Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1183184186188189582

Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Let's all play 3er"."

    I don't think anybody is saying that, and as shipo pointed out, other competitors in this segment manage to offer a manual tranny.

    "However, if one is looking for an alternative in the "Entry-level Luxury Performance Sedan" market segment then the IS is one of the best options out there."

    What? By whose yardstick? Let me bring out a point the G35 folks have been saying for a while...You can get a baseline G35 out the door for about $30 large (with a manual tranny), which will wipe the streets at the price point. Yeah the IS350 might be faster, or not, but you have to spend $10K more to get it. For the people who value function over form, this is the holy grail of cars.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Did I say ES350 belongs in this discussion? Not that I recalled. I was stating Lexus has two entry luxury sedans (note: no performance) that are aiming for different market demographic. That's all.

    However, we've got to give Lexus some credit about selling those "camry" at $40+k and people are stilling buying it left and right huh?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "However, we've got to give Lexus some credit about selling those "camry" at $40+k and people are stilling buying it left and right huh?"

    I agree, if people can buy an overpriced $40K CAMRY, then what is the issue about buying an overpriced IS350 and overpriced 3 series?

    I disagree about lexus having two entry level sedans, one of them is an entry level performance sedan. The two of them are not aimed at the same market. Not even Lexus is that stupid to market to different cars on the same platform to the same demographic.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So you are comparing the outgoing generation G35's price to the newly just re-designed IS. Very slick. How the *beep* is the IS going to cost 10 grand more than the G35? I assume that the 30 grand you were talking about is the base model. Let me tell ya, you can get a base IS350 with 35 grand period. Case closed.

    Let's stay tuned to see if the new G35 will be going out the door for about 30 grand like you said this coming November.

    Apples to apples people!!
  • seltzseltz Posts: 10
    Entertaining discussion...I guess. I don't understand how you can possibly NOT think IS and 3-series should be compared. (Actually, by arguing, you ARE comparing them, aren't you?). Just about every auto magazine compares them. They naturally compete for the same dollars. So, why not compare them? The term "sports sedan" is nothing more than marketing. A Mazda6 is a "sports sedan." Bottom line: these cars (along with G35, A4, etc.) are cross-shopped and therefore it's perfectly appropriate to compare them. Each one offers a different take on price vs. performance vs. luxury equation, but they are all more similar than different. Geez.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    great respect for Lexus, They have the marketing thing down for the mass majority of people, ie don't care about driving dynamics, or a stick. That said, I gotta agree with Shipo here. All the big talk from Lexus about how it's got the 3 series in it's sights and so on and so forth, and then to come out with a car that is unable to turn off traction control, and not have a stick, well the joke is on Lexus since they clearly know nothing about the soul of a "drivers car" which is why they targeted BMW in the first place. Nobody is calling Infiniti a joke, they for the most part get it. Audi for sure get's it IMO. Lexus does not. Kind of funny [see joke] IMO.
    Now the Lexus is a looker, and they are obviously classy cars. But no competition. It almost can't be considered sport IMO. The Audi has no back seat either, but they get the sport thing. If Lexus brought the driving dynamics, and the stick nobody would be saying a thing about the friggen back seat.....End of rant, good night now
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    1) Is the Lexus IS large enough to be USED as a sedan on a regular basis?

    No. I'm only 145 lbs and five-seven and I can't fit comfortably in the backseat of the IS350 with the front seat in my normal driving position (which is closer to the wheel than most as performance driving instructors suggest a position that's far less relaxed than most people use).

    2) Does a small sedan qualify for the "Performance" moniker if it only offers a manual transmission on its most anemic engine?

    No. I wanted the IS350 as a replacement for my BMW ZHP. I was frothing at the mouth when they announced the car. Finally, someone would tackle BMW and I could get away from a brand I loathe. No manual = supreme boredom. A bad automanual - like the IS350's - makes driving not just boring but annoying. The double and triple downshift lag is unforgivable.

    3) Based upon the pre-release Lexus marketing hype along with the pre-release rhetoric from Lexus management about the IS being a true 3-Series competitor, "Has the IS lived up to its pre-release billing or is it something of a joke?"

    Doesn't even come close to what Lexus promised in 2005 at the NYIAS. The Lexus execs lied. They claimed the IS would lead not only in luxury but performance. They claimed the car was designed to be the best-in-class in all categories. They lied. The handling, the tranny and the interior space don't even come close to the G35 or 3 series. The pricing structure and packaging makes the car ludicrously difficult to purchase with a sport package and xenon lights.

    My drives in the IS350 left me deliriously unhappy. Failing in every way - save for wizzbang gadgets - all the criteria important to me were left out of the IS: driving involvement, roadfeel, handling, packaging, etc.

    Lexus lied.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Dear god, you don't read too well do you? Let me post it again:

    Did I say ES350 belongs in this discussion? Not that I recalled. I was stating Lexus has two entry luxury sedans (note: no performance) that are aiming for different market demographic. That's all.

    Okay, so Lexus doesn't have 2 entry level sedans. One is entry level performance and what's the other one? :confuse:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I assume that the 30 grand you were talking about is the base model. Let me tell ya, you can get a base IS350 with 35 grand period. Case closed.

    Not with sport package. The manual G35 comes with the sport suspension standard. Ditto xenons.

    To get an IS350 with sport and xenons you're looking at nearly 40k.

    Say a 5k difference. Does that make you happy? Kinda funny the 4 year old G35 outperforms Lexus' brand new IS350. Relentless pursuit of perfection? Hardly.

    Let's stay tuned to see if the new G35 will be going out the door for about 30 grand like you said this coming November.

    I would be shocked to see the base G35 manual go for more than 34k. We'll see.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    one offers a different take on price vs. performance vs. luxury equation

    Bingo!!

    IS is comparable to 3er and they are in the same market segment but is definitely not a 3er with different sheetmetal and Lexus logo.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Actually, it's now the "passionate pursuit..."
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "So you are comparing the outgoing generation G35's price to the newly just re-designed IS."

    Exactly what G35 model would you like me to compare to IS.

    You can get a G35 stripper for $28K out the door. The IS350 stripper, if you can get it, is still $7K more expensive.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Still, you are comparing the outgoing generation G35's price to the newly just re-designed IS. Period.

    We'll see if you can get a stripped 07' G35 for $28K this coming November.

    Apples to apples, peops...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Still, you are comparing the outgoing generation G35's price to the newly just re-designed IS. Period."

    I'll repeat, exactly what G35 would you like to compare to. There is only one you can buy. Period. The price is the price. Apples to apples. My guess is Infiniti will still sell the base model at a very low price point. So they will be leader on price and performance per $$$. Lexus will be the leader on luxury. BMW will be the leader in sport.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The 06' G35 are selling almost to 1 grand below invoice because the totally redesigned 07' are just around the corner. Do you really believe that when the 07's arrive this November they will be going out the door at 1 grand below invoice? NO. The first couple months they'll be sell at sticker and after that they'll be SLIGHTLY discounted like the current IS does. That's my point.

    Just watch, I estimate Infiniti will price the G35 at $34.5K MSRP. A 2 grand increase from the current model.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    the first couple months they'll be sell at sticker and after that they'll be SLIGHTLY discounted like the current IS does. That's my point.

    On what planet? The G35 was selling below MSRP on the day it went on sale. I know because I accompanied a friend who bought a 2003 on the first day the G35 was available. Sure it was only $600 below MSRP but that's still a discount.

    This reminds me of the yahoos saying the BMW 335i won't sell below MSRP yet we've already seen people getting them for $1250 over invoice at Bimmerfest. Shop around...just because one dealer says MSRP, another will see a sale.

    Just watch, I estimate Infiniti will price the G35 at $34.5K MSRP. A 2 grand increase from the current model.

    And that'd still be markedly cheaper than an IS350 with sport and xenons. 5k cheaper.
  • ctlctl Posts: 123
    Just stop for a moment imperson urself an ultimate sportier, who look down to anyone not driving a manual, not care much about "feeling connected to the bumpy road", not care if the car is the "ultimate" sporty (get out of the fish bowl, it is just a 40K little league), and do care about having a little comfort/luxury. Lexus carve out a version they think some people will like and buy, what is so much to hate or be afraid?

    If you are the lead in lexus division, why copy the 3 and dog fight for the same pie? as long as it fits plenty of people's need and make sales for the shareholder, this is not an olympics.

    "lexus ceo lied! they lied!" for crying out loud, it is marketing, just like bimmer told u that they are the "ultimate". Darn it, I am the world champion if I run 100m in the elementary school league.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    http://infiniti.com/g_sedan/models.html

    Infinti G35 starts at $31,200. Still $5K cheaper than the IS350. They are not going to raise the base price by $3,000, more probably by under a thousand. Still makes it $4K cheaper than the IS350 and will probably de-throne the 335 and IS350 at the stop light.

    I don't know if this car is for you, but you can't take away the performance per dollar Infiniti brings to the table.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Don't forget the sport suspension and xenons are standard on the 31k, G35 6MT. Moonroof's 1.1k. So 32.3k for a G35.

    Put xenons, 18s and a sport suspension on an IS350 and you're at $39,700.

    7400 difference! :surprise:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Exactly!!

    Lexus created the IS to give customers another option in this market segment and if IS is not your cup of tea then stick with BMW by all means.

    I wonder what do the Ferrari owners think when they saw the "ultimate driving machine" commercial...
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yeah, blueguy, if that makes you feel better, by all means. You don't need to convice me.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    No. Why should I?

    The current G35 is cheaper than the IS. That's the truth. So what's your point here?

    However, I don't agree with the 1 grand increment. I am sticking with my figure at $34.5K. It's pointless to argue about 07' G35's price now. How about we all make estimation and we'll see in a couple months?

    Like I said, my guess is 34.5 Grand.
  • jzalkinjzalkin Posts: 56
    1) Is the Lexus IS large enough to be USED as a sedan on a regular basis?
    Yes. Most of these cars suck if you have 4 full size adults that need to use the seat often. For me the IS works fine. Just had two coworkers in there today - no complaints. One couldn't shut up about how great the car is.

    2) Does a small sedan qualify for the "Performance" moniker if it only offers a manual transmission on its most anemic engine?
    Yes, in my book since I would not buy a manual. Fast is fast however it gets there. My A4 had zero gears (CVT) and I would say that it was a performance sedan. It comes in a manual, but why would I care since I would not by one.

    Is the SLR not a sports car? It only comes in an automatic.

    3) Based upon the pre-release Lexus marketing hype along with the pre-release rhetoric from Lexus management about the IS being a true 3-Series competitor, "Has the IS lived up to its pre-release billing or is it something of a joke?"
    I came down to the BMW and Lexus and chose the Lexus. Others have crossed shoped so - yes it is.
  • jzalkinjzalkin Posts: 56
    Here it is. I will call you out as an idiot and you will be ridiculed by all if you argue against the basic points.

    Point 1: All of these cars (3 series, IS, G35, C Class, CTS, TL) belong in this group. Some are newer and some are getting long in the tooth, but they all are competition. If a lot off people cross shop a model then it IS competition. If only a few then it is not. I bet almost everyone looked at a few of these model before selecting their car.

    Point 2: Different is good. It leads to choices and ability to get the best fit for them. Some difference help and some hurt. Sales will determine if a model is a success.

    Point 3: Just because YOU want a feature - does not make it the end all be all definition. Just because you think a car should have a manual does not mean everyone else does. Just because the TL is not RWD, does not mean it does not belong. Get over yourself - you are not the resident expert. You are just like the rest of us posting nothing more than your OPINION. If you will only drive a manual then I guess that matters to YOU. Since the vast majority of people (BMW buyers included) do not drive a manual - that is not a criteria for selection. I could not see anyone saying "I want an automatic, but I won't look at the IS since the 350 does not offer a manual." Does anyone else see the absurdity of this argument?

    Point 4: Berating others is childish just makes you look like and idiot. Enough said.

    Point 5: No one car is the overall best. One may be best given certain criteria, but another criteria will put another car on top.

    -----------
    I picked the IS for me. Came down to the BMW and I just didn't like it as much. I had the A4 and just didn't love the BMW with i-drive (Nav) in it.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Couldn't say it better myself. :)

    I too picked the IS over the 3er. Was also considering the TL (die hard Acura fan here), however, it is just too big for my taste. Love the handling of the 3er but its ugly interior and IS's superior engine ultimately made me choose the IS over it.
  • 1) Is the Lexus IS large enough to be USED as a sedan on a regular basis?

    Absolutely. I am 6 feet tall. I have a 3 year old and a 1 year old. About two or three times a week I hva ethem in my car and they fit fine. We atually went on a 3hr roadtrip and we perefectly fine. And actually last night at a party me and my coworker picked up two blondes who were about 5 6" 5 7" and they fitted fine no complaints. Actually they sweated all aspects of the car from the navitgation, to the bluetooth, handsfree keyless entry, push button start. elegant interior, interior lighting, sound system.

    2) Does a small sedan qualify for the "Performance" moniker if it only offers a manual transmission on its most anemic engine?
    I initially was adamant about getting a manual and was quite disappointed when I found out the IS will only be offered in auto. But, the auto in the IS is quick. Some people(blueguydot.com constantly post the shifting is slow in the IS. I disagree, I find it very nimble and if you read most reviews, reviewers agree.
    3) Based upon the pre-release Lexus marketing hype along with the pre-release rhetoric from Lexus management about the IS being a true 3-Series competitor, "Has the IS lived up to its pre-release billing or is it something of a joke?" The 3 series is so overrated. It wins in one category, Handling(driving feel). Every other category that matters to me and the general public I think the IS kills the BMW.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "The 3 series is so overrated. It wins in one category,"

    I guess the IS then is as overrated as the 3 series. Winning the entry level sports sedan moniker, in the entry level category is not a small feat. Yet BMW has managed to do it consistently. What you term anemic has won years of accolades in the engine category in multi-national comparisons.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Oh coming on...he just called the 3er overrated, it's not like he said it's a "joke". Is this really necessary?

    :blush: Sorry, I couldn't resist.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I didn't call anything a "joke", but I think there is a valid point to those who are looking for a manual tranny in a segment partially called sports sedans. While I don't deny a lot us, include me, like the comfort of a slushbox, there are those who rightly like to row their own.

    Disclaimer: I drove a manual for 12 years. I gave it up when my commute changed to crawl. If I were to have a "weekend car", you can bet it would have a manual tranny. But these days I want to lift my foot off the brake and crawl with the traffic.
Sign In or Register to comment.