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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • If honda would make the TL a RWD car, I'd all but guarantee it'd replace my BMW in 2006. A butter sweet 6 speed manual, with that nice 6 and honda quality. I don't even think I'd pause when leaving the BMW at the lease return and I do love my car. I just don't think my BMW is a well made car.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I've been reading this thread for a while and I'm curious to know your reasons as to why you say the G35 has just run over the 3-Series. The way I've seen it written over and over is that the G35 is the best alternative to the 3-Series, but still hasn't matched or beaten the 3-Series in everything. The BMW is still more than being merely competitive, even with less power. Are you saying the 3 is no longer the benchmark and that MB, Audi, Jaguar and others are studying the G35 now?

    Despite my fascination with German cars, the G35 Coupe is a strong contender for my next car, but the interior is downright cheap for this class of car. Whether or not it's trying to be different is open for debate, but that still doesn't mean it has to be cheap feeling/looking.

    The reason I bring this up is because I'm reading your posts and they read like the 3-Series isn't even any competition for the G35. Thats hardly the case.

    M
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed."

    The tourque peak is at around 4 - did you actually drive it. The end of the fun is around 6k if you look at the curve and actually drive one it;s quite apparent. Lets not forget the TL v G 1/4 mile and 0-100 numbers....

    At 4 grand with WOT the G IS as fast as an M3 until 6K This does not make it a better car than an M3. The bang for buck is exactly where you say it isn't in the G. When you go for another drive notice it has almost a turbo lag until about 3200 rmp - and then thrust city. Your statement is quite absurd IMO. At 4k the thing is worth BMW money and I may have paid it.

    "TL has 270HP 3.2 that is 84.3 HP per litter and G35 260hp 3.5 is about 74.3 HP per litter. I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed, on the other hand TL 3.2 comes alive after about 3500 RPM, to me it makes all the difference. "

    Take a look at torque numbers per litre for each. While you are waiting to come alive I've been thrusting down the pike and showing you my led's!

    "Are you saying the 3 is no longer the benchmark and that MB, Audi, Jaguar and others are studying the G35 now?

    I doubt the germans will ever emulate the japanese - too bad for many reasons too but I am saying the G35 is teh benchmark now. Look at the New GS lexus shows at the detriot show I believe for 2006. Looks like the G has had an impact for the next generation in design. Did you see the rear quarter - they may get sued.

    Look at the numbers look at the design and the reliablity. Hell if you dont like the interior as much as i love my willow leather and titanium then wait 12 months and see what happens. The benchmark should not lose to a first timer in performance, be smaller and cost more while in the same class and be considered anything but playing catch up ala the 3.8i v8 3 series coming soon (with a G competitive price too).

    Is there that much of a difference in G over three - NO NO NO. It's simply my argument that that 3 being a benchmark is yesterdays hype still rolling with powerful marketing intertia. The 3 is great no G owner want to take that away from anyone...it's just not the only one anymore and not the best by the performance numbers. If there is something else besides great numbers and looks to pay for I'm not sure I'm going to pay BMW prices for it. I think some people just like that germanic intangible - you get it in a Golf too and to me it conjures up reliabillity issues that seem to pervade every german automaker relentelessly and consistenly. See Bllueguys comments as a 3 owner.

    Also the benchmark should not be overlooked by a comepitors cross shopping as the 3 is when G cross shopppers look at the 5 as an alternative.

    I'd say the 5 is the benchmark the G strives to become over the next five years and the 3 becomes more inline with the is-300 and accord and saab. Is it pricing or size that matters when class comparing?

    Audi and Jag could stand to learn from someone. The audi4 is a passat and the Jag is a mondeo.

    Caddy is better than all but 3 and G. And CTSV - look out...new sherrif in town
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Caddy is better than all but 3 and G. And CTSV - look out...new sherrif in town "

    Well if we're aribtrarily going to $50K lets arbitrarily go to $90K. Watch out for the new M5 0 to 60 in 3.9. Better yet lets go to an Enzo at $600K.

    I'm glad the G is striving for the 5, as I like the philosophy shoot for the stars and hit the moon.
  • raherraher Posts: 99
    Performance Acura 3.2 TL Type-S - Audi A4 3.0 - BMW 330i - Cadillac CTS - Infiniti G35
    Zero-to-60-mph acceleration, sec. 7.0 - 7.4 - 6.3 - 6.9 - 6.7
    Quarter-mile acceleration, sec. 15.4 - 15.8 - 14.9 - 15.3 - 15.1
    Quarter-mile speed, mph 93.5 - 88.5 - 94.6 - 90.7 - 93.5
    60-to-0-mph braking, feet 128.5 - 117.74 -116.66 -118.34 -128.96
    600-ft slalom, mph 61.3 - 63.4 - 63.6 - 59.7 - 59.2

    The data above is from the Edmunds 2003 sedan comparison test. I apologize for the formatting but it was a copy and paste.
    My point here is that sometimes we get overly enthusiastic about what we own and start quoting what we believe to be true in terms of performance, etc. All of these are fine cars and we all have different reasons for buying them.
    These are 2003 models. The TL stats have improved for the TL because of the new model. I believe the 330i and the G35 are consistent with the 2004 models as they are running the same motors as 2003 in 2004 ?
    The recent Edmunds test for the 04 TL had 0-60 in 6.5 and 1/4 mile in 14.9. G35 for 2004 was 0-60 in 6.1 and 1/4 mile in 14.7. I know the 330i 0-60 was almost identical to the TL. There were some 5.7 times reported for both in recent articles.
    The 2003 comparison showed the 330i with the fastest 0-60 time of 6.3. You can find different reviews of these cars with different 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. I believe this is explained by track conditions, tires and skill of the individuals doing the driving. The bottom line for me is that I think you can throw a blanket over these cars in terms of performance in a straight line. It will depend on who is at the wheel. I guess I am disputing the post above which states everyone else will be seeing the LED's of the G 35.
    A really interesting part of the test which I had not seen before was the run through the 600 ft slalom course. The 330i won by edging out the A4 and both of these were 2 mph faster than the others. The G35 was last. I don't know if the G35 made changes to suspension or tires for 04.
    I just re read the Edmunds test for the 04 TL and the TL went through at 67 mph this year. Quite an improvement from the 03 TL-s 61.3 mph. Edmunds said it was "one of the fastest cars we've ever taken through the cones". As a TL owner it shows me that perhaps the rhetoric I constantly hear about RWD being much better handling isn't necessarily true in all instances.
    I am looking forward to the "shoot out" articles that are surely coming in the auto mags. At least it frames the conversations in facts and data and away from opinion.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    raher - just to cite an example. Cars improve every year, so it would be no surprise a FWD of 1980 would be bested by a FWD of 2004. However, having said that, I would like to see how the new ZHP stacks up with the G35 with the SP against the new TL. In the same comparo. Chances are they will best the FWD because of the weight distribution.

    It is my belief that the average driver can get more out of a FWD than a RWD. But a RWD driver who has taken performance classes can extract more out of the RWD than a skilled driver can extract out of the FWD.

    So to your point, there are advantages and disadvantages of each.
  • That test did not do justice to the Type S.
    Emunds compared apples to oranges.

    The Type S was an automatic while the Bimmer and the G were rowing their gears manually.

    If all the cars were automatic across the board the TL would have won hands down.

    I am only standing up for the car I own, not trying to make any point.

    Justice served. :)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "I drove G35 and it feels like the engine is dying after 4000 RPM, that is not what you want if you want to experience performance of a RWD at high speed, on the other hand TL 3.2 comes alive after about 3500 RPM, to me it makes all the difference."

    The converse of this would be that the G35 comes alive as soon as you press the gas, while the TL feels dead until 3500 rpm. Not that I truly agree about either car feeling "dead."
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,431
    It is my belief that the average driver can get more out of a FWD than a RWD. But a RWD driver who has taken performance classes can extract more out of the RWD than a skilled driver can extract out of the FWD.

    Results of grand prix championships would tend to disagree with you. 3-series and Integras were always fighting for top honors.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I actually agree with you in the light HP duty class. That is one of the advantages of FWD. But the horsepower race is on: 400 hp to front wheel? Not sure about that. No problem with RWD. But we are talking Near Luxury, not GP. In the world of Near Luxury street legal cars, it's a different story.

    So yes, cars like the mini will shine in certain situations due to it's overall small chassis, which is aided by the fact FWD has a smaller footprint. But they are inhertently hp limited.

    In terms of the topic, I stand by my assertion talking Near Luxury sport(y) sedans.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "The bottom line for me is that I think you can throw a blanket over these cars in terms of performance in a straight line. "

    In 99% of every comparison I have ever read apples to apples, the 0-100 and the quarter mile went to the G - that says alot. 0-60 can go to anyone on any given day but the real fun and where my purchase decision was made is winding out 3rd..that is well past 60 mph and where my engine and platform shine and seemingly pull away from all competition. I've seen it on the street and I've seen it in the mags. The G pulls hard and leaves many in awe in 3rd gear (i have 5at).

    "As a TL owner it shows me that perhaps the rhetoric I constantly hear about RWD being much better handling isn't necessarily true in all instances."

    No not in all instances but many still. 67 is great for a FWD'er. But since you quote edmunds above here are some other quotes - KDS will enjoy this.."For me, if I'm after a truly sporty sedan, I have to go with the BMW 3 Series" That is from the editor in cheef after testing the new TL.

    Since FWD is for many more than RWD this car should be fine for those folks - there are some more discerning sprts sedan drivers who will avoid this myself included. Driving dynamics are a serious issue in my book and only RWD covers all the performance bases. FWD is too compromising and the reason in the article are stated up front. They are physical laws that cannot be avoided even by japansese engineers at Honda.

    There were other comments on edmunds that the TL is great as long as you dont drive an accord first and get a taste of the platform with about the right amount of power and all the great reason to buy an acura but for alot less.

    And again, why should the G without SP upgrades be compared to 3 with upgrades. I still will take my chances in 5AT form against one on track and god knows i would in 6MT form. Lets see the G35 with a performance package and then we'll compare again.

    Someone mentioned the G was shooting for the stars...dam right and getting there quickly - this is year #2 folks and 5 series has been here for how long. Keep in mind that at 3900 pounds the and similarly sized as G the G is much faster and equally as fast as the 540i. But wait the G doesn't have that intangible no one can explain that only the 5 supposedly has...gremlins? Oh and much more dough and the propeller thingy
  • raherraher Posts: 99
    The main point of my post was to emphasize that enthusiasm for the cars we own often clouds reality and opinion is stated as fact. Edmunds didn't say their slalom test result for the TL was good for a FWD car..they said it was one of the fastest they had ever tested.. period. As to race track performance, one of the previous posts said it best...3 series and Integra battle it out for championships in SCCA racing in that class. Your opinion of the G35 is no substitute for facts. Stating that in 99% of the tests you have seen the G35 wins 0-60 and 0-100 doesn't mean anything unless you have an example.
    What tests , where. I am sure the G35 has come out on top in some tests just as the 330i has and the TL. I stand by my original statement..you can throw a blanket over them for straight line performance. The differences are in 1/10's of a second. Having gearing that emphasizes torque or speed in 3rd versus 2nd or 4th doesn't matter if you are measuring 0-60 or 0-100 since elapsed time is what is being measured.
    Gearing is more important on a race track since the car has to be set up to maximize speed within the confines of the circuit. Having a 160 mph top speed doesn't get you much if the straight only allows 140 mph top end.
    I know the G35 is a great car. I would have bought the coupe but my wife couldn't live with two doors. That doesn't mean it is the end all $30K to $40K sedan however as you keep insisting in your posts.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    chris - my take is that you would be very eager to own an EVO. This is the car with uncompromising performance.
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    quoted from Car and Driver Magazine, in a preview test of the new TL, estimated a 0-60 time of six seconds flat.
    0-60 6.00 secs C&D
    1/4 mile accelaration 14.88 secs/100.8mph Car engine
    Chris is right, 0-60 can go to anyone at anygiven days. But 0-100 I havent seen a lot of them, just 2 article.

    TL'04 will start opening those electric spool valve starting on 4700 rpm. that translates into a broader torque curve and significant peak power.--quoted from carguide magazine.

    Since this TL is new, some data is not available and many hasnt tested it yet. Lets wait.

    I cant even test it my self, too much snow out there. Cant wait but I dont want to make it muddy yet.

    Some article said New TL tuned with A-Spec will get 300+ hp, is it true?
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    I would love to own an evo - 10 years ago. If the evo was comparable it would make sense to bring it up. If we are on this board can we not assume that everyone wants a performance entry lux sedan. You are suggesting that performance is very imprtant? You are right which is why IN CLASS I picked the G.

    I am not in the market for a very well placed and put together econo box. Im in my 30's and dont want another car in the driveway.

    Performance; looks; value; size; tortional rigidity; price; and class without tude, and service are my bullets for purchase.

    This is why I turned down a great deal on an A6 - everything was there but performance - oh and the look was getting old and that actually made me not even negotiate further.
  • Are you insane?

    The G has NOTHING on the 540.

    I am no Bimmer Fan but that 540 is one monster of a car, the G can't even get past the 330.

    Weight or no weight the 540 is a Supreme Car to the G.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Weight or no weight the 540 is a Supreme Car to the G"

    It's not 540 at this point it's 545. :)
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Quoting hp/l figure is completely misleading in our situation. You have to quote the actual hp as realized by the drive wheels! There are tons of efficiency losses. Some marques and models are better than others.

    Real interesting figures are drivewheel HP/l, drivewheel HP/lb, the entire output curve based on drivewheel results, tire efficiency, gearing, and CD. Would be interesting to compare these.

    Too bad manufacturers don't ever quote drivewheel HP! Anyone got a dyno?
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    I have to agree with billyperks about 540/545 but I dont agree G can't even past 330. But that's only from people that I know.

    Some cars are faster than others eventhou they are the same type/model car. Just like my friend's RSX'02, with modified exhaust & intake etc. vs mustang GT but at top speed the rsult is different which hardly can be achieved in street drivings. The results are 2 tickets from IOWA states police. Mustang won.

    How many passenger you have also make a difference during the test.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "I am no Bimmer Fan but that 540 is one monster of a car, the G can't even get past the 330."

    The 540 is great lets agree on that but as far as actual performance you need to realize what the G can do...and this is outperform a 540 until about 100mph - I've been there and many others have as well.

    As far as the 330 comment you must not have read back very far - even the 330 owners concede much performance and hang thier hat on the intangible BMW is the best driving machine stuff while they admit things like "yeah the G is faster so go get an evo if you want fast"

    330i...puleeeeze - I think the RSX is faster than the auto 330. I'd rather a 325 which is a good value if you want the car and not all the performance - almost what the 330i offers in context of the lastest competition for Infinit and Acura
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    Hey everybody upgrades thier motors when someone in a class behind can keep up. It's aHP war and everyone can add displacement - i thought that went against your values KD - where they just add litres instead of something intangible??

    Let's not forget they are not comparable and the price of a 545 is near 70k...and we are still comparing.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "Stating that in 99% of the tests you have seen the G35 wins 0-60 and 0-100 doesn't mean anything unless you have an example."

    Example of what? You are suggesting the Acura is no differnt than a G in acceleration. I'd say show me any car in any compo with G where G loses in either stat. gearing, HP, Torque - they all add up to driving exctiement. If you are left behind then just take it for what it is without gearing excuses or some other anomoly I am supposed to have as an excuse as to why the VQ should not be the most respected engine in the 30k car classes.
  • I understand the love you have for your car as shown in your numerous posts.
     
    I have a TL Type S and not many cars I think can outrun me factory to factory and class for class.

    Last summer a 540 straight out spanked me straight acceleration.

    I know the car is in a differnt class but I thought I could have hanged around with him- NO SIR, HE PULLED AWAY EASILY.

    If you really want to see how the G can go backwards quickly, go up against the 540.

    Remember I warned you. :)
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    260 lbs/ft that has to mean something on street drivings. G35 has been around longer than new TL, so there must have been a lot of test.

    While TL has only been tested a couple times but the result is inconclusive. (All test are based on standard specification no A-Spec)
    0-60
    Edmunds says 6.5 secs
    Car and Driver says 6.0 secs
    An article that I forgot says 5.7 secs

    0-100 by edmund nothing

    1/4 miles
    Edmunds :14.9 secs
    Engine power says 14.88
    Another article says 14.4 secs
    Above that only top speed test but that can hardly be achieved on street drivings.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    I've been there man! It was very even actually - which is my point. I even had the guy ask me what the F I was driving. I have plenty of BMW's in the circle of friends/fam. I know full well what the 5 is about.

    The TL-S is much different than the new TL in gearing and motor and weight and CD. I think I'd expect the results you described for your car. Do you have an auto? Read the stats - none of the 04 cars mentioned (545 notwithstanding) are going to be THAT different really. My points about the G are in context of being the new benchmark as opposed to the 3. These differences are not very big but I will suggest they are consistent and in one direction.

    That said I would expect the new TL to hang with a 540 pretty well. 6.2 is the 0-60 on 540 right guys?
  • danny1878danny1878 Posts: 339
    Anyway there is no exact comparo between G35, 330, TL, 540. 3.5l engine vs 3.0l engine vs 3.2l engine vs 4.0l engine. All car are good. Depends on who drive it. I used to race a bike Yamaha 250cc but since the accident, I would think twice about going all out. Lets drive safe guys.
  • raherraher Posts: 99
    chris..it appears to me you are the one posting that the G can't be beat but don't have any facts to back it up other than it is your opinion because you really like your car. Everyone gets left behind by someone. I am still not convinced that the G is going to consistently leave the other sedans behind since the data isn't out there yet to back up your opinion. That's what those multi car shootouts do. What will you do when you eventually lose one of those stoplight races because your reaction time was a little slow ? Yell at them that the G 35 is faster but the driver isn't ? There really isn't any point to continue to chant the G 35 mantra since you are the only one who appears to believe it. I am willing to admit that they are all nice cars and have different strengths and weaknesses. I am not willing to admit that any of the sedans being discussed is a clear cut winner over the others.
    As to the VQ being the most "respected" engine in the $30K class...respected by who..the owner of the car ? Respect isn't something I give to inanimate objects, respect is for people.
    All I hear is a bunch of bench racing.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "respect is for people"

    And as an aside, I believe prestige is for people, not tires.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    Yes the preacher of 6 speeds. I've put my time in on a 5 speed to understand yout plight in conviving the world that the only cars worth buying are manual. You and KD can spar about that. I dont want to break up with my GF and dont want to sit in DC traffic for 3 hours pushing a clutch whenever I go to NC. If the car was slower by more than .2 seconds or handled less - I'd buy that swamp sale. Get over the manual tranny thing - it's old school now that SMG 8 and 9 speeds are on the drawing boards. Personally I hope that I'll always have the choice to go to personally engaging the clutch or not. You are preaching to someone who used to think that way...as far as troucning me - you'll have to be a much better driver and in our hypothetical world these cars are very even. 0-60 you can have if I can have 0-100.

    0-60 is not a race - you can have your gearing designed to compete directly with the G and then I can get past you to 100 just like the stats show.

    If someone needs me to prove it to them then I'll I have to do is simply READ BACK at all the freaking comps posted already - take a look at each one specifying a 0-100 and quarter. Find any car in class that beats G auto to auto or 6 to 6 and I will concede to you whatever you want. I've been there before and I thought most of you were already there with me. Heres some research - i usually leave it to you guys and believe you guys but am capable I swear.

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0208_sedan/index4.h- tml

    read the last page KDS - the end of the your "automotive press" says 3's best. This is one of two majors who side with me.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "What will you do when you eventually lose one of those stoplight races because your reaction time was a little slow ?"

    It happens - a wrx modded got me the other day - to 40 anyway - i tip my hat to anyone with my passion for driving and cars in general. Hey as long as we are free to purchase whatever we want then anyone of us can get the percieved best.
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