Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stevecebu

Last time I checked, when a car "retails" for a certain amount, that pretty much means MSRP, not "street prices".

Not always, MSRP is a figure the car manufacturer determines the car *should* retail for. It's a given number that in the real world has little meaning due to rebates and discounts and haggling and leasing and
trade-ins etc....
But MSRP is set by the manufacturer, not the dealer. What a car actually retails for can be very different than MSRP.
MSRP in not an arbitrary number.

ggrif

I am considering purchasing Certified '03 E320 or a '04 C240 from a local dealer in Louisville. The E320 has very low miles, 24K, while the C240 has 36K. The price difference is about $5,000, but I am torn as to whether to go with a new model with average mileage or the older model with low mileage. This would be my first luxury car purchase. Any thoughts out there?

habitat1

While neither car is my cup of tea, I think the E class is a much more substantial car than the C class. Unfortunately, both have had their share of quality and reliability issues, in the years you are considering. But my marketing director's former 2002 E300 Turbodiesel felt like a true luxury car - quiet, solid, nice interior. Her assistant's C240 was, IMO, noisy, less solid feeling and a downscale interior by comparison. I do not think of the C class as a "luxury car".

Whatever your decision, I would not put much value in 36k miles vs. 24k. I would actually rather buy a car that has been driven regularly, with a good mix of highway miles, than one only used for short hops. I have 155k mostly highway miles on my 13 year old Nissan Maxima and it has less mechanical wear and tear than cars with 1/3 that mileage driven mostly in the city.

texases

Another big difference - room. Do you expect to carry 4 adults any distance? No can do in C.

ggrif

Thank you. Your comments are very helpful. Since the E-class is a "local" car it will be easier to dermine how the car was driven before it was turned in.

ggrif

Well, thats another thought. I will probably have occasions to do so but not often, but its certainly a fact to consider.

dan12

I just read some posts that aluminum trim gets really hot in the summer. Now that I think about it, that makes a lot of sense. Did I make a mistake ordering my car with black interior and aluminum trim? Should I have gone with wood instead (and maybe gray interior)? The wife hates the wood, but I'd rather not fry in the summer.

qbrozen

In my experience, yes it does.

pv2

I think a bigger factor in heat is the black interior; not the aluminum trim. My prior car was a 2003 CL-S with black interior and there's a noticeable improvement with the lighter interior on my 2007 TL-S. No noticeable heat on the carbon fiber or silver interior trim. You might want to try a front window shade if it's parked in the sun.

qbrozen

No noticeable heat on the carbon fiber or silver interior trim.

i believe carbon fiber is not known for retaining heat, however, and is the silver trim you speak of aluminum or painted plastic?

The only car I really had a problem in was my 350Z. The aluminum shift knob was barely usable on a real hot day if the sun had been beating on it.

You are right, of course, that a sunshade can help. But the aluminum will not absorb any less of the sun's rays in a light-colored interior.

texases

Like you say, most 'aluminum' trim is painted/plated/whatever plastic, so no difference there, but a solid metal gear shift knob will fry you (had one many years ago). You could take an appropriately-sized foam coffee cup to slip over it to keep the sun off, but it would still heat up. The problem with metal is not that it gets hotter (everthing inside will get to about the same temperature, except for what's in the sun) but that it conducts heat so well, so it can deliver all that heat rapidly to your hand, unlike plastic. So the black interior will be the bigger factor. Go to the max on legal, high-quality window tint for the side and rear windows (I wouldn't do the front) if you don't mind the reduced night vision, and get a good removeable widow shade.

blueguydotcom

Many cars with aluminum trim (BMWs and Cooper S - so yes it's real aloo-mini-um) and I've never noticed them as hot to the touch.

tayl0rd

Real aluminum doesn't retain heat, it repels it. [ok. Repel was the wrong choice of words.] That's why aluminum is used as heat shields on cars, etc. I have a car that has real aluminum trim and it [the trim] is never hot to the touch. It maintains a relatively constant temperature in hot or cold. With direct contact, heat will pass right through aluminum; with indirect contact, it just bounces off.

I usually will pull aluminum foil straight out of a hot oven with my bare hands because it doesn't hold the heat of the oven. As long as you don't grab it where the hot food or cooking pan is, you're fine.

scottm123

Aluminum does not repel heat.
The fact is that Aluminum is a fantastic conductor of heat.

What this means is that if Aluminum is placed near a heat source, it heats very quickly and holds its heat.
Once the heat source is removed, it cools quickly as well.

The reason you can hold the aluminum edges from the oven is because, as you open the oven door, the heat source is removed (hot air leaving oven) and replaced with cooler air.
You can then hold the edges because the aluminum has cooled in that area.
If aluminum repelled heat, aluminum oven bags would not work.

Aluminum trim in a car can and will become very warm to the touch if the source of heat is constant, like a very hot interior, caused by the sun.
Once the interior cools, the aluminum should cool as well, as long as the material behind the trim has cooled as well.

gordonwd

I currently have a '04 325i and before that had a '98 A4, both excellent cars IMHO. My wife is now shopping for a car and wants something no larger than mine, and preferably a bit smaller but practical. What we are seriously looking at is the Audi A3, which is quite nice with the 2.0T and DSG tranny.

I had some hope for the 1-series, but was surprised that they're just bringing it in as a coupe. For us, a car that size is not very practical unless it has the extra space that you get with the hatch style. So the 1 is out and the A3 might be in for us, but we're also waiting to see what they do with the Opel Astra when it comes here later this year with a Saturn badge on it.

blueguydotcom

We've got an 06 A3 with DSG. It's a great car and we're extremely happy with it so far.

dan12

I'm looking at a new BMW 3-series sedan with the aluminum trim. I have no idea if it's covered with plastic or anything else. It sure doesn't look like it is. But there is a bunch of it, both on the dash and next to the gear shift. I hope BMW is smart enough not to plaster a car with material that will fry you, especially right next to the gear shift where you are likely to put your hands.

Anyone have experience with the 3-series specifically?

blueguydotcom

Yes, my 2006 330i had aluminum trim. Never got hot to the touch. And it was the real deal. The lame gearshift does not have aluminum.

kdshapiro

Congratulations...hope you continue to enjoy it.

blueguydotcom

It's the fiancee's car but yes we dig it. It's a nice shift from the Cooper S - quieter, roomier, softer, and obviously able to swallow more stuff.

das107

I'm deciding btwn a BMW 3xi(auto), the Audi A4 and the Lexus IS 250 AWD. I don't want or need all the bells and whistles just the basics ie. leather, power seats etc. What packages should I ask for? Does anyone have any information that could lead me one way or another? The Lexus seems to be more expensive and the dealers here don't budge a lot with pricing. I need to hear more peoples opinions. Also does anyone know when BMW plans to change the body and/or design? I don't want to end up buying a car to have the entire design change a year later. Thank you and I look forward to hearing from everyone.

circlew

Here's a 328xi with Leather, ZSP - Sport Package for the best seats I've experienced. This will give you no frills in comfort for $38,513 (Edmunds)

You will not be disappointed...I drive the '06 330xi and loving it.

Regards,
OW

louiswei

I think das107 has specifically asked for auto tranny. So that's extra $1,250 for the Bimmer. Without the sport package (I don't think he asked for it), one should be able to get it for around $37,000 at sticker.

IS250 AWD: around $35,000 at sticker

Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: around $32,500 MSRP

das107

A 328xi (auto) with just the basics ie.power seats you think will cost me $37,000? That is higher then the dealerships quoted me. I really want to know peoples opinions comparing the 3 different cars. The A4 2.0T Quattro 08' is changing the place of the axel I think. Please correct me if I am wrong. For the money which is the best car? I don't drive a lot and don't drive long distances. I live in the city and drive to and from work.

circlew

If you live in the city, skip xi/awd. I do not think you need it unless you live in a city like Buffalo. 328i as equipped, $35,135. Snow tires in winter for another $600.

Regards,
OW

snakesndafield

I've driven them all recently; 1st the BMW - everyone claims it is unequaled in handling. Who am I to argue. The steering is very weighty, possibly too much at low speeds for some. It does manage to feel very tight and extremely smooth all at once. Definitely the driver's car but if you're on city streets the whole time you might never notice. Lousy cupholders & average interior layout, but the backseat is surprising decent. 2nd the Lexus - I like it less each time. Interior is superb but I find it overly cramped even up front. There's no place to set your phone down. It's also slow and those are two bad strikes. I did think it had good steering weight, handles fairly well and cornered flat. To me, I liked the Audi best. It's not really any bigger but it feels less cramped. The little four banger is plenty quick and gets great mpg. My only problem with the Audi - it's tired, looks like it's been around forever (especially the interior which is the same one from like 1999) and will be replaced by a the newer, better model inside of a year. So it's out for me. Personally, I'm gonna get a used A6. HOpe this helps, these things helped me make my decision.

kdshapiro

"Lousy cupholders & average interior layout,"

Lends credence to the fact that people do care about cupholders...lol. Disagree about interior, it's to my liking and not as busy as some other interiors.

shipo

Dude, I've gotta echo what circlew said. I lived in and around the Chicago area for well over a decade and I cannot for the life of me understand why you want to waste your money on an AWD system that you aren't going to use.

Save your money, get a few extra goodies and be happy.

Best Regards,
Shipo

texases

I'd be worried that an IS250/AWD/AT might be a bit slow, lot of weight, small engine + AT. Just not what I'd want to spend that much money on for a car that aspires to 'performance'. But driving is the only way to tell.

louiswei

Agree about the interior. I didn't notice how "lousy" the cupholders are during my test drive since I don't use it much anyway. However, 3er's interior is the worst out of the 3 IMO. It's just...too plain. I know simplicity is good but there is a difference between simplicity and plain. Interior wise, all 3 have similar quality and fit-n'-finish, it's up to each person to decide which style suits him/her the best.

louiswei

Audi A4 2.0T Quattro has similar HP as the IS250 AWD, has smaller engine. Don't know which one weighs more though. 328xi will no doubt be the performance king by a mile out of the 3.

blueguydotcom

A4 has torque in ample quantities compared to the 2.5 in the IS and with a $600 mod you can give the car 250 hp/280 ft-lbs of torque. On the AWD that'd get that car moving.

habitat1

My vote is for a 328i RWD.

Unless you really need AWD (i.e. anticipate driving in snow on more than an occasional basis), you are paying a lot for AWD. It is heavier, less fuel efficient and, depending upon how long you keep the car, prone to more expensive maintenance and repairs down the road.

The A4 Quatro is a heavy pig, IMO. I've been given one a couple of times as a loaner and was anxious to give it back. For all of the drooling others do over Audi's interiors, I just don't get it. I like the interior and ergonomics of my 2004 TL better. On the other end, I am spoiled by my 911, which has best "German" style interior and seats of any car, IMO.

I have not driven the IS250 AWD but, as has been pointed out, it would likely be highest in reliabiity, but lowest in performance and driving dynamics, if that is of any importance. Plus, the rear seat is almost worth a 2+2 designation (closer to my 911 than TL in leg room)

If I were in the market for a new sedan today, the 328/335 would likely be at the top of my short list.

plekto

My vote is for a previous generation 3 series, factory certified.

*edit* Or two generations

The new ones are like the new IS350 - bloated and heavy things with no soul anymore. Or wait and get the 3 series of old(idea-wise) in a new package when the 1 series comes out.

habitat1

Well, I think you might have to go back a couple generations, not just one, to get a 3 series that has the "soul" you are looking for.

I agree that the 3 series has grown practically to the size of the 5 series of 10 years ago. But of the cars under consideration, it still handles that size and weight the best, IMO.

louiswei

Doesn't matter who comes here to ask for suggestions or whatever his/her criteria is the standard answer is always...

BMW 3er RWD with manual tranny and oh, yeah, add the sport package.

Cracks me up. :P

shipo

Hmmm, I don't remember suggesting anything other than RWD to him. The roads and the weather in Chicago certainly don't warrant AWD, especially so for an in-town commute. Geez, when it snows, take the train or the bus or the El.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jamesspot

Used takeoff wheels -----------------> $500
New high performance snow tires -------> $500

The look on your mechanic's face when you thank him for mounting your 155 mph Z-rated snow tires -------------------------> PRICELESS!

dan12

"Agree about the interior. I didn't notice how "lousy" the cupholders are during my test drive since I don't use it much anyway. However, 3er's interior is the worst out of the 3 IMO. It's just...too plain. I know simplicity is good but there is a difference between simplicity and plain. Interior wise, all 3 have similar quality and fit-n'-finish, it's up to each person to decide which style suits him/her the best. "

I tend to agree. The interior in Japanese cars looks much more high tech and modern. But it's a toss up between the 3-series and the Audi for worst interior out of the three cars mentioned. Unfortunately there is not much headroom in the IS. The BMW feels a bit cramped, but at least my head doesn't touch the roof.

I would say, get the RWD with manual. Oh, and throw in the sports package.

plekto

Actually I loathe the new 3.

It's almost 3700 pounds! My father's 1997 Park Ave Ultra is the exact same weight. And it's not a small or unsafe car, either. It's the biggest Buick they made. Ever.

shipo

"It's almost 3700 pounds! My father's 1997 Park Ave Ultra is the exact same weight."

While it is true that you can option up a 3-Series to that weight, the entry level weight of the 328i is 3,340 pounds. To put that into perspective, my 1999 328i was smaller than the current E90 and only 143 pounds lighter (3,197 pounds).

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro

And the new G37 is even porkier.

shipo

Yeesh!

habitat1

It's almost 3700 pounds! My father's 1997 Park Ave Ultra is the exact same weight.

Hence my recommendation to get the 3,340 lb 328i RWD in lieu of the nearly 250 lb heavier 3,582 lb 328ix.

The 328i RWD also comes in at 210 lbs lighter than the A4 2.0 Quatro and a whopping 311 lbs lighter than the dimunitive IS250 AWD. If you are in a "loathing" mood over weight, you might want to redirect you attention to Lexus relative to the 3 cars under consideration.

And, just for the record, a 2007 Buick Lucerne weighs in at 4,018 lbs. The days of my 1995 Maxima SE at 3,001 lbs and with more interior room than the current 3 series and A4 - and way, way more than the Bob Costas sized IS - are, regrettibly, gone. Between techno do-dads, more safety equipment, 17/18/19 inch wheels, etc. etc., the manufacturers have put the pounds on all of the ELLPS's.

habitat1

Doesn't matter who comes here to ask for suggestions or whatever his/her criteria is the standard answer is always... BMW 3er RWD with manual tranny and oh, yeah, add the sport package.

Cracks me up. :P

I was thinking of suggested a 911 coupe, since it has nearly as functional a back seat as the IS.

But I knew that would split you right in half. :P

louiswei

At least the IS has 2 extra doors...

Ask my friend who drives a G35 coupe, when it's time to put 4 people into a car, the 2 extra doors are very helpful. For some of us who don't have the luxury to own more than 1 car, the functionality of the sedan still outweighs the lust for a couple.

I don't want to get technical with you habitat1 but I'll bet my car key to say that the backseat of the IS can handle 2 adults way more comfortably than your 911 coupe.

habitat1

I don't want to get technical with you habitat1 but I'll bet my car key to say that the backseat of the IS can handle 2 adults way more comfortably than your 911 coupe.

You'd win that bet. But if you changed "comfortable" to "enjoyable", and "adults" to "kids", my daughters would take my side, especially with the top down. Of course, they'd say that compared not just to the IS, but my TL and a friend's 750il as well.

According to a friend who is currently in the market, the 3 series and TL compare more closely in size and rear seat functionality to the Lexus GS than they do to the IS. Haven't checked dimensions myself, but he claims the IS is uninhabitable by an average adult in the rear seat behind his driver's seat (he's 6'2").

pat

Interesting post: hailalmamater, "2008 C-Class Driving Impressions" #1, 28 Jul 2007 1:02 am

louiswei

I am not gonna argue with your friend. I am 6'1" with super long thighs...

However, a below average adult will fit just fine though.

jzalkin

Here is my take with the following disclamer: I own a 2006 IS250 RWD and had a 2004 A4 Cab 1.8t before it.

I chose the Lexus over the BMW because of value and comfort. I am in South FL and the roads are a grid system. Only handling I get to experience is 90 degree turns so the BMW handeling factor was out. The BMW was more and did not include a power seat and leather on the car I test drove. The Lexus luxury is the best quality wise and I continue to marvel at the leather (12 months and 23,000 miles later) - so smooth and soft. Lexus does luxury the best and will appeal to you if you value that.

The Audi was great fun and I like the interior the best (the cab is better than the sedan), but quality was an issue. It maybe cliche to say about the German cars, but I always had a list of things that needed to be fixed under warr in the Audi from the start and even had to get them to cover the top when it was 1,500 miles out of warr and seperated from the rear window (2 years into ownership) Top would have been $6,000 to replace and I figured the car would be expensive to keep. The Lexus is much better than my Audi for the little things that go wrong and are annoying.

The Lexus back seat is tight, but I have had adults in it every so often. Since it is not a weekly thing - not a major factor for me.

I'll wrap it up by saying this:
- Lexus for Luxury and peace of mind quality
- BMW for logo and the privilage for paying a premium for it
- Audi is about to be replaced, but maybe the best price

PS - My IS was $32,500+TTL including Premium, NAV, 18" wheels, minor others. 75% Highway and have averaged 28.4mpg since new which is why the 250 and not the 350.