Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

jrock65

"PS - How is the IS a "really lousy car"? Speed on par with the smaller engines of other brands Audi, MB, BMW, etc. You may not like the car, but calling it lousy looses you credibility."

First, the IS250 is not really "speed on par" with the 325i. It's a full second slower to 60, and that's a big difference.

Also, blueguy did say "imho" when he said that the IS250 was lousy. It's probably his opinion based on the fact that he hates sluggish and soft-handling cars, not matter how good the interior. I don't think he loses credibility just b/c of that, IMHO.

BTW, I personally don't think that the IS250 is lousy. I'd say its.... mediocre.

jzalkin

Final reply on this topic:

I understand it is an opinion (every post is), but I find it funny that so many pro BMW people can not acknowledge the benefits of the alternatives. I am not going to argue about the speed, but since most of these models are sold with the smaller engine, the masses have said that speed is not the major buying decision (my A4 had 187hp and weighed almost 4,000 pounds).

BTW - I love how BMW fans use a marketing slogan to talk about cars. The Ultimate Driving Machine is an advertising slogan and not a true assessment of a car.

Anyway - the BMW is a good car. The Lexus is a good car. The Infiniti will be a good car. All have their strengths and weaknesses. It depends on the individual buyer to determine which appeals to them. To dismiss the Lexus in the marketplace is just plain naive.

If sales remain solid and they add the IS500, coupe, and convertible then the IS will have enough models to compete with the whole line of BMW.

BMW will remain the sales leader, but with every generation Lexus, Infiniti (and Acura) are making better alternatives.

blueguydotcom

I did not say that you cared about the difference, but many people do.

I do care quite a bit about it. In fact I've got a deposit down on a Mazdaspeed3 right now and I'm trying to get my hands on a GTI 4 door. Both cars should get better mileage than that boat I drive now - 06 330i.

PS - How is the IS a "really lousy car"?

Poor handling, anemic engine, numb steering, no roadfeel, overpriced, no backseat.

There is really no lousy car in this segment

CTS, C class, IS are all cars I wouldn't own under any circumstances.

For example, what car matches the "lousy" interior of the Lexus?

Audi, BMW and Mercedes all offer nicer interiors. I go for a mix of greys, blacks and aluminum. So as far as aesthetics, every german carmaker has the IS beat hands down. Ergonomically, the Audi, Infiniti and BMW (even the jenky e90's setup) fits my desires more.

The CTS is the only car in this segment that ranks lower than the IS, IMHO. It so far missed the mark that Lexus doesn't exist for me anymore. Soft interior, soft handling, bad trannies, bad ergonomics, poor cargo/passenger space, high price, impossible to order options ala carte.

Keep in mind it's just my opinion. We all value different things.

nyccarguy

I can see you in a MazdaSpeed3, but another VW...C'mon? :confuse:

lexus_jn

In my book, the car is considered as "lousy" when it has more problems and than its competitors. In that sense, don't you think BMW 3-series suites the definition?

lexus_jn

"Audi, BMW and Mercedes all offer nicer interiors"

In my opinion, when it comes to interior design and comfort...BMW is not even ranked in the top 5 (Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, Acura, Infiniti).

msfitnetz

I test drove an 2006 audi A4 Quattro just to see the difference. nice car , yes you kind of get more for your money and does seem roomier. But I had test driven a 2003 330xi before and loved that better the handlign was soooo much nicer.
I plan to stick with my first instinct and get a BMW. Although I could go for an Audi with its great incentives, The BMW although a bit smaller ( 2003 to 2005 models I am looking at)the drive was just like I had a glove on and made to be in that seat.
I haven't driven the Acura, Lexus, Mercedes or Infiniti ( I didn't like the style of g35)so I might still be biased. IMHO

kdshapiro

"In my opinion, when it comes to interior design and comfort...BMW is not even ranked in the top 5 (Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, Acura, Infiniti)."

I agree if you want to sit in the car with the ignitition off. But if you actually have to drive the car, BMW has one of the best interiors, that actually contribute to the drivers experience, instead of detract.

maxidrive

"In my book, the car is considered as "lousy" when it has more problems and than its competitors. In that sense, don't you think BMW 3-series suites the definition?"

I'd add Infinity to my book, lousy quality! Plus awful looks, IMHO!

jrock65

"Power is far more than ample both on the road and on the racetrack, where the G35 Sport felt more at home than did either the 330i or the IS provided for comparison. One clear advantage for the G35 over the BMW or the Lexus was found in Lime Rock’s first turn, a long sweeper called Big Bend. Where the Lexus felt soft and floppy, like a bigger luxury sedan, and the BMW declined to take a set and instead leaned over, released, and leaned again, the G35 buckled down and hustled through, assisted on exit by the Sport model’s standard viscous limited-slip differential.

Track-day drivers take note: Another on-track advantage was on the backside, No Name Straight, where both the German and Japanese competition found their six-speed automatics shifting up just when you didn’t want that, mere feet before the liftoff point. The Infiniti’s five-speed automatic may just have better gearing for the course, but its manual mode allows the driver to hold a gear right up to the rev limiter, not trying to out-think the driver.

This is appreciated, too, on the open road. We’d still prefer the manual transmission (though one we drove had a pronounced gear whine in the lower rpm ranges), but Infiniti’s is an automatic that an enthusiast can live with."

http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060904/FREE/60824005/1004

habitat1

"...but Infiniti’s is an automatic that an enthusiast can live with."

Not this enthusiast. What is this BS, taking a bunch of automatic transmissioned cars to a track. If Lexus can't pony up a manual transmission for the IS350, that's their fault. No need to drop the other makes to that lowest common denominator.

Good thing Autoweek doesn't rate golf courses. They'd probably play Augusta National from the ladies tees.

blueguydotcom

I thought the same. What the hell were they doing tracking automatics?

louiswei

What the hell were they doing tracking automatics?

Because at least 75% of the buyers in this segment are automatic buyers. Face it, that's the majority. Call them poseur or whatever but the reality is there are at least 3 of them to each of the so call "enthusiast". The car makers know it and the press knows it as well.

At the end, it's about who is the most profitable and not so much about "ultimate driving machine", "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection", and "Accelerating the Future" :surprise:

blueguydotcom

Seems worthless to write a review of a tracked automatic as most automatics will never even sniff a track (DSG and SMGs excepted).

louiswei

most automatics will never even sniff a track (DSG and SMGs excepted).

It doesn't matter, just like you said, there are a lot poseurs out there. They'll like to think their automatic 3er is the "ultimate driving machine". If they like what they see from the tracking comparo they'll go out and buy it. It's good publicity for BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and etc...

I wonder how many manual 3-series and G35 have ever been on a track?

habitat1

"I wonder how many manual 3-series and G35 have ever been on a track?"

A hell of a lot more than automatics, I'm sure. The one time I went with a friend to Fridays at the Track at Summit Point Raceway, I didn't see a single automatic, and only a handful of SMG's.

Just because the majority of purchasers are not enthusiasts and buy automatics, doesn't justify a so-called "enthusiast" oriented magazine test of the ultimate track slushbox. What's next, loading up mini-vans with soccer moms and screaming kids to see who can do the fastest lap?

kernick

I believe most of the exotics now offered have automatics. Unless you're a very good professional driver, DSG-type automatics are going to be faster for a driver. It is very unlikely that a professional race driver is going to use 1 of these cars to race. These cars are sports sedans, not race-cars, and not even stock Corvettes or Porsches.

And it is not just the exotics that are going to automatics. I haven't seen it mentioned that the Mitsubishi Evolution X is going to be offered with a manual. And that will be THE best performance car next year, for under $40K.

blueguydotcom

I would not under any circumstances call a Ferrari F1 tranny or an Audi DSG a straight automatic. They have clutches, so they are in fact automated manuals. torque converters = automatics, like the garbage on the 3, IS350 and G35.

That's why I excepted the DSG, SMGs, etc. Heck, the DSG is a flat out hoot to play with in a car.

kernick

Well my definition of a manual is a transmission with a clutch-pedal. Anything else regardless of whether it has a clutch a rubber-belt (CVT), DSG, a torque converter or whatever is an automatic. They are just different variations of automatic operation. IMO, an automatic transmission is one that you don't have to intervene with, unless you want to.

In general: If a person can do anything better than a machine, it is simply a matter of time until that machine is evolved (designed) to be better. A person may enjoy shifting a manual and controlling the car in general, but more and more functions of a car can be better handled by the machine.

On the cars being discussed here, I think either transmission is acceptable. I wouldn't worry about 0.2 sec difference or whatever in "optimum launch" acceleration, when this class of vehicle is not optimized for speed anyway. The cars being discussed here are too big, too heavy, and too small of displacement (at least without forced induction) to really quibble about their performance.

I'd take the '07 G35X as the pick of the class for having adequate power combined with all-weather AWD, at a decent price.

kdshapiro

BG - I agree with you. A torque converter = automatic no matter how you slice it. While an automatic is not your cup of tea, the 4.9 0 to 60 that C&D got with the 335i, combined with probably above average gas mileage, makes the auto 335i a compelling package you have to admit.

blueguydotcom

Yeah compelling. But a DSG type tranny would make it far more enticing than a sloppy steptronic tranny.

I think I'm done with large entry-lux cars. I drove by a GTI 5 door today and thought it was a decent size in exterior dimensions. My girlfriend is pushing me to get an MX-5 RHT instead of the GTI or Mazdaspeed3.

robertr

Agree with your definition of what an automatic is. I dislike automatics (=anything without a clutch) for a number of reasons. One in particular is I like to control how and when my car shifts. I hate it when you want to accelerate suddenly with an automatic - you floor the gas - then there is a delay - then it downshifts with a big jerk - then it finally goes with more power than you want but too late when you could have finessed it with an anticipatory double-clutched smooth downshift to the proper gear with smooth throttle application in a manual. A skillfully driven stick is still much smoother and more controlled than an automatic in all driving conditions despite automatics having gotten much better in recent years. The 2007 G35 automatic rev-matching feature on downshifts is the latest interesting improvement - I wonder if it will eliminate the jerk on the downshift that I experience everytime I get a loaner when my car is in for service. Nevertheless it will be a long long time before I want to give up the fun and satisfaction of driving a true manual.

nyccarguy

Your post confuses me. You seem to support the manual transmission (a good thing). You then talk about the cars being discussed in this forum as being too big, too heavy, & with too small displacement (Less weight & more power are always good), again and excellent point.

Then you say you'd take a G35X :confuse: They only come with a slushbox & they are the heaviest of all the G35s. :confuse:

blueguydotcom

vw/audi's dsg always does aperfect rev match on those near-instant downshifts. the thing is almost arcade-ish it's so easy.

fedlawman

Automatic or manual, very few owners will take their brand new, $40,000 BMW or Infinity to a track event.

Most buyers choose automatics in this segment, and that's fine for them. It's a statement about the market in North America - and it's not an enthusiast market.

A $40,000 luxury performance sedan would not be my first choice for a track toy. I would keep it on the street and enjoy it's 8/10ths performance. For track driving, I'd pick up a clean BMW E30 or Acura Integra for about $4000, put on some RA-1's, and go learn proper car control.

blueguydotcom

I've tracked my cars. Shrug. Growing up my friends' parents would track their Porsches, BMWs, etc. What better way is there to learn about the limits of your car than by really testing them? It's a safe, controlled environment and you've got a highly trained instructor (until you're advanced) riding shotgun.

Why buy these cars if you can't exercise them as they were intended?

mz6greyghost

... it's about having more control of your car. Manuals offer that, automatics don't, plain and simple.

I'd much rather drive anything with a stick, be it a G35 or a Lotus Elise. I'd rather use a clutch, and my own choice of gear, to navigate a slippery snow-covered road, or to blast down a twisty two-lane, keeping the engine at it's optimum RPMs, to use engine braking instead of burning through brake pads, and to be able to pass someone in no time, not having to wait for the tranny to pick the right gear.

I may be part of a dying breed, but I don't care. If an automaker wants my business, then they have to offer a manual, and NOT just to their lower-level cars. That's why I'll never consider a Lexus, having the IS350 without a stick is heresy, and IMO, that's why they'll never get the praise (and $$$$) of a true enthusiast.

habitat1

If you are a dying breed, I'll be shopping for my coffin with you.

kernick

My point about these cars being discussed was that it was in this class of vehicles it is not that relevant to worry about the performance. These cars are too big, too heavy, and too small of displacement to ever really be near the tops in any performance categories. Whether a car can accelerate to 60mph in 5.5 or 5.8 or 6.0 sec really is not a significant difference. Or whether under optimal conditions you can get 5.5 sec with the manual, while you can get 5.8 sec. consistently with the auto. The same with many of the other performance categories of these cars. They are slight differences.

To some it up in a few words I'd say if you want a performance car you shouldn't be buying any of these vehicles. These are "sporty" vehicles.

The reason I pick the G35X is because I think AWD is a significant performance advantage for many in many types of weather. And I know BMW has AWD but I believe they will be significantly more $, and are down in power to the Infiniti. But neither is a Vette, Shelby-car, SRT-car, or Elise.

These entry-level luxury cars have serious compromises to provide comfort for 4, provide luxury features, keep mpg decent, while keeping the price reasonable.

kdshapiro

"These entry-level luxury cars have serious compromises to provide comfort for 4, provide luxury features, keep mpg decent, while keeping the price reasonable."

Actually said another way the aforementioned cars are one-trick ponies, they have serious compromises to make them suitable for all around use.

These entry levels provide what the aforementioned don't. Luxury (although entry level), room for four or five adults, and handling that is a cut above "common" sedans.

The fact the 3-series is the class seller is an indication that many consumers don't strictly shop dollar/hp.

kevin111

Why is it, when there is a comparison thread for sports-sedans or sports-coupes, it always seems to boil down as an auto vs. manual.

Funny thing is that the thread almost always turns into a "bash-the-automatic" thread, even though a very significant majority of the population (believe it was 90% to 10% at one point), and a significant majority of people that buy these cars lean towards autos?

Heck, went to BMW dealer a while back and had a major problem finding manuals. There were an abundance of Autos and a few SMGs.

One final comment - one positive thing for automatics is that if you are the driver of a group of friends, an auto might be better in that if you are too tired to drive, a friend can drive your car back, while the same may not be the case of a manual. Also in traffic, an auto will not wear out your left leg like a manual (at least with my experience since I own a manual).

ggesq

"The fact the 3-series is the class seller is an indication that many consumers don't strictly shop dollar/hp."

Do you mean the 3 series is leading this class in sales??

Can you paste a link to show this? How many units YTD has the 3 series sold in the US?

pat

Why is it, when there is a comparison thread for sports-sedans or sports-coupes, it always seems to boil down as an auto vs. manual.

You're right, this does happen all over the place. It speaks to the enthusiasm and adamancy of the folks who prefer to control their own gear shifts. And, for me, that's understandable. I consider myself one of that same group.

But they kicked me out when I acknowledged for myself the same thing you said. There are realistic day to day reasons that some of us, even though we really, truly would prefer to row our own, sometimes just decide to give in. For me, it's a long commute in stop and go traffic, which is mostly stop and sit, that shoved me over the edge (and out of the club, so they tell me :-)).

If I could have one car for getting to work and another to enjoy on the weekends, I'd have a manual tranny in the latter in a heartbeat. But they don't pay me enough to quite manage that .

I hear you.

kevin111

I completely agree with you. If I had the desire/justification for two cars, I could easily seeing getting a manual for the weekends and an auto for the regular day.

Since I only have one car, it is tough. I have a manual and greatly enjoy driving it, but since most of my driving is either highway (major traffic or at a constant speed) or at stoplights, my next car will probably be an auto.

If I lived where there was just curvey roads, and not much traffic, a manual would make the most sense!!

blueguydotcom

My next car has a DSG-type tranny. Faster shifts than I can pull off and it offers convenience in traffic and for times a lazy relatives/spouses/etc. might drive the car.

That said, I deal with traffic daily. No problems with my manual.

Going to drive an 07 GTI 4 door with DSG tonight as a matter of fact. My friends insist I'll hate it as much as my last drive in an 06 GTI 2 door. We'll see...

kdshapiro

"Do you mean the 3 series is leading this class in sales??"

Well actually, that is what I meant, but the 3 series is the "benchmark" for this class.

I'll see if I can find one. Google might be one way to dig up the information.

kernick

mz6: I'd rather use a clutch, and my own choice of gear, to navigate a slippery snow-covered road,

me: But with ABS pretty much standard, and stability control now being prevalent at least in these cars, if you can't shut those systems off, you've already given up much of the control to the computers. Plus there is a substantial advantage in steering and reaction time for the average driver in keeping both hands on the wheel, especially if you can have an uncontrolled situation any second.

mz6: or to blast down a twisty two-lane, keeping the engine at it's optimum RPMs

me: that would be fun; but it really isn't practical is it? On the roads I drive, I sometimes exceed the speed limits, but that is no where near fast enough to make it fun. This is "dream driving" for most of us, and not reality. You may not lose your license the first 20 or 50 times you do it, but eventually you get caught or hit something/someone in the road.

mz6: and to be able to pass someone in no time, not having to wait for the tranny to pick the right gear.

me: That can be compensated for by increasing torque and gearing. My V-8 LS-1 w/auto and performance gearing has no problem. You could try a supercharger?

kdshapiro

"me: That can be compensated for by increasing torque and gearing. My V-8 LS-1 w/auto and performance gearing has no problem. You could try a supercharger?"

You're V8 LS1 is not in this segment, probably can't carry 4 people comfortably with golf clubs and is a gas guzzling monster and after the first 1000 miles ceases to be fun to drive. I would guess a 335i coupe with a manual transmission would be a hoot to drive forever even if it isn't as fast as a vehicle with an LS1.

kdshapiro

theautochannel.com has a news section. Click through to automotive news and search for the phrase: "new vehicle sales". I looked up 2006 ytd for BMW, Infinti and Lexus:

BMW has sold about 77,000 3 series to date (all models). Infinti has sold about 39,000 G35s to date (all models). Lexus sold about 37,000 IS units to date.

ggesq

Thanks for the link. It helps to know how well these cars are selling.

It seems that of all model 3 series it seems that almost 56k units were E90 & E46 models combined (that apply in this entry level category- no coupes or convertibles).

The TL sold almost 49k units with Infiniti and Lexus following.

ggesq

"Well actually, that is what I meant, but the 3 series is the "benchmark" for this class."

haha, yes I know the slogan BMW created for its entry level luxury performance sedan

kdshapiro

I combine the sales across the different model types. It's not my issue that Acura doesn't have a coupe or convertible. Same for Infiniti. The fact that a buyer walks in and buys the convertible, the sale should be counted. This is still the entry level luxury category.

In fact I've said in the past, if you don't want to count convertibles, take the convertible sales off the competitors numbers.

kdshapiro

The official BMW slogan is the "Ultimate Driving Machine" YMMV. But generally the trade/press accepts the 3 series as the benchmark for the class.

I'm sure that's what you meant.

ggesq

Whatever way you want to combine the sales is fine. Bottom line is- BMW 3 series SEDAN sells the most in the Entry Level SEDAN" segment.

jrock65

The 3 series sedan is the best selling 4 door in this segment, no doubt.

The G35 Coupe is the best selling 2 door in this segment though. Even if you combine all of the coupe, convertible, and M3 versions of the 3 series.

YTD sales:

G35 Coupe: 14,800
325Ci, 325Ci Convertible, 330Ci, 330Ci Convertible, 328i Coupe, 335i Coupe, M3, M3 Convertible: 13,711

It's a pretty big accomplishment for a first generation model like the G35 Coupe to outsell the all of the variations of the benchmark 2 door in the class. It is by far Infiniti's biggest success ever.

They are supposedly adding a convertible version for the new G37 Coupe coming out next year.

kdshapiro

What the sales are of the 335 in few months.

blueguydotcom

I suspect the 2006 bmw coupe numbers were down as the far superior 2007 model was around the corner. I don't see many people on the bimmer boards getting M3s right now either. They're all patiently waiting for the 08 M.

My salesguy's 06 M3 arrived when my 06 330i came in and he told me he was not going to take delivery as the 07 335i was too good for far, far less money. He had already placed a new order for the 07 335i.

habitat1

kevin111 and Pat(host):

Don't worry, I am not going to turn this into a manual vs. automatic debate, we have another forum for that. But your quotes leave me a little puzzled in an entry level performance sedan forum:

"Also in traffic, an auto will not wear out your left leg like a manual (at least with my experience since I own a manual)."

"For me, it's a long commute in stop and go traffic, which is mostly stop and sit, that shoved me over the edge..."

We live in DC. There may be a handful of places in the country that can match or exceed our traffic congestion, but not more than a handful. My wife, (5'1", 105 lbs) in 30 years of driving never drove an automatic until we turned in our Isuzu Trooper 5-speed for an MDX last year. If she could have gotten a 6-speed manual in the MDX similar to the one in our TL, she would have paid extra for it. And no, she's no hot rod, but does like the direct control it provides.

If someone, for whatever reason, wants to "give up" and get an automatic, that's their perogotive and not my business. I just wish normal, healthy adults wouldn't make it sound like a manual transmission is a physical challenge. It's NOT. I'm no less frustrated sitting in bumper to bumper traffic in our MDX than I am in our TL 6-speed or 911.

As it stands, I believe the only serious mid-size performance sedan you can get with a stick is a 550i 6-speed. BMW only decided to offer a 6-speed in the M5 next year after enthusiasts vigorously lobbied and complained about the SMG. Hopefully, BMW won't read your quotes and reverse their decision.

kernick

kd: You're V8 LS1 is not in this segment, ...

me: I think you missed my point. My point was that if you really think the fraction of a sec. in changing gears (with an exceptional driver) that a manual has over an automatic, is not a big deal. If your driving requires that fraction of a sec., there are many alternatives to increase your engine power, or buy a more powerful model, to compensate.

kd: I would guess a 335i coupe with a manual transmission would be a hoot to drive forever ...

me: Not the ideal car for New England. Lets pick Boston for example. Snow and congestion; and BMW needs 2 turbos to get 300hp?

The problem with having fun with any sports or sporty car is that the speed limits are so much lower than the capability of these cars you can't really have any fun. But that's a different topic. It's so frustrating, sometimes I think I'm just going to get a Sub. Legacy wagon.

habitat1

"The problem with having fun with any sports or sporty car is that the speed limits are so much lower than the capability of these cars you can't really have any fun."

Sorry, I have to disagree with that quote as well. I had a whole lot of fun with my former $32k Honda S2000 at legal speeds. Ultra crisp handling, great short throw 6-speed, brakes that stopped on a dime. You don't need to live near Bonneville Salt Flats to enjoy driving a good sports car or sports sedan. Your statement may indeed apply to a 600+ hp, 2.2 ton, slushbox equiped $165k SL65, but not to the cars I would buy.