Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

brightness04

As for the 3-series vs. Sonata cost discussion? Are you guys serious?!!!

Well, the numbers are factually correct. It is indeed cheaper to get a 3 series than getting a Sonata. I'm making that business decision precisely because a 3 series is cheaper to keep for a couple years than a Corolla or Civic! May as well give my employees a little incentive that doesn't cost me any extra, actually saving a few pennies even after counting the trip cost, which makes the European trip tax-writable.

As for whether cost is relevent, if someone wants to disqualify TSX on cost ground, we may as well examine what the real costs are for the other entries.

blueguydotcom

Lufthansa offers 2 for 1 for ED customers. $1000 usually.

brightness04

It's a great deal for the dealers too, as ED does not come out of their allocation, and will positively influence their future allocation. Really a win-win play, so long as BMW, the carmaker itself, can make ends meet with those numbers.

blueguydotcom

I've become accustomed to not paying for anything but my car payment and tires in regard to maintenance. It's hard to fathom paying for an oil change or worse some kind of maintenance/repairs.

When I look at my BMW leases they cost me precisely my payment and new tires. I look at Edmunds' True-cost-to own and I get a good laugh.

brightness04

Thanks again for the wealth of info.

pat

Actually, the best place for this continued BMW ED conversation is the BMW European Delivery discussion that was linked previously. And I also am shaking my head at how the Sonata snuck its way in here. Thanks for your thoughts.

Folks, let's get back to the subject, please.

brightness04

Sonata first came up in post#9210:

"But as long as we're talking value here, why not consider the $23,000 Hyundai Sonata Limited?"

as a rhetoric question.

What people seldomly realize is that with lease subsidies nowadays, BMW actually are even cheaper than some of the cuss-word cheap cars.

kdshapiro

Actually, yes it would. But the article compared a Sonota $4k in damages to an Accord, eg $1000 in damages. I have first hand knowledge about getting into a front-end collision in a 3 series.

jtla

You may choose to pay destination charge, lease inception fee, and sales tax up front instead of by monthly payment, but these costs still exist. Similarly, there is travel expenses involved, even if you have one million frequent flyer miles. The bottom line is, the true monthly cost to lease a 328i for 2 yr/12k mile is approx. $370 before tax, $400 after tax.

IMHO, saying that one can lease a 328i for $277/mo with no cap cost reduction, and thus a better deal than a Sonata is like false advertising. You would need to add fine print as (1) $2,100 up front cost to cover destination charge, lease inception, and sales tax; (2) $900 in travel expenses to Munich to pick up your car. Total $3,000 divided by 24 is $125. Add that to $277 you get $402.

Speaking of ad, the deal on BMW website is $329/mo with $2,500 down payment. It includes auto transmission ($1,210 option) but only 10k miles per year (1% residual difference), the effect to payment is about a wash. The true monthly cost is about $400 before tax. My example in previous post is $400 after tax.

jtla

Sorry, didn't see louiswei's and your post earlier. This isn't really about lease or ED question. I just can't see people using misleading payment figure and compare 328i with Sonata. Anyway, I made my point, so I will just continue to enjoy reading all the fine posts on this forum.

brightness04

Destination charge, lease inception vs. maitenance cost and sales tax all exist even if you decide to buy a Sonata. The $23000 MSRP suggested included none of that. If you really want to grind through the numbers including all the ancillary numbers, here we go for Sonata with cash purchase:

Invoice +$200profit: $21,732
(remember I gave the BWM dealer $1000 profit)
Destination fee $650
7.7% sales tax: $1723
Maintenance in year1 and year2, per Edmunds: $1005
total out of pocket: $25110

Compare to leasing 328i via ED:
placing that $25110 that would have paid for the Sonata in treasury bills at 5-6% becomes at least $27684 (at 5%) after two years
Even at $300/mo (go plug in the numbers yourself),
24mo is only $6900 (BMWFS pays one monty)
Destination: $700
Lease Inception: $625
Disposal charge: $325
flight and one-night accommodation: $1000 + $150 (just to be generous)
total out of pocket: $9700

So after two years, $27684 - 9700 = $17984

Do you honestly believe that a two year old Hyundai Sonata can resell for $17984? The case is not even close. Not sure why you even bother debating me on this. Even if you tag on another $50/mo to fatten the dealer, do you believe a 2-year old Sonata can sell for $16750? The number is the same if you insist on $400/mo but wipe off the Euro trip allowance of $1150 above. Like I said, the numbers are not even close; why do you even bother to debate me on this? Frankly if you insist on $400/mo, we should recaculate and use MSRP+$5000 for the Sonata as apparently the hypothetical consumer is fond of paying more than the manufacturer suggested price.

blueguydotcom

Why are you talking lease on one and not the other? The leasing cost is one more thing that helped push me from Infiniti to BMW.

brightness04

Well, the $24000 price for Sonata was suggested by the post that brought Sonata to this forum. I have no clue what a Sonata lease is like. Is it below $292/mo with no cap reduction? and free maintenance included?

BTW, I agree with you entirely on the influence of these lease deals. I'm choosing the 328i/X3 over Corolla/Camry RAV4 for my employees based on the fabulous lease deals. That's why we have to use the least expensive way of getting a car as a measure of how much a car is really worth.

blueguydotcom

I think your math is way, way off. Just go get your employees two Mazda3s, negotiate two cars at $100 over invoice (thus avoid cap cost) and you're looking at around $200 a month per car. Maintenance on a Mazda3 is minimal - oil changes, maybe a tuneup at 20k?

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayRegionalIncentives.action

brightness04

I don't see anything about waiving cap reduction. $2000+ cap reduction works out to about $75/mo in payment. Maintenance is about $700 for the first two years according to Edmunds; that means another $25/mo. Hmm, $292/mo for a 328i or just over $300/mo for a stripped down hatchback with 100 less horsepower . . . I will take the 328i :-)

jtla

As others and the host have spoken, this is probably not a subject belongs here, so I will make it short.

I can't care less about Sonata. All I am saying is that you cannot spend all those up front money and claim it costs you $277/mo to lease a 328i. If that is the true cost to you, I would like to lease one from you. Heck, I will even let you mark up 10%.

blueguydotcom

You're totally ignoring your other costs so you can arrive at a fallacious magic number. The fact is a BMW lease is going to add on the $625 acquisition fee, 1 month payment without use of the car, cost to retrieve car and cost to replace car after only 22 months in service. These costs cannot be ignored if you're performing any real cost analysis.

Over the course of 24 months even at your fake $300 a month rate (multiplied by 23), you're looking at:

Lease cost $6900 (but only 22 months of use)
Extra cost: $625
Retrieval cost: $1200 (bare minimum as there's also transportation costs in Munich)
Tire replacement cost: $1000 (with 30k miles there's no way the car's RFTs will be in good enough shape to return the car with same shoes)

9725/22 months of use = $442 per month and the other two months you will have to pay for something else...

Add in gas expenditures too! A 328i can reasonably get 21 mpg combined using 2008 standards. 15k miles / 21 mpg = 714 gallons per year. Premium gas is at least $3 a gallon. That's $2142 per year on just gas.

blueguydotcom

lol

No kidding. Send brightness to get the cars for all of us.

brightness04

I simply answered a rhetoric question by stating that I would pick a 328i over a $24k Sonata on pure cost consideration, because leasing a 328i would cost a lot less than paying $24k for a Sonata. If you don't care about Sonata and more importantly can't be bothered with simple arithmatics, you should have thought through before accusing me of anything. 328i can be leased at sub-$300/mo without any capital reduction. Every lease comes with acquisition fee; tax, title, insurance and gas are extra for any car, lease or purchase . . . almost all cars excepting BMW's also incurr maintenance expense. There is nothing misleading about it. I don't waste my time in business where my markup is only 10%. On the other hand, BMW dealers are quite willing to fill some paperwork for you for a $1000 profit without any cutting into their allocation. The numbers I mentioned already included $1000 profit for the car dealer.

brightness04

Put my name down for your car, so BMW Munich will release the car to me :-) BTW, my regular billing rate is $200/hr.

brightness04

Where is 30k miles from in a 24mo lease with 12k/yr? There is no tire replacement necessary within the 24k miles in question. The use is 23 months as the delivery is 4 weeks for East coast, where I'm located.

$625 acquisition fee is less than the first two year's maintenance cost of a Sonata, which according to Edmund's is $1005.

Gas expenditure?? Come on, now you are really reaching. What's next? The cost of taking the girl out to dinner? ;-)

The $277/mo (should be $292/mo with MF boosted by 0.0003, pardon me on the $15/mo difference before taking into consideration the bump) was simply the monthly payment number without cap reduction and without cap increase either from rolling other items in. That's the common basis for comparing leases.

Yeah, I know it's incredulous, but the BMW lease deals really are that good! :-) I'm having a hard time believing the carmaker itself is making money on this.

blueguydotcom

ED = you make your first month's payment 2 weeks before pickup. The second month's payment is made at best while the vehicle is in transit. At best you might get 22.5 months.

Additionally, you must return leased cars with tires over a certain tread depth. I cannot recall the exact tread depth - maybe Shipo recalls. I know personally, I wouldn't be close to that depth after 24k miles - assuming any tread is left on the tires at that point!

shipo

Minimum tire tread depth for lease car returns: 5mm

My purchase of a set of winter wheels and tires paid for itself as all of my factory tires just passed the minimum, and a set of factory sized summer rubber cost more than the winter wheels and tires combined. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

hauss

Please no more! I'd rather see shipo, bgdc, and fedlawman go at it with 1487 in the 3 series vs. the world debate.

pat

This is not a leasing discussion and it's not a discussion which should keep getting hung up about Sonata costs. There are lots of leasing discussions - feel free to use the search features to find one.

We need to get back on topic.

louiswei

I don't know about you hauss, I was actually enjoying the "3-series vs. the world debate".

:P

As matter of fact, I'll start a little "3-series vs. All-other-ELLPS debate" myself. Note: this is coming from a non-enthusiast (at least not about tracking the car) and interior nut's point of view. Oh, by the way, this will also NOT be a price independent discussion.

3er vs. TL: draw
TL has the class-leading design in interior and best value in class but it's FWD. 3er has a not-so-desirable interior but is good in power and handling with the RWD advantage. This could go either way depend on how important is the FWD/RWD criteria to the buyers.

3er vs. A4: 3er
Audi A4 is outdated, underpowered and overweight. The only advantage it held over 3er is the better looking interior but that, also looks like it belongs in the last generation which the A4, uh..., is.

3er vs. CTS (current): 3er
Hands down 3er in this case. The only advantage the Caddy has is the bigger interior space but to me that is mute since we are talking about ELLPS instead of midsize sedan here. Not going to comment about the 08' CTS since it is not yet available and details are still waiting to be revealed.

3er vs. G35: G35
G35 has better value, nicer looking interior, rock-solid handling and one of the top engines in this segment. The engine does not have the "kick" that the twin-turbo 6 in the 335i has but is decent enough. With the comparable equipped G35S and 335i having a price difference around $6-8K (MSRP, let's not go to that ED discussion here again please) I'll take that over 0.5 seconds faster in 0-60 any given day. Only thing lacking in the G35 is the inferior material used inside the cabin.

3er vs. IS350: IS350
IS350 has a good interior, better in design than 3er and materials used are equally good if not better. It's engine might not be as "torquey" as the twin-turbo 6 in the low RPM region but is the only one that could hang with it in this segment. To me, I couldn't notice much difference between the 2 with the IS350 on "power ECT mode". I am pretty sure a few tenth of a second difference is there but unless one is in a drag race that is really a non-issue. The comparable equipped IS350 is about $2-3K lower than the 3er so the value factor is still there if one must. The only disadvantage for the IS350 is its more isolated steering and not-as-sharp handling.

3er vs. C-class: 3er
The current C-class is outdated, over-priced so this one goes to 3er hands down. I doubt if the new C could fair better since we know it's a M-B that means it will be over-priced. Also, even the new C350 is considered "under-powered" in today's ELLPS segment.

1487

Thanks for clearing that up!

brightness04

The factory original tires usually last between 30-35k miles for me. On the other hand the brakes wear out between 20-30k. My current car had to replace the brakes at 21k miles, at a cost of $990, an expense that would have been avoided with BMW's, regardless leasing or buying.

22.5mo vs. 23mo is only 2% difference, quite immaterial.

brightness04

Very much in agreement with your assessment on the vehicles themselves. The value issue however gets very murky nowadays. I am actually picking the 3 series over TL and G35 on pricing alone. The extra volume of TL and G35 actually would have been nice in our case, but the price is what sells. Even witout ED, the high residual and low money factor actually make the 3 series cheaper than TL and G35, or at least comparable in the case of TL. Let's not forget, over 80% of new 3 series are leased, and a vanishingly small per centage of people pay MSRP even if they buy. So the pricing issue is much trickier than just looking at MSRP.

For what it's worth, I actually did a cost analysis over 6 year period (cars more than 6 years old are crap shoots, or at least have the "luxury" and "sport" squeezed out of them). Having three brand new 3 series over 6 years beats having 1 TL, 2 TL, 3 TL or 1 G35, 2 G35, 3 G35 over the same 6 year projection hands down in dollars and cents alone. Shorter assessment periods would make BMW's margin of victory in this low-cost race even greater because the maintenance cost is paid by the manufacturer for the first 4 years.

1487

Thank you, I thought I was the only one getting tired of the ED talk. Most of us arent planning to utilize ED and could care less.

1487

Anything is preferable to this ED talk, but I think I'm done with the 3 series comparos. Since 90% of the regular posters are 3 series fans you cant present any views here other than "3 series is perfect and its competitors stink". In addition to that we have the "only the unsophisticated buyer who is unable to appreciate the 3s complete superiority would buy something else" argument. Nothing better than being insulted for not being smart enough to realize that there is only one clear choice in this class. Instead of a balanced discussion of the cars in this class this is more like a 3 series fan club forum. There has been very little positive to say about any car besides the 3 since I've been around.

shipo

Dude, if you don't like the company, find a different party, or, better yet, start your own. How about, "Cadillac CTS - Greatest car in the world" :P

bruceomega

brightness04,

" ..... The extra volume of TL and G35 ..... "

I agree on the TL, but are you saying the interior of the G35 is larger than the 3 series?

I own a 2006 3 series, and sat in the new G35 at the recent DC Auto Show.

My subjective impression is both cars are tight in the back seat (too tight for me to sit back there), but the G35 was not as spacious feeling as my 3 series in the driver's seat.

Bruce

P.S., the interior of the new G35 is greatly improved.

blueguydotcom

3 v TL - 3 without any hesitation. The TL's overweight, heavy, has abundant torque steer and is just too darn big in every dimension. Interior of the 3 far beyond the soft, blandness of the Acura.

3 v a4 - 3. The A4's overweight, suffering with FWD (unless you opt for the awful quattro system) and is severely overpriced. The A4 does offer the best interior materials and layout of any car here.

3 v. CTS. CTS is a joke, next.

3 v. G35 - 3. If the second generation had been an improvement, it might win this. Insteas the new G has a nice interior but it's cramped and the car pulls off a miraculous 3000GT-like ability to simultaneously be massive on the inside while offering pathetically cramped interior quaters. The 3.5 VQ lacks any punch and the car's weight and numb steering make it as boring to pilot as an A4/C Class.

3 v. IS350 - 3. IS350's saddled with a lackluster, slow to react transmission, numb steering, excessive body roll, heavy, too soft interior and zero rear space. Overpriced and impossible to option or order from the factory, why this car exists is beyond me. Lexus should stick to SUVs.

3 v. C - 3. C class has always been outmatched. nice enough interior - about third ranked but zero-fun suspension/chassis makes this an also ran.

circlew

"Cadillac CTS - Greatest car in the world"

What does CTS really stand for? I never really followed the STS, CTS, LSC, LS...a lot of S's.

Regards,
OW

kyfdx

When STS started it all, it was a version of the Seville..

Seville Touring Sedan

At the same time, they had the ETC

Eldorado Touring Coupe

So.. that's how it started... No telling how they justify the alphabet soup it has become..

louiswei

why this car exists is beyond me.

Because there are many other type of drivers instead of just the so-called "enthusiasts"?

:confuse:

fedlawman

"Since 90% of the regular posters are 3 series fans you cant present any views here other than "3 series is perfect and its competitors stink."

I hate to point this out, but you are the person that began the "3-series vs. the world" discussion.

During an ongoing discussion of interiors (of all of these cars), you changed the subject out of the blue and asked, "Anyone read Automobile's long term test of the 330 in the April issue?"

You then went on to state, "The car suffered some type of engine failure that had it in the shop for 5 weeks. The repair would've cost $4300 if the car wasnt under warranty. Of course they gave it 4/5 stars and said it was great anyway. I doubt that would've been the case if it wasnt a 3 series."

Finally, to make sure you would strike a chord, you added, "My thinking is nothing a BMW is capable of is ever going to be explored on public roads and I dont race my car so its pointless to pay more for a car that is equal to other models up to 8/10ths and is only superior at the limit."

That is what started the current "3-series vs. the world" discussion that you are so fed up with. The discussion for the past week has really boiled down to whether the BMW's superior performance can justify it's higher price/lower feature content vs. the competition.

You are frustrated because you think the "3-series fans" are ganging up on you. Well sorry, but you dropped in on a discussion that is focused on a very competitive group of cars, and in your very first post, you launched an attack on the one car that the vast majority of car enthusiasts and the motoring press recognize as the standard bearer. And now you're shocked and dismayed at the resistance your opinions have met!?!?

I should also point out that all has not been negative here during our discussion with you. Let me remind you of a few of my comments during the past couple of weeks:

"If you're shopping for an Auto Transmission equipped ELLPS, I think the G35 pretty much offers the best bang for the buck (HP, handling, luxury, quality, features, etc)."

"A tie between the 335i and Acura TL-S. The BMW offers RWD handling and more power, but the TL is less expensive and has more standard features. Both are outstanding sport/luxury sedans that offer a different blend of performance vs. luxury."

Sorry we were unable to turn you to the dark side. Oh well, your probably better off...

brightness04

For what it's worth, I'm not a fanatic of 3 series, nor a fanatic of much of anything . . . I tend to be a critical thinker. Regulars probably remember plenty criticism that I have levied against 3 series in the past. Historically 3 series had the following problems (IMHO, of course):

1. High cost, both acquisition and maintenance cost;
2. Underpowered for the money they charge;
3. Unreliable.

Well, BMW solved problem 1 and 2 by the deals they are offering through BMWFS. As to #3, nowadays most cars are okay for the first 24 months, so I hope :-) I'm not a fanatic of 3 series; I'm just attracted to great bargains (my wife would say, a big money waster on "penny elephants"), and a very open minded about it.

pat

Let's drop the personal comments, please.

circlew

Here's news on Consumer Ragports regarding the "Best Pick" in the ELLPS category:

Sedan, $30,000 to $40,000
Infiniti G35
Cost: $35,000 to $39,000

The G35 is available in rear-wheel-drive or all-wheel-drive.

The G35 "really blows the BMW 3-series away at its own game," said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports. "It's extremely fast - 306 horsepower, zero-to-60 in 5.4 seconds - really agile handling, great steering, reasonable amount of room inside and really easy to live with on a day-to-day basis."

Its reliability has also been excellent, Champion said, although the record for parent company Nissan has been spotty.

Regards,
OW

hauss

1487, I'm not a 3er fan myself. I still contend that if it were far and away the best choice in this class it would have far greater market share than it does. It does have the largest market share among the ELLPS (and I'm not counting the coupes and convertibles they sell just the sedans) but not by a landslide. It's more like a few percentage points. If you add up all the other ELLPS sales the 3er is not the choice of vehicle for roughly 4 out of 5 ELLPS buyers.

You just need to take your argument to them in a different way. For example, when they tell you things such as features are subjective then remind them that feel is subjective too. When the argument turns to value remind them that while a good chassis and suspension come at a cost so to do luxury features. Just as they cannot do without a certain enthusiastic ride other buyers cannot do without feature content. For everyone that likes their cars small there are those that require more size and space.

Finally, we can still argue, I think, the athleticism component too. We can easily dig up information that shows other cars besting the 3 series over the years in performance metrics such as acceleration, handling, and braking. While the 3 series usually performs well in those tests it does not always finish first in all of them.

Let's use these type of arguments to stir up the debate. I think you'll find that many people aren't all that enamored with BMW's product.

brightness04

You are certainly correct on the rear seat volume. The use I have in mind for these cars doesn't involve rear seat passengers. Being a mid-size car, G35 has significant advantage in trunk space, and especially the way it is accessed. That extra 9" car length was put to good use there. I know, it's a bit odd talking about trunk space, but hey, we all have real life requirements. If not for real life requirement, the driving enthusiasts among us would be looking at Miata or Z4 instead of a relatively porky 4-door. But, like I said, it's not a deal killer, with the discounting from BMWFS that I'd be getting, my employees will just have to put up with the occasional trunk loading difficulties, or even put some of the bigger pieces of equipment in the empty back seat for all I care; who knows, they might even be eager to do that if it means a car with the blue propeller on the hood :-)

hauss

Okay, I'll bite. My nickel (I'm counting inflation!)...

3 vs. TL - TL. 3 is too small for above average size driver, interior design is bland and ergonomics are mediocre. TL has better reliability and every day drivability.

3 vs. A4 - 3. While the A4 is more stylish in and out the 3 performs far better. Costs seem to be on par with one another when loaded up. A4 back seat is atrocious.

3 vs. CTS - 3. Current CTS interior is not up to par with avg ELLPS. CTS is more spacious but that's about it.

3 vs. G35 - G35. G35 performance is very comparable to 3 and G35 is the better value feature for feature.

3 vs. IS350 - IS350. Both are too small for the above average size driver. The 3 is the better performer however the IS350 is no slouch and has more luxury and better reliability. IS350 is more stylish, a slightly better value, and has better every day drivability also.

3 vs. C-Class - 3. Again both are too small for the above average sized driver but the 3 seems to do everything better than the C.

kdshapiro

"It does have the largest market share among the ELLPS (and I'm not counting the coupes and convertibles they sell just the sedans)"

You can't just throw away 30-50% of BMWs 3 series volume (in the US, not even worldwide) and pretend it doesn't exist in the ELLP market segment. Actually *you* can, but I don't buy it. And when you factor in the models the competition doesn't even offer in the ELLP category, one sees how much the 3 series is the leader in the entry level performance vehicle category.

hauss

If I'm not mistaken this is a sedan forum, no? So, that being the case coupes and convertibles don't count.

Entry Level Luxury Peformance Sedan forum not Entry Level Luxury Performance Vehicle forum.

circlew

To me, now that the 335 upped the power output, it is #1.

#2 G35, #3 IS350, #5 A4, #6 C350

When I go to market in 2008, this will be *MY* pecking order as far as I see it today.

The "No Show, No Go" CTS is out of the picture. Can not see the new car improved to move up *MY* list.

Regards,
OW

andres3

What if Audi introduced the S4 into the ELLPS market by lowering the MSRP by 10K?

blueguydotcom

Audi has a new A4 coming for 08 I believe. It's supposed to incorporate some of the weight loss measures seen on the stunning TT. If they can drop that pudgy beast down a good 400-500 lbs it wouldn't be underpowered when comparing HP to Weight.

habitat1

"It's supposed to incorporate some of the weight loss measures seen on the stunning TT. If they can drop that pudgy beast down a good 400-500 lbs it wouldn't be underpowered when comparing HP to Weight."

That "stunning" TT is still a fat porker in my book - nearly 3,500 lbs for that roadster compared to 2,800-2,900+/- for the S2000 and Boxster S. It actually makes the Z4 seem less overweight.

The weight loss measures Audi incorporated in the new TT would be like throwing a few deck chairs off the Queen Mary and trying to call it a speed boat.