)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,316
    Well, isn't this special.

     

    Does anyone answer direct questions, or is that considered somehow inappropriate?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    eaton53 - "Proper sports sedans are driven by the rear wheels."

     

    Well, since you respect Car and Driver enough to provide a link, why not explain why they picked the FWD Acura TSX as their "Best Sports Sedan" TWO YEARS IN A ROW?

     

    eaton53 - "I'm seeing people in here proclaiming the TL's superiority to other vehicles that are not only capable of reaching the supercar level, but have actually done it."

     

    Thanks, I enjoyed your link. Someone spent $70,000 to modify a CTS-V, and it came in 1st place. I'm not sure how this answers gbrozen's question but, I'm sure that with a $70,000 budget, someone could build a TL that's a competitive "supercar."

     

    BTW, when are you going to answer gbrozen's question and show us where "people" proclaimed the TL's superiority?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    An Acura TL finished 1st in class, and 3rd overall, at the "25 hours of Thunderhill" race in Willows, CA.

     

    http://www.nasaproracing.com/enduro/25hour/2004_recap.html

     

    Some notable quotes:

     

    "The main surprise of the early hours was the strong showing of Honda-powered sedans near the top of the order."

     

    "The Honda Research Acura TL proved that four door luxury racecars are plenty competitive by blowing the doors off the E0 field and taking the final spot on the overall podium."
  • lmacmillmacmil Posts: 1,756
    ...can fit on the head of a pin? Let's argue about that for a while. Makes about as much sense as arguing which is the best entry-level luxury performance sedan.

     

    If you parse out this forum's title, you'll probably get agreement on "sedan" and perhaps on "entry level." There will be no consensus on "best", "luxury", or "performance."

     

    So, instead of trying to convince people which sedan is best (period), which is impossible, tell us which sedan was best for YOU. That may help people determine what is best for them.

     

    Carry on :-)
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "An Acura TL finished 1st in class, and 3rd overall, at the "25 hours of Thunderhill" race in Willows, CA."

     

    Did they let them drive those cars home? Anyone with the cash can buy the supercars I posted and legally drive them wherever they want... or they can go buy the AutoTrader car I linked to and get pretty darn close for less than $40K.

     

    "Car and Driver enough to provide a link, why not explain why they picked the FWD Acura TSX as their "Best Sports Sedan" TWO YEARS IN A ROW?"

     

    If you got no money, it's fine.... but the TSX couldn't make this list any more than the Subarus could. The CTS-V is #1 at both Road & Track and Automobile.

     

    "I'm not sure how this answers gbrozen's question but, I'm sure that with a $70,000 budget, someone could build a TL that's a competitive "supercar."

     

    If if's and but's were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas. Where's the CAR?

     

    "BTW, when are you going to answer gbrozen's question and show us where "people" proclaimed the TL's superiority?"

     

    No one's arguing it? Then great that it's settled, I don't have to argue it any more either.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,702
    yeah, that's great. but you really daned around that one. Were you really trying to prove that a heavily modified vehicle is better than a TL? Hey, congrats on that win, bud!

     

    did you forget the title of the topic? Apparently you did. How bout taking another look at the top of the board to remind yourself. The CTS-V, modified or not, is NOT an entry level luxo sports sedan. And, once again, NOTHING in this class is a supercar. Can it be made to perform like one with enough money? Of course. I can make a toaster beat the heck out of an M3 with enough money. But neither would fall into this category.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "How bout taking another look at the top of the board to remind yourself. The CTS-V, modified or not, is NOT an entry level luxo sports sedan."

     

    Just looked... and now you're telling me a CTS-V is not a CTS. Now that's absurd!! I suppose a 330i is also not a 3-Series? Different motor, sports packages are there also.

     

    The barrier here has been price, but I've also shown how to get a CTS-V for less than many of the cars in this topic, even provided the link, so that's out the window. But hey, when you can't compete, you deny and say it doesn't fall into the category. Utter nonsense.

     

    "Can it be made to perform like one with enough money? I can make a toaster beat the heck out of an M3 with enough money. But neither would fall into this category."

     

    Again, at the top of this category it says "CTS". The CTS-V is a CTS. You can get one for less than $40K. And to top it off, now you claim you can make a toaster perform like one with enough money, yet you produced neither the toaster, or the mythical car.

     

    Fish or cut bait... where's the CAR?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "Did they let them drive those cars home?"

     

    "Where's the CAR?"

     

    Quote from a website that townhall rules prohibit me from linking -

     

    "The team had only ninety days to prepare a stock TL to NASA Honda Challenge specifications. While the engine, drivetrain and brake system remained stock, the team augmented the TL's 3.2 liter V6 with a cold air intake, and a custom exhaust header from Prototype Racing. A large diameter exhaust, a lightweight flywheel and a performance clutch were provided by Comptech USA. The suspension was modified with custom H&R coil-overs, a Progress adjustable rear sway bar and adjustable SPC camber ball joints and links. Lightweight Enkei racing wheels and Toyo RA-1 race compound tires were used for increased grip..."

     

    That's a FWD luxury sedan with stock engine, drivetrain and brakes - and it finished 3rd in a 25-hour endurance race against Porsche's, BMW's, and Cobra's.

     

    "The CTS-V is #1 at both Road & Track and Automobile."

     

    So what's that got to do with the $33,000 CTS (3.6L) we're talking about in this forum? The Saleen Cobra is an awesome car, but does that make the V-6 Mustang your sister drives a top-notch sport coupe?

     

    Seriously, let's just leave the CTS-V (and that ridiculous, $120,000 Mallet) out of this discussion, OK?

     

    In my opinion, the TL is a fine choice in this segment for someone who wants solid 8/10ths handling, a great engine/powertrain, and top quality materials and amenities. The CTS (again in my opinion) may offer 9/10ths handling, but in a package that is larger (it has the wheelbase of a Range Rover!), short on amenities, and has sub-par material quality and polarizing styling.

     

    The bottom line is - both the Acura TL and Cadillac CTS are fine $33,000 choices. The "better" car is simply the one that possesses the characteristics that each of us value on an individual basis.

     

    To dismiss the TL because of it's FWD layout is just as absurd as dismissing the CTS because of it's unconventioanl styling. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but that doesn't make it inferior.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We've been around and around about this and as your host, I defined the vehicles that belong in this topic in this message: pat, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #1446, 19 Mar 2004 5:34 pm

     

    The CTS-V is not one of them and it generally is more expensive and of a different class than the cars we are talking about. As I noted in that message I just linked, anyone is free to find or start another comparo if this one does not suit your purposes.

     

    Note that there is only room for six vehicles in the categories you are seeing above; that's why they don't all appear there.

     

    Things are getting a little too personal here - we can disagree with each other without getting ugly about it. Let's reel in the emotion a bit please.
  • eaton53eaton53 Posts: 356
    "That's a FWD luxury sedan with stock engine, drivetrain and brakes - and it finished 3rd in a 25-hour endurance race against Porsche's, BMW's, and Cobra's."

     

    That's far different than passing all Federal standards. Sorry, your example doesn't pass muster.

     

    "Seriously, let's just leave the CTS-V out of this discussion, OK?"

     

    From every criteria I see here, it's in... I provided the under $40K price link - in fact the last new '04 at my local lealer had a $42K sticker in the windshield, certainly not out of this subject's price range.

     

    Can I help it if the others have too little performance for too much money?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    >> From every criteria I see here, it's in

     

    No it is not. I assume you were composing as I was posting.

     

    Let's move on now, thank you.
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    Can I help it if the others have too little performance for too much money?

     

    A 3.6L engine that can only produce a 255hp is too little performance? YES especially if the car cant go under 6 in 0-60

     

    Too much money?

    Try to equip all features that TL has, CTS 3.6's prices will shoot to the roof. That is why less people vote with their wallet on that car. :)
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Posts: 351
    Hate to burst your bubble, but these "tuner" cars have nothing in common with their "factory" brethren other than body stampings and some interior bits. That a Mallet Caddy with 700+ HP finished 1st has absolutely no relevance to the TL, 3-Series or its own cousin, the CTS.

     

    Please brush up on your automotive perspective. Kinda like comparing the Chevy Monte Carlo with its NASCAR 4th-cousin twice removed raced on Sunday's!!

     

    Back to reality... the TL is certainly competitive to the G, 3-Series, CTS, etc... it just offers it's own distinct interpretation of the automotive experience to suit drivers that find those characteristics to be valuable. Good thing that variation exists to please ALL of us... competition also helps to improve the lot.
  • Sup Folks,

     

    Just finished reading the Bmw write-up in the Wall St Journal today. And to me, it seems they have just placed what has been known for a while in the public domain. Issues like Styling, I-Drive, reliability and competition, namely G35 and CTS(price?)was discussed in this article. I guess bimmer fans, and passive fans like myself and of course detractors have always known this to be the case, (we've certainly debated those same issues in these forums quite a bit).

     

     I certainly did not get the impression the article was mean to inflame. It pointed out Bmw sales were up world-wide. And in 2003 it made $3.5billion in profit, more than GM, Ford, Volkswagen, and Renault combined. However it's U.S market share had dropped due to these same issues and also changing demographics.

     

    While I am passively in the market(I just paid off my 2000 Mazda Millennia S)If I decide to pull the trigger, M35sport, G35, TL and Jaguar would be my order of preference. As I pointed out earlier, while I am a passive fan, the price of the 3series and it's size simply don't do it for me.

     

    By the by, did anyone see the Car and Driver marathon this weekend on Spike TV?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Just got around to reading my January issue of Roundel.

     

    Nice letter!
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