Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

mariner7

For one, Corvette is a sports car, 335i is a sedan. Fairer comparison would be Corvette with 911 or a Ferrari. Even that wouldn't be apples to apples, because American cars have always been huge, whereas European started out tiny and got progressively larger. Porsche and Ferrari started racing cars with I4's!

BMW still builds a lightweight car, it's called 116i. The reason they don't export it here, Americans with money to burn prefer a heavyweight 335i. Thank you very much!

texases

Yep. "quiet...cocooned...isolated...luxurious" I guess that's why they dropped the "ultimate driving machine" slogan.

kdshapiro

junk. Don't know about the new model, but the old model had nothing good going for it. For those who don't need space for 4 people and luggage or can buy multiple cars, you can have the RX8/Vette/S2000. For those who need to carry 4 people and luggage and don't want to buy another car because their first car has some space deficiencies, the choice is more limited if you want more of a sporty feel.

blueguydotcom

Actually, I had an 07 Altima as a loaner for 2 days while my 06 e90 was getting its AC replaced. It's a pretty big step over the last gen Altima and definitely superior to the current Camry/Accord for driver feedback/content for the dollar.

Is it on the level of a 33k 328i? No. But it's significantly cheaper.

blueguydotcom

I guess that's why they dropped the "ultimate driving machine" slogan.

Golly, marketing slogans are always truthful. Having driven the e90 across Europe at well over 100 for hours - including ripping down the autobahn at 140+ for extended periods - I can say without hesitation that the car is isolated, cocooned and not very involving. 120 feels just like 50. The car's muted and lacks any verve. I put 1400 miles on my e90 in europe: if you want a car that handles sharply, responds to input without fuss and rarely falters in twisties, it's above reproach in this segment. If you desire excitement and edge of your seat fun...look elsewhere.

plekto

For those who don't need space for 4 people and luggage or can buy multiple cars, you can have the RX8/Vette/S2000.

Actually, the RX8 seats four people quite nicely.

My point is that they can make a car like the Altima size-wise, and keep it light. BMW and others surely could make a smaller car much lighter if they wanted to. I notice a lot of BMW drivers switching to smaller cars like the MX-5 and the WRX and so on. BMW needs that 1 series fast or they're going to lose their entire performance market in a decade.

Oh - the M model of the 1 series(not to be confused with the M1) is an absolute winner. Fast, good looking, reasonably affordable, light enough...

But not in the U.S. DUH.

papsephus

If you want to have a sports car that is feather light with high horsepower then you are going to have to modify it yourself. There are two words that prevent manufacturers from building what you want...."Industry Standards". The government is requiring more and more from manufactur in terms of industry standards, which is why the lesser expensive cars aren't so inexpensive anymore.

Remember BMW's M3 CSL? It took out all of the sound deadening meterial and all the other stuff to decrease weight, but how many of them did you see here in the US?

Now they are resorting to carbon fiber (not just BMW) to reduce weight, which is a very expensive way to do it.

louiswei

Or BMW can just make 3-series an aluminum frame like the 5er has. Of course, with the current 335i starting at around $40K one can only imaging how much an all-aluminum-frame-3er will cost...

kdshapiro

"My point is that they can make a car like the Altima size-wise, and keep it light"

The Altima (pre-07) to me is an extremely unsafe car that I would hate to get into an accident. It drove terribly, wasn't particularly reliable, and the sheet metal buckled when a leaf hit it. So yes, a light car can be made, but the compromise isn't worth it. I know this is OT, but for the RX-8 ones mans' cavernous back-seat is another mans' claustrophic trap. You can have lightweight cars, but there are very few that handle decently where there is a modicum of room for "real" family activities.

plekto

I never said the RX-8 was "cavernous". I just stated that it does fit four people. And honestly, beside kids, who carries people in the rear of their car except on the occasional trip to the airport, party, or similar one-time exception?

You don't need 3600lbs to be "safe". The old Volvo 240, which was one of the safest cars ever, barely weighed 2600lbs when it came out. By 1993, it had bulked up with airbags, ABS, and so on, but was still under 3000 lbs by a healthy margin.(2919 lbs)

The bloat is pure and simple frills like sound deadening and electronics and so on. Nothing to do with crash safety.

brightness04

The Vette ride quality improved dramaticly too in those 20 years. The new Vette is actually quite a smooth ride on highways. IMHO, the difference Tex mentioned in vette vs. 3 series is that:

1. Just like Mariner mentioned, Vette hasn't changed much in vehicle size whereas the 3 series today is bigger than 5 series of 20 years ago. In fact, the wheelbase of today's 3 series is nearly half a foot longer than the wheelbase of 5 series of 20 years ago. The Europeans are finally making American sized cars because they are no longer facing material shortage (relative to labor) like they did decades ago. The European/British sportscar tradition was literally born of a necessity after WWII when they had little natural resources but a lot of mouths to feed; they had to make something to trade for food import, turning import steel to cars was one of the solutions. That's why the value to weight ratio of those cars had to be high (becaue much of the raw material for buildings cars had to be imported too); hence very small cars at relatively high price, and "sportiness" was sold those cars.

2. Vette is a technological and engineering tour-de-force. Everything is tried to save an ounce here and an ounce there. I'm not even sure if GM makes any money on making Vette; it's the halo car for the company. On the other hand, 3 series is the main source of income for BMW. Bean-counting decisions have to be made for such a bread-and-butter car (for BMW). For example, making the body shell out of aluminum or fiber/graphite composite material instead of good old heavy steel sheet metal is simply out of question for the regular 3 series.

brightness04

Mazda 3 sedan/wagon would make for a decent sporty car that is light (2700-2900lbs) and enough room for four. However, by the time Volvo has done building ELLS on the same platform to produce S40/V50, the car weighs 3200-3300lbs, and has squeezed out much of the sportiness. It may have something to do with what consumers demand in entry level luxury cars. Personally, I would not buy any car weighing less than 3300lbs, preferrably 3600+lbs, simply because that's the weight of an average decade-old Jeep Cherokee that a lot of high school kids learning to drive are driving. I wouldn't want to place my family in anything weighing much less than what the most accident-prone population is driving.

circlew

KD, agreed. The Altima is out if you want real safety and real performance. It really depends on the level that you expect and the balance delivered.

The weight issue can be debated up and down the food chain regarding vehicle hierarchy. Sports cars are sports cars and ELLPS are what they are as well. If there are 4 people in say an RX-8, you can not drive at 10/10ths, agreed?

If one wants true performance in this segment at this point, the 3'er looks to me as where it's at! (IMHO) Hefty? Perhaps. Alternative? Debatable.

Regards,
OW

circlew

I agree with your assessment regarding the minimum weight desired and defensive safety for the family. I believe this is why even today the 3'er is a notch ahead of the pack here. You get a higher level of performance with good safety at the expense of about 6 months of Big Macs under the belt!

Put another way, sub 3K lbs. (1,360 Kg.) in Europe was OK when most cars were predominantly under that anyway. Even there the cars are plumping up so pure sports setups are more custom than what you can get stock as was more prevalent in the past.

I say we draft a law that allows teenyboppers to only drive Smart Cars until they hit, say, 30!! You can't hurt a squirrel with one of those!

Regards,
OW

blueguydotcom

The Altima is out if you want real safety and real performance. It really depends on the level that you expect and the balance delivered.

That's total supposition.

You guys are really hung up on archaic notions of safety. Weight does not = safety. Talk about 1970s thinking. Race cars prove time and again that you can have a supremely light vehicle that provides insane levels of protection (200+ mph into concrete walls).

Weight = enemy of fun,.
Weight does not = safety.

I'd much rather be in a head-on accident in an e46 3 series than a 1969 Caprice Classic. Yet the ole Caprice outweighs the 3 series by probably 1k lbs.

circlew

I agree weight does not = safety. Strength and engineering matter way more. I'd rater be in my e90 than an e46 or the Altima in a head-on. Better engineering DESPITE the added weight is all I am saying.

Agree on the fun = less weight.

Regards,
OW

ggesq

For kicks, I went to the NHTSA site to compare a FWD TL to a RWD 3er and both had the same exact rollover, static stability and dynamic test results.

circlew

I was wondering about the other 2007 ELLPS candidates safety ratings. I checked the others and they were all 4 - 5 Star rating except the G35 and IS250/350 which were not rated for 2006 or 2007.

The 2007 Altima, by the way, rated one of the highest ratings against these cars in all the rated categories. The 3.5 SE sedan weighs in @ 3,294 lbs. vs. 3,340 lbs. for the 328 sedan, both manual.

So, both of these 2 cars are safe but are a little hefty if you want maximum sporting. The trick will be to reduce 300 lbs off the weight and maintain the excellent crash data.

BGDC, perhaps I spoke to soon. Here is your E36 head-on result with a truck @ 60 MPH...4 passengers, no one seriously injured.





Regards,
OW

texases

You need to post these over on the "project cars" :P

mariner7

brightness, it's unfair to compare Vette with any of the Bimmers. Any Bimmer has lots of natural rivals. If it skims on creature comforts, it'll lose sales to MB or any number of makes. Most Bimmers are everyday car, their owners expect all the things that go with that.

Vette is an icon, sort of w/o natural rivals. I guess the car closest in iconic status is 911. GM has a lot more leeway in designing Vette, because of lack of natural rivals. Plus Vette is a toy, not everyday car, to many of its owners, so they don't mind if it lacks many creature comforts, or if the suspension is real uncomfy!

Now that new M3 has a V8, I wouldn't bet on the Vette when the 2 meet on a race course.

circlew

Now that new M3 has a V8, I wouldn't bet on the Vette when the 2 meet on a race course.

If it's the big brother, I would. But not yet. End of this year for the new M.

Regards,
OW

ivan_99

Weight.

As I start my diet I have a perspective on this...

Lighter weight is better; for performance, handling, mileage etc. If luxury buyers prefer the long floaty feel of a heavy vehicle you can engineer that in a light vehicle...but really why would you want to.

Also, almost as important as light weight is weight distribution. 30/70 (or 70/30) on a 2800 lbs car is not my idea of a good time. I recall driving the prev gen A6 in FWD and AWD; the AWD handled better even thought it was heavier.

Stacking extra thick glass and huge expansive sunroofs also decrease the “fun factor”, even if the automobile is sub 3000 lbs.

Since the rx-8 was already mentioned here I think that is a good example of a vehicle properly balanced with relatively low weight (for the times) centered in the vehicle and being low to the ground; Cayman also comes to mind.

This of course is all relative because even though I desire the light/low/balanced vehicle the Lotus has never been a desire of mine.

plekto

http://www.arielatom.com/?gclid=CMfV0LiFuYsCFQtpGAodbne21w

This would be something that I would desire. The original is from the U.K., where it's street legal. As fast as a Enzo. $35-40K.

kdshapiro

I disagree somewhat. Race cars have roll cages, which street cars do not. Without roll cages, race car drivers would have almost no chance of surviving an accident.

An Altima, IMO, is not a very safe car from what things I have seen first hand, plus it's not a great handler. While there are enough of them on the road, you could not get me to buy one.

That point is, what is a person to buy who desires real room for four, not claustrophobic room like the RX8 and decent handling. The options are limited for sure.

texases

That's my problem. I'd like a car in this class, but have a 6'2" son and clients to put (not at the same time!) in the back seat. The 330, G35, IS, and current CTS don't cut it. I'm hoping for better things with the new CTS, but I'm not betting on it. The 'four-door coupe' trend is making rear seats unusable.

circlew

Interesting C&D comparo with the same result as in the past.

Bottom Line:

Spending other people’s money is easy, and the BMW definitely demands more. But nothing in our testing indicates that it isn’t worth it. The G35 scores points for comfort, capable mov es, and thrust in surplus, but BMW still builds the best tools for driving.

link title

Regards,
OW

scottmsimpson

I need to replace our 99 Acura 2.3 CL 5 speed.
I want to keep the price at or below 30K.
We have other cars. This is basically a commute car, and short trips with the kids. I want something sporty and fun, with manual tranmission, and econonical to own and operate.
Don't need a 4 door, but not many 2 door choices left.
My short list so far is, probably in this order:
Acura TSX 6 speed
Mazdaspeed 6
Subaru Legacy GT
Mazda 6s 6 speed
Volvo S40 T5 AWD
Accord Coupe EX 6 speed
Audi A4 and BMW 3 are great cars, but I don't want to spend that much. Also not going to buy a car with no spare and no dipstick (BMW E90/92).
If I could convince the wife, a used E46 BMW would be on my list. She wants to buy new, since we both drive this vehicle to work (she's a nurse, night shifts), and put on at least 15k per year.
I haven't driven anything yet, cold, snowy weather here in Wisconsin. The AWD would be nice, but I can live without it.
Any opinions on the above?

tayl0rd

Acura TSX = 4-door
Mazdaspeed 6 = More than $30K
Subaru Legacy GT = More than $30K and not so fun to drive
Mazda 6s = 4-door
Volvo S40 T5 AWD = 4-door, probably over $30K, and not so fun to drive
Accord Coupe EX = not so fun to drive (especially if it's the 4 banger)

Just off the top of my head:
Most viable options, based on your wants = Honda Civic Si coupe, Scion tC, and maybe the Mitsubishi Eclipse and Hyundai Tiburon.
Other options would be Mazdaspeed 3, Subaru Imprezza WRX, and the upcoming Mitsubishi Lancer (not the EVO) but they all have 4 doors.

kyfdx

VW GTI or Jetta GLI? I think either of those would be more fun..

They both use premium fuel (as does most of your list), and might only be economical as long as you are in warranty, though..

EDIT: Oops.. I'm off topic, again.. Sorry, Pat.

kdshapiro

Out of all the vehicles on your list, if you buy new the Accord coupe IMO will meet your needs the best. That's the one I would get. You didn't say if luxury is the absolute criteria though.

ggesq

"I want something sporty and fun, with manual tranmission, and econonical to own and operate."

From your short list, I would choose the TSX. It does require 91 octane or higher though.

Have you considered the IS250?

circlew

KD, agree. For night shifts, you want the wife to have reliability. Scott, my vote is the Accord. My nephew just got a 2005 and he loves it.

Regards.
OW

louiswei

Agree with the TSX.

I think right now is the best time to buy a TSX or Accord if one doesn't care about getting an end-of-life-cycle model. One should be able to get great deals for both the TSX and Accord.

I remember he said he doesn't want to spend over $30K so that eliminates the IS250.

jblaze13

What you left out is how space can relate to safety. The use of crumple zones and space in the engine compartment is very relative to safety. The Altima is....more spacious than most ELLPS(not that it is in this category). I saw a comment in another post about how the metal folds...well..that's what it is designed to do. Engineers learned some time ago that it was safer for the occupants if there was more "give" in specific parts of the vehicle. I know your wrong about the Altima being unsafe. My wife and son came out unscathed in their crash in the Altima we used to own.

kdshapiro

"I know your wrong about the Altima being unsafe. My wife and son came out unscathed in their crash in the Altima we used to own."

Neighbor had just the opposite experience in a low speed crash. Was really surprised the car didn't protect him better.

rockylee

Comparing a car with the features and content of Chevy's, Chryslers, Toyota's, is really a embarassment to the Hyundai, name. :confuse: The Genesis, will out-lux and will probably out perform most if not all the cars mentioned on this board. However, I might be best to start a discussion involving the Genesis vs BMW 5 series & Mercedes E-Class, etc in the near future to not disturb this one with a non lux emblem like Hyundai. Maybe someday it will be mentioned in the same breath as the others if those lux brands are still in business ?

Just wanted to get a opinion from y'all is all not turn it into a brawl.

Rocky

pat

Rocky, the Genesis is being discussed in the Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison discussion as well as in its very own topic in Future Vehicles. This is not the right place. If anyone here wants to talk about it, I'm sure they will be participating in one or both of those topics.

P.S. Using the search features on the left is usually very helpful in finding the right place for what's on your mind.

scottmsimpson

Thanks for the inputs. Let me define my requirements a bit more. We were planning to keep the CL for 2-3 years, then let our kids use it. At that point, I could justify a two seater, like a Cayman. Well, that plan was shot when I crashed the CL, resulting in total loss, due to airbags going off. So, need to buy a new car in the next 2-3 weeks.
I do want a "nice" car, as I do take monthly 100 mile trips to Madison and Chicago. We will keep this car for several years. On top of the normal features, The things on the CL and our Villager I particularly like are Homelink and Auto Climate control, and one feature I think every car should have, but only our Villager has, is auto on/off headlamps. Not DRL's, which I do not like, but entire lighting system turns on when it's dark. I also don't like doors that automatically lock.
The smaller cars suggested are not on my radar; too small, too 'cheap' for our needs. I don't think one can get Homelink and auto climate on Mazda 3's, Eclipses, etc. I'm not so keen on VW's, spotty reliability record of late. The TSX has every lux feature we would need. Only negative is less power compared with the turbos and V6's in others. I think one could deal on a MS 6 and Legacy to get one under $30K. IS250 is definetly way over $30, closer to $35. I can afford that, but can't justify spending that much on a daily driver.
I'd look at A4's and 328's for that dollar amount, but they would probably be strippers.
As suggested, the TSX and Accord are near end of life cycle, so may deal better. As soon as this April blizzard passes, I'll get to driving these vehicles.

kdshapiro

"I don't think one can get Homelink and auto climate on Mazda 3's,"

But you can get them on the Accord.

blueguydotcom

Climate control on the mazda3. What the hell do you need homelink for? Just buy another garage door opener for $50.

fedlawman

Speed wise, the TSX is comparable to the V-6 Mazda6, but the Legacy GT or MazdaSpeed6.

You can probably pick up a MS6 for under $30K right now, but I don't know about the Legacy GT. Both will spiral down in resale value as soon as you drive off the lot.

The TSX has BMW-like resale strength, Honda quality, Acura luxury, and Mazda6 performance for about $26K.

louiswei

What the hell do you need homelink for?

How about I don't like anything hanging on my visors?

blueguydotcom

Good grief. My fiancee wanted homelink setup on her Audi. I handed her the manual and told her I'd follow her instructions (if it were anyone else I would have pointed to the manual and walked away). Needless to say the Cal grad took far more time than I expected to set up her homelink. She's delighted with it though; I still don't see the point. We now have 3 door openers and 2 of them are in a basket in the house. :confuse:

Like laser cruise and sunshades, I can't fathom the need to have my car trigger the door opener.

louiswei

Needless to say the Cal grad took far more time than I expected to set up her homelink.

Took this GT grad less than 3 minutes to set up my homelink. The manual is easy enough to follow step-by-step.

imidazol97

Same for this MU grad>

jblaze13

Sorry about your neighbor but that doesn't prove a point.

plekto

I have the perfect solution.

Since a Cayman(which I adore, btw) is a chunk of money, you want to save every penny that you can until then. You are the perfect poster-child for a three year lease.(with one exception - see below)

A 2007 Cadillac CTS can be had for $299 a month.
The BMW 328i is ~$399 a month, give or take.(yes both deals are insanely low - someone's losing money somewhere)
You can also get an Audi A4 for $299 a month - or at least that's what the local dealer has on the car window.

There are some insane lease deals out there on cars right now.(let alone things like $189 a month on an Accord/WV/etc - all about the same)

Go cheap, save your pennies. Then get the Cayman.

*The exception is to buy a Mini. It suffers about $1000 a year in depreciation, due to silly pent-up demand and cult-like status. The new one fits 2 kids in the rear well enough(even two car seats!) Of course, buy a base model with little on it to maximize your return/minimize accessory value loss)

blueguydotcom

Most of those lease deals require money down to pay down the cap cost. Every $1000 drops the payment by about $15-17.

Also most require an acquisiton cost (usually over $495) and a return fee ($250 and up). All the fees add up. Leases can be a good deal but they can also devour you slowly if you're not careful. Most people leasing never bother to learn the lease money factors/residuals or how all of that plays into the lease rate.

I know far too many people who lease by asking for "the deal." Break down the numbers on the advertised deal and it's better to just find out the MF and the negotiate your sale price as you would with any car purchase. Even then, it may not be a very good deal.

If he has frequent flyer miles, then european delivery on a stripped 328i is about the best deal you can get (you aren't paying for 13-14% of the depreciation) for a lease. Add in the BMWCCA rebate and it gets a tad sweeter. Then again, a 328i via ED purchased = tremendous savings too. Essentially you dodge 50% of the first year of depreciation.

kdshapiro

I am with you, all my cars have Homelink. Goes to show you, one man's must have electronic gadget, is another man's useless toy.

kdshapiro

Thanks. In my mind the point is, I use references such as CR/NHTSA/IIHS/the mags as a guide, but I like first hand experiences and test drivers. And this is a first hand experience. In my mind the Altima is a sub-par car to the competition and this only proved it in my mind. Even in it's latest incarnation, it is now where the now outgoing Accord was.

It really doesn't matter if I'm "right", I'm not sure there is a "right", but it means Nissan will not get my dollars (not that they care).