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Comments
European delivery is a great deal, but I don't think ED prices are anywhee near 15% off MSRP. As I recall from considering a 5 series a couple of years ago, it was something like 8% off the base MSRP; all options were at full MSRP. I was able to negotiate further discounts, but you could do that with a US delivery model as well.
Really, you should tell that to all of us who do it.
As I recall from considering a 5 series a couple of years ago, it was something like 8% off the base MSRP;
You're working off the silly ED MSRP on the BMW site. You negotiate from BMW's wholesale ED invoice price. On a 330i that's 30,975. Add 750-1500 for dealer profit (most get 1000 over) and 695 for shipping (you pay this on any bmw). BMW CCA rebate = $500 for a 3 series.
all options were at full MSRP.
again, not true. Depends on the dealer. I paid invoice price on options.
I was able to negotiate further discounts, but you could do that with a US delivery model as well.
If you can negotiate over 5k off MSRP when there are not incentives on the car, god bless.
A 530i's priced at 47.5k MSRP, ED invoice price should be around 41.5k with dealer profit. A 550 is 58.5k msrp and 51k with dealer profit.
On a 550i 6-speed, I could have paid $1,500 over invoice, US or ED. The difference between those is 7-8%, not 15%. Why your dealer would discount the ED price, but not the US price, I don't know.
BMW's ED program is one of the best in the business. I am not disputing you on that. But the price difference of 15% would only be the case for a buyer that is savvy enough to negotiate a discount to ED, but so completely gullible as to pay US MSRP.
P.S. I negotiated a $10k discount on a 911 S Cab when they were still in high demand and most were being sold at or near full MSRP. So, I don't think there is a sigle BMW, short of the M5, that I couldn't get at $1,000 over US invoice with a little trying. And the M5 isn't available through ED.
The difference is 14% for a 550i. http://bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155946
ED invoice is $50,055. MSRP = 58,500. US invoice is over 54k.
Why your dealer would discount the ED price, but not the US price, I don't know.
They would discount regular price but not to ED levels. And that wouldn't help in the least with a lease. People on ED and Bimmer boards have 5 series leases for less than $500 a month (once in awhile BMW will have two year leases with residuals in the mid 70s).
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10409
You are either having severe math or comprehension problems. I said I was offered $1,500 over the respective US or ED invoice on a 550i by my dealer. He didn't care which way I went. The base prices, not including destination or options, would have been:
US = $54,000 + 1,500 = $55,500
ED = $50,045 + 1,500 = $51,555
That $3,945 difference is 7.11% of the base price. In actuality, it would have been less than 7% on a car ordered with a few thousand in options, since they are identically priced either way.
You don't need to use Voodoo economics to promote BMW ED. It is a good program that can save a savvy buyer another 7% +/-, not including travel expenses. On the lease side, you also have to consider that you will be paying for at least a month that your car is on a boat or the port.
I'm talking off MSRP. Why the blazes would I care if someone can get 1500 over US invoice on a car? That's a lousy deal. In the end that wouldn't help terribly much with a lease (some but not alot). I'm talking v. MSRP it's a 14-15% savings.
On the lease side, you also have to consider that you will be paying for at least a month that your car is on a boat or the port
You also get one month free from BMW. Add it up on a two year lease and it's a ridiculous savings. Yes, you pay a month without the car. I assume that month is covered by the BMWCCA rebate (and then some if it's a 5 series which gets a 1k rebate).
More than the monetary savings you get a chance to do things with your car that a minute fraction have ever experienced. How many people can say they've motored along on the road legally at over 140 mph? In their own car? The car that's now sitting in the garage? My god, I may find my 330i ZSP boring as all hell (which gives you a hint at my distaste for the rest of this segment) but I have the fondest memories of that car and roaring through the alps, cruising through monaco, blasting down the autostrada, gliding along the french coast and of course streaking across Germany.
For me, that will always be priceless. When I think about my stupid low lease on my car and how people are paying 550, 600, 650 for a 330i, it almost makes me like the car.
That said, habitat is accurate with the economics. The US MSRP is irrelevent. Nobody pays that. Apples to apples, ED is good for about a 7% discount on non-M cars.
I got it for a combination of things - style, luxury, sportingness, and value. It came down to the BMW and Lexus. A comparable BMW would be over $35 if I could find one equiped how I wanted (need smaller engine for economy and Nav since I drive a lot). Assuming the same type of deal, the Lexus was about $3-4k less. The Lexus just seemed like the best choice for me.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33280&d=1153751708
I wonder if in '06 the lineup will change to 325i/330i/335i or if the 1-series will take up the bottom rung. It's important to not make the people who bought 330's just a year ago rue their purchase or to leave BMW with a mass of off-lease cars selling below their residuals.
BMW seems to be working very hard at maintaining their position as a top-tier premium manufacturer while still having an attainable entry-level car. It does seems like a difficult line to walk. I think both the a3 and x-type are failed attempts in this area, as well as bmw's own 318.
dave
The 07 lineup is the 328 and 335. The 25 and 30 are dead. Pricing is already out for the 07 sedans and coupes.
No 1 series in 07. We'd be lucky to see it in 08.
BMW seems to be working very hard at maintaining their position as a top-tier premium manufacturer while still having an attainable entry-level car. It does seems like a difficult line to walk. I think both the a3 and x-type are failed attempts in this area, as well as bmw's own 318.
Agreed.
Is the Premium Package priced higher?
Too bad they retained the Bangle designs.
Can't wait the 335i vs. IS350 comparison
A "First Drive" of the coupe in MotorTrend had it listed as
EPA 20/29. I'm pretty sure those are the same numbers as my '01 225hp 330... not too bad.
Why? The 335i was a known factor over a year ago.
Well, at least BMW can say: Hey, blame Lexus, they started it.
Hmm, don't see how. The Is350 doesn't compare to even a 325i, let alone something like the 335i.
Can't wait the 335i vs. IS350 comparison
not much of a comparison. The IS350's fast and that's it.
No, the 335i was NOT a known factor a year ago. In fact, the current 06' 330i only came out a little over a year ago. The 335i rumor didn't surface until around March/April this year if my recollection is right.
Hmm, don't see how. The Is350 doesn't compare to even a 325i, let alone something like the 335i.
Exactly, the IS350 isn't comparable to the underpower 325i, the IS250 is a better candidate, both on price and performance. Oh yeah by the way, just in case you haven't figure out why BMW decided to go with the 335i after only one year into the E90 cycle: the 330i is underpowered comparing to the IS350 and G35. They need a product that's fast enough to make the 3 series a class benchmark again. Although I am not a fan of the current 3's design I'll have to say that BMW did a great job with the 335i. The twin turbo will give it the speed that it was lacking and with BMW's superior handling no doubt the 335i will the "undisputed" leader of this segment again.
not much of a comparison. The IS350's fast and that's it.
I see it as a very good comparison. Here are my predictions of the comparison.
Handling: hands down BMW
Acceleration: Draw with a slight advantage toward the IS350 (Edmund's first drive clocked the 335i coupe at 5.6 sec from 0-60. However, the sedan version no doubt will be heavier so 5.6 is probably the BEST that it'll be able to do. I predict the 0-60 time for the sedan will be around 5.7, 5.8 sec)
Interior/Luxurious: hands down Lexus
So again, we are back at the same conclusion as earlier: if you want handling, get a Bimmer; if you want Luxurious, get the Lexus.
PS. The 07' IS350 will come with the VDIM off button so it'll be interesting to see how does the comparison play out due to this factor (It's not like one can't turn off the VDIM before, they just choose to ignore it).
A coupe provides lousy space efficinency with little gain in performance/handling. If I want a space inefficient car I will stick with a nimble and light two seater instead.
You're right a comparison is wasted. Not to mention that once the mags (read:C&D) get their hands on the car and apply their proprietary algorithms to determine true 0-60 we'll be all over the map again.
Although not in the same price range, the upper end of the 3-series sedans should put to rest any concern on BMW 3 series performance.
At 40K+ neither of these cars are entry level.
Uh, I think it's been confirmed that the 335i sedan will replace the current 330i sedan for the 07's MY.
As for C&D, I can't wait to see what kind of ridiculous 0-60 time they'll have for the 335i. My first guess is: 4.9 sec. :surprise:
Your recollection is wrong. Back in June of 05 people were already talking about the turbo engine from BMW. On bimmerfest the war had already broken out between the 3.5 people and the turbo people. Everybody knew a bigger 300 HP engine was on the way for 07.
Exactly, the IS350 isn't comparable to the underpower 325i the IS250 is a better candidate, both on price and performance.
No, the IS250 is quite simply a joke. All around sad. It's slow, expensive, cannot be ordered to specific specs without great trouble and has lousy handling. The Is350 is the same. Thus, i wrote exactly what I intended, the IS350 can't even compare to a lowly e90 (or e46) 325i.
They need a product that's fast enough to make the 3 series a class benchmark again.
BMW has never been the fastest in their segment. They don't sell cars based on 0-60 times.
Acceleration: Draw with a slight advantage toward the
Again, this isn't a BMW thing. The 325i e90 on a track will devour the IS350 all day long. No need to be faster off the line if you can take a corner at a much higher rate of speed.
Interior/Luxurious: hands down Lexus
I disagree. The Lexus interior is too soft and small. It's plush, coddling and worst of all you can't see anything out of the rear windows. And you can't order it to specs.
So again, we are back at the same conclusion as earlier: if you want handling, get a Bimmer; if you want Luxurious, get the Lexus.
I believe this area is the entry level performance sedans...thus the Lexus fails for many reasons (some already mentioned):
Lack of manual - the automanual in the lexus is a piece of steaming dog vomit. It's extremely slow to react - like all automanuals. Try a double downshift at 65 mph...the automanual allows it after a several second delay.
Lack of ordering ability. you cannot order an IS350 as you desire. Talk to a lexus dealership. want it with xenons and that's it? Good luck. You have to wait and wait and Lexus may never build the car you want. You simply cannot order the car as you want it.
Maintenance - the IS350 will cost money to maintain over a 3 year lease. Not so the BMW.
BTW, turning off the VDIM won't change the loose handling, vague roadfeel, body rolls and in-general soft design of the buick-like IS350.
We are talking about the regular Joe, not a BMW ethusiast like yourself
the IS350 can't even compare to a lowly e90 (or e46) 325i
Exactly, the 325i is a joke IMO, overly priced and tremendously underpowered which makes it a excellent candidate to compare with the so-called joke IS250.
I believe this area is the entry level performance sedans...thus the Lexus fails for many reasons
Correction, this segment is called Entry-Level LUXURY Performance Sedans. A segment leader must contain both the performance and luxury. if this is simply entry peformance sedan segment then we can add cars like Mazda6, EVO, Impreza into discussion.
Lack of manual
A manual maybe a priority for you but that may not be so important to the majority. We gotta keep in mind that not everyone buys cars in this segment is an ethusiast. Many average Joe (like me) just want a car that's fast enough and feel comfortable driving it. We also don't want a manual since it's very likely we'll be stuck in traffic everyday while going to work and getting home. In fact for me the interior refinement is more important than a manual transmission.
Lack of ordering ability
My suggestion is...go to another dealer because when I bought my IS, my dealer allows special order (you'll just need to wait 3-4 months, that's it). Xenon wasn't a stand-alone option for the 06' MY and that's why you can't just get Xenon by itself. However Lexus has put the Xenon as a stand-alone option for their 07' models.
Maintenance - the IS350 will cost money to maintain over a 3 year lease. Not so the BMW.
Agree with you here. However, if I am able to afford a 40K car the regular maintenance cost really isn't a priority or anywhere near it in my decision process.
BTW, turning off the VDIM won't change the loose handling, vague roadfeel, body rolls
Have you try it before? Or have you read any review with IS350 with VDIM off before? If not what do you have to back off your statement? Even if it's an "intelligent assumption" (read: guess), let's not jump to conclusion so fast without any concrete evidence behind it.
buick-like IS350
That's "in your opinion" I assume?
It proves a point, BMW makes arguably the most sporty sedan on the planet. But most people that drive them seem to be poseurs that like automatics. BMW keeps cars in inventory for their customer base, not people that like sporty driving. My experience is that they are mutually exclusive
All the time. When i went to go look at an e90, that's all they had as a tester.
There seem to be several bmw dealers in houston. None of them have manuals? That's very odd since a CPO seach for houston shows 24 CPO'd cars on lots now. Those cars had to come from somewhere.
Anyway I'm perfectly fine with poseurs, as long as they spread the image of a non-average Joe.
So who are all the people that's buying the small 40k cars? Celebrities? You'll be suprised to see how many small 40k cars exist in the college campus and regular office parking lots. As matter of fact, now a day, regular Joe also drives Porsche. Can we say Boxster and Cayman?
Have to order....pain in the butt.....Audi anyone?
Has it been officially confirmed or is this mere rumor? (pardon my lack of knowledge since I dont frequent e90 forums as much as I used to)
link title
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158308
It's not about celebrities. It's about priorities in life. A Camry, Accord, Sonata is enough for transportation as well as a cheap SUV or wagon. Boxter is a small "sports" car. You'd hardly buy one if you are trying to live "rational". I know lot's of people with 150k+ income and they tend to drive either cars for 25k or below and don't care what they drive as long as it is sufficient for them, or they drive "sport" models that are different from average.
Luxury and sport are a way to get out of "average". You don't really need any of them in your life. But in my observations there are much more people who choose "sport" over "luxury" to stand out.
As for me - my 20k subaru is 100% enough for my life, but still I'll trade it for a 328 BMW next spring for a wider grin on my face. I've tested IS 350, but it left a soft teddy-bear feeling. IS is not a BMW contender - it's a Lincoln, Mercedes contender. BMW should fear G35 and Audi much more than Lexus.
I agree with you that IS350 is best to compare with Mercedes (definitely not Lincon, please name one Lincoln that's comparable with the IS). However, it's enevitable to compare the IS, 3, G, TL and C because they all belong in the same segment.
You have an intersting idea of what proves a point.
1) I pointed out that the manual 330 was the only e90 tester my dealer had.
2) Those cpo'd manual tranny cars had to come from somewhere. I presume the old cars were once new cars.
But, ok fine. I googled "bmw houston" clicked the first dealer (advantage BMW) searched the new 3-series inventory, and the first car listed ( a 2006 325i ) has a manual transmission.
Stock #: 844292
Vin: WBAVB13516KX50322
http://www.advantagebmwhouston.com/CFG/StandardSpecs.cfm?id_108=2006&id_107=6150- - 15&activetabcolor=cccccc&inactivetabcolor=999999&textcolor=000000&busevoiceovers- - =0
The second car on the list also has a manual transmission:
Stock #: 834020
Vin: WBABD334X6PL09064
http://www.advantagebmwhouston.com/CFG/StandardSpecs.cfm?id_108=2006&id_107=1536- - 98&activetabcolor=cccccc&inactivetabcolor=999999&textcolor=000000&busevoiceovers- - =0
Two out of two and i got bored looking.
I conclude that BMW dealers in houston do have manual transmission cars available.
dave
When I was sedan shopping a while back, I had absolutely no difficulty here in the Washington DC area test driving manual transmissioned 330i's at several dealerships. I went on no fewer that 5-6 test drives over 1-2 months, all with different cars. I even test drove a manual 330i at my small hometown dealer who had several on the lot and they only sell a total 150-200 BMW's a year.
I will say that my casual calls to get a test drive in a 550i 6-speed before I opted to get a 911 last fall was a failure. But they barely had any 550i's in stock at that time, period.
Not sure why those Houston dealers don't stock manuals, but that can't be typical of the rest of the country.
Yes. in 2003 I bought my 330i ZHP off a lot...with a manual. Helped another friend buy a 3 series off a lot a few months later with a manual.
My dealer called me when the e90 test cars showed up. They had manuals.
My current 06 e90 = manual.
Dude, your idea of AVERAGE JOE is all kinds of screwed up. Check out median household salary and median home price and then ask yourself if people in both of those are buying $40k cars.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I thought you were strictly a European Delivery guy. What happened to that 15% savings incentive in 2003?
O.K., now go back a few pages and re-read our exchange. You were adamant that ED would net you a 15% savings, compared to US MSRP. I said that the savings was 7% or less, assuming you could negotiate the same discount to MSRP on a US delivery order or car on the lot as you could on ED. You said "irrelevant". Well, that irrelevancy is exactly why you stayed put in the US in 2003. You got a great deal and the best that ED would have saved you might have been an additional 5-6%.
Not to worry, we share a lot more in common on our opinions than we don't and I've probably been guilty of arguing a point beyond relevancy myself.
There were other circumstances - emotional decisions essentially. I set foot on the lot May 22nd intent on ordering my 330i to spec. They were busy that day. I went home and thought about the ZHP I saw on the lot. The next morning I returned and asked if they had another ZHP. They did: silver gray in the back. It was untouched, the plastic still encasing the car, cardboard within the interior. We tore out the plastic and I drove the car.
They told me $400 over invoice. I did the math on 10 MSDs over the base MF buy rate. Emotions took over. I didn't want to wait for the car - I had been driving a Jetta 1.8T that I desperately wanted out of. The ED deal was attractive and would have meant several thousand dollars in savings over the lease period. But I'd have to hold onto my current Jetta - which was killing me with its awfulness.
I opted to pay more for the car I had driven and took the 330i ZHP that day. It was purely emotional and not the least bit rational.
When my lease was coming up on the 2003 I spent several months test driving the competition again. Still nobody built a car as nice as my e46 ZHP - including the 06 e90 ZSP. My 03 ZHP was not an option - a myriad of electrical and mechanical problems BMW could not fix.
Defeated, I opted to follow-through on the e90 ED lease, opting for a quick two-year lease. The cost was obscenely low, the car's still more fun than any of its competition (though a shadow of the e46 ZHP's fun) and it gave me a good excuse to go to Europe to see an ex-girlfriend and drive through Europe. The car's boring but the trip was awesome.
Perhaps by 08 BMW will have a decent, fun car available. If not, maybe the competition will have finely created something fun. Mazda's Mazdaspeed3 and Infiniti's upcoming 07 G35 look like worthy options for 08. We'll see.