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Comments
- Lexus for Luxury and peace of mind quality
- BMW for logo and the privilage for paying a premium for it
- Audi is about to be replaced, but maybe the best price
So basically, if you want a Toyota with a nicer badge and no back seat, get the IS.
Of course a TSX or Camry V6 would offer all the same for a much lower price and give you a backseat. So really, if driving performance isn't important, why bother with an IS250?
"if you want a Toyota with a nicer badge and no back seat, get the IS" Please share the Toyota that Lexus just put the IS badge on to make a Lexus? The Lexus IS is based on the Lexus GS platform so it is not a glorified Toyota as you implied.
The Lexus is more Luxurouis IMO (and most other including car mags) than the BMW. Just touch the inside of the A pillar to see what I mean. The BMW is better at handling which does me little good in South Florida since there are no winding roads (grid system)or even any hills. A perfect place for raw, straight line performance (my old Ford Cobra was a lot of fun).
The BMW costs more for similar equipment and has a worse reliability record. Thus, there is a premium price to be paid for the logo compared to Lexus,Infiniti, Audi for similar equipment. I would say the same for Mercedes as well.
If he had mentioned the TSX, I would summed it up as the best value, but without the style or Luxury as some of the others.
For me the IS250 is perfect since it offers Luxury, quality, reliability, style (subjective), and gas efficiency. For me the BMW offored less luxury, less reliability, better handling, so-so styling (sedan - subjective), run-flats (I consider a negative) and increased cost.
BTW - The 3 series back seat is small (slightly larger than the IS) and not ideal for frequent adult use either. For that the 5, CTS, GS is ideal.
PS - Equipping the 328 as my Lexus Edmunds shows MSRP to be $40,300 with invoice of $37,120. I paid $500 over invoice (+TTL) for my Lexus at $32,500. Is the BMW worth $5,000 more - that is question only the person buying can answer.
Don't know if you are new or what but I'll let you into a little secret...
This board is anti-Lexus.
Don't share this with other people okay?
:P
PS. it's a joke (well...sort of)
My friend put it to me this way, cars are mostly computerized now a days, so would I want a computer made in Germany or made in Japan. I chose the latter but what I didn't account for is that all the mechanical items on the IS250 are cheap and made to be replaced frequently. Lexus sees that as big $$$$ for the American market. BMW still believes in making a quality product out of pride which will last. and they make a decent amount (enough and to not gouge) for it.
Geez it's like those old movies with high school gangs (ie the jets and something else).
Louis, Its ok, no one is attacking you personally. Why are you so scared that people will say bad things about your IS250 that you have to send "secret" messages and crash an ongoing discussion about the cost of owning an IS250 to a new buyer?
Relax, no one is here to hurt you. But on the same note I would say if you don't like the bad with the good statments, then why are you here?
You get what you pay for. mostly. I would've been better off getting the Accord than the IS250. Maybe it goes a little slower and doesn't have those neet little buttons that open my garage, but at least I would know that I would be taken care of by Honda Corporate attitude.
BTW, everyone knows that the rags are rigged to say what the auto makers want them to. Only the internet is true when it comes to facts. (ie asking actual owners).
I came to the Lexus discussion not because of you it's because I tracked all IS related discussions. Don't be too full of yourself.
helping a person who was asking for help.
Honestly, the reason I reply is because I don't think your posts are so helpful but rather than you are using them for your own agenda. As a current IS owner and many others, we have different dealership experience than you do.
Why are you so scared that people will say bad things about your IS250 that you have to send "secret" messages and crash an ongoing discussion about the cost of owning an IS250 to a new buyer?
First of all, I am not scared. Second, I don't have an IS250 and last but not least, if you can't take the previous "secret" post as a joke then I have nothing to add here. Dude, I have been here (ELLPS board) way longer than you do and there is a reason for my previous joke. I am pretty sure habitat1 gets it... :P
Oh, by the way, the previous discussion wasn't about "the cost of owning an IS250" like you stated. It's about a comparison between the IS, 3er and A4. You, my friend, made it a cost discussion in order to pursuit your own agenda.
Relax, no one is here to hurt you. But on the same note I would say if you don't like the bad with the good statments, then why are you here?
LOL, like you are capable of hurting me. Dude, you are way too full of yourself. As for bad and good statements...my philosophy is always: Give credit when credit is due.
It comes down to Odds. Odds are that Lexus will build a better car and JD Power proves it as well as CR. There are good dealers and bad as well for all makers.
According to Edmunds:
Lexus IS250 5 year maintenance cost: $4,305
1$364 2$839 3$554 4$1,527 5$1,021 Total:$4,305
BMW 328 5 year maintenance cost: $3,098
1$0 2$0 3$0 4$1,009 5$2,089 Total$3,098
So that means that BMW costs more to maintain (compare year 4 & 5), but gives you some freebees. Savings will vary on miles driven and length of ownership. I drive 24,000 miles/year so I take the longer view. Drove out of my free Audi service in less than 2 years.
If I could get the BMW at $500 over invoice like my Lexus; I would still be ahead $4,000 +/- over 5 years (less for me due to mileage) with the Lexus. The BMW would also have a bigger chance of failing.
Not all Lexus are perfect and not all BMW will fall apart. It is just the odds that the Lexus will be more reliable (and cost less) than BMW.
Sorry for your bad experience, but it does mean that I now have a mathematically better chance that mine is perfect since yours is not. A weird way to look at it, but mathematically true.
The point I was making was beyond the dealer. Meaning if neither the BMW or Lexus dealers could help you and you have to escalate it. BMW prides itself on taking care of their customers and Lexus is only about building the hype of quality and service. I've experienced both and i'v talked to others who feel the same.
If nothing goes wrong The IS250 is a great car, but if something does, be prepared to fight Lexus on it and in a big way.
BTW, as I stated the Mags' facts are never true, JD and CR dont have their facts straight on maint cost. and maint should be per mile and not per year for better acuracy.
Here is the true cost from my dealer and all So Cal dealers charge the same:
Let me ask you, do you feel better knowing you have a lemon from a high quality auto manufacturer? Meaning your the odd man out who has the car that is the POS?
To me it doesn't make a difference about odds. A lemon is a lemon, even from a manufacturer at the bottom of the barrel.
That is why I don't make my final decision on reliability surveys.
Ah, no my point was: you don't care about handling, so why bother with a RWD car? you do care about luxury, quality and space (mentioned the backseat is small). A Toyota Camry, Hyundai Acara, Honda Accord, Nissan Maxima and an Acura TSX offer all of those things: luxury, quality and space.
What's wrong with those choices? If the 5k difference pushed you into an IS250, then the 5k gap from a TSX/Camry to IS250 probably would make a difference too. You sure the badge didn't play a little role? Just a wee bit?
You can easily buy a BMW for 5k off MSRP. Take the $1300 saved on maintenance and apply that to your flight to Germany, 1 night at the Munich Marriot ($55) and various cab transfers (you can easily fly to Germany for under $800 from Florida).
The prices come out nearly even. But you don't want the badge or the performance, so, I don't get the point of buying a RWD Lexus when a FWD Acura or Toyota would suffice.
- Lexus for Luxury and peace of mind quality
- BMW for logo and the privilage for paying a premium for it
So you are saying, YOU would buy a Lexus for luxury and peace of mind quality. But if YOU were to buy a BMW you would buy it for the logo only?
According to Edmunds:
Lexus IS250 5 year maintenance cost: $4,305
1$364 2$839 3$554 4$1,527 5$1,021 Total:$4,305
BMW 328 5 year maintenance cost: $3,098
1$0 2$0 3$0 4$1,009 5$2,089 Total$3,098
I'm not sure why they (Edmunds) lists maintenance for year 4...I believe it's 4years 50Kmiles free. Maybe it's their assumption of 15K miles a year...so year 4 would only have 5K of miles covered...or something like that.
But at 24K miles a year you're right...you'd be out of the "free" zone pretty quickly...for me 8-10k a year...it's a little better.
I think you probably made a good purchase decision for you...if you don't have the opportunity to enjoy what the BMW has to offer then the biggest appeal (IMO) of the BMW is gone.
BTW...I just did the TCO and it gave me lower numbers for BMW and the IS...maybe regional?
I never trust those surveys or data from these type of sites. I would never trust data from a place who makes their profit from the advertisers who they are building the data about. I have been in advertising for 15 years and I know how it works. There is a chain where everyone scratches everyones back and the consumer is none the wiser.
Another point is the Mercedes case study. They were it, as far as number one quality in the 1990's, but they have the worst (yes I did own one too) quality of the high-line cars lately. Everyone seems to think that it is because Chrysler bought them. That is not true. Daimler (a German company who has owned MB for a long time) bought Chrysler. The reason for the decline in quality was that Dr. Dieter (CEO)(yea that guy from the ads) saw that the company had an outstanding reputation and saw where he could cut corners on quality to make more $$$. This would take several years to ripple down and most consumers buy what they are told they can trust (ie name recognition and reputation) and not on the quality of the current model itself.
Who today has an outstanding reputation built from the 1990's through to the 2000s, recently changed their body styles for the entire line and who has a new VP of the American division (Jim Farley)? Yes it's Lexus.
People will see, they will ride out their reputation and new styling (which does look good btw) until the music stops and people start seeing them as the greedy corporate rats they are. People will only notice this when they notice that their Lexus cars are not as good as they used to be. This takes a few decades to happen. Just look at GM. They were at the top once and now where are they after blowing $1b on the EV1 then bucking under pressure of the oil companies.
But it is easier for people to stick their heads in the sand and take what they are fed like good little mice.
Like kd said a POS is a POS by any other name. at least if I got an Accord, I would've saved half my money.
I want to get a good feel in the comparison between it and the other sedans given the weight difference. For now, let's look at BMW.
At 3,439 lbs/ 1,560 kgs, this 135i is still no light weight. The'06 330xi which I drive is 3,671 lbs. I assume the 231 extra lbs. is distributed evenly across the platform. The 330i is 3,450 lbs. or about 11 lbs. heavier.
What is the real difference with this car? :confuse: 11 lbs. and a few grand less cash? Can the performance vary that much? I assume the 2002, which is the emulation here, was way lighter.
Regards,
OW
That's unless if one is a hardcore fan to a certain brand...
The next consideration is the service response of the dealer/mfg. formula. If you find a really good one, this matters. It could be a great Lexus dealer or a really phenomenal BMW dealer. This will no doubt be part of your future decision-making process.
It's about the drive for me. Whatever it is for you is what is important. BTW, that is what is missing in the domestics...the passion! (IMO)
Regards,
OW
BINGO - It is about interpretation. There are things that Lexus does better than BMW and vice-versa. The key is which of those things matter most to the buyer.
I've come to the conclusion that many on the board (not intended for the poster I am replying to) are like those in politics and religion. They are at the extremes and think that their opinion is right for all others. Those are the people who should be ignored.
Test for others - if you say: (Insert Brand X) is better in all ways than (Insert Brand Y) and you would be an idiot for choosing (Insert Brand Y); you are the person I am describing.
In this topic: Value, Comfort, Speed, Handling, Reliability, Tech Toys, Size, and Panache are qualities that vary in each car and vary in importance to each person.
Now for the fun debate part.
My assessment of the BMW 3 series and Lexus IS:
BMW leads: Speed (smaller engine; even on the larger), Handling, Size (slightly), Panache
Lexus leads: Value, Comfort, Reliability, Tech Toys
Those results are why I chose the Lexus and others have bought a BMW
PS - I hope the Domestics improve and the new CTS seems to be a winner.
(Disclaimer: I am a proud IS350 owner)
BMW leads:
Speed - well, yeah, by 2 tenth of a second but it is achieved by 2 low pressure turbos. Less moving parts in the engine bay is more ideal since it has less chance to break down and I will be cautious for a turbo engine's long time reliability. If 2 engines produce "similar" (not identical) power then I'd go for NA instead of force induced.
Handling - hands down here.
Size - For the people who rarely have people sitting in the backseat this point is moot. As for front leg room, the IS is almost 2.5 inches longer than the 3er.
Panache - I guess people view BMW as a prestige brand but I see BMW as a performance first, luxury second kind of manufacture.
Lexus:
Value - Well, sort of, however a top of the line IS350 will run around $48K. To me that's only value when comparing to BMW and MB.
Comfort - Hands down. However, handling is sacrificed in order to achieve that.
Reliability - By a small margin. I personally consider reliability a moot point when comparing to import luxury brands. Well, maybe not Audi but BMW and Lexus are close enough to make this a non-argument.
Tech Toys - Well, almost all brands offer enough tech toys these days. It all depends on if one's willing to pay for it or not.
PS. I agree that the new CTS looks good.
It weighs 2 tons! GM, nice try but as usual, NO CIGAR!
Regards,
Ow
When you say value you mean tech toys to the dollar. Because as sure as shootin' your definition of value isn't mine. My definition of value is handling enjoyment per dollar. I could care less about tech toys, I just want the standard fare.
There are many idiot. It is the people that think that "The Ultimate Driving Machine" is an engineering feat and not a slogan created by an ad agency. The same idiot people who think a Lexus is perfect because of their pursuit of it (perfection).
I think value is to take several models within the same category and make them as similar as possible in equipment levels. For instance, the BMW would cost $5,000+/- more at the invoice level for how I bought it. (please do not mention overseas delivery since it is uncommon for the ave buyer)
As I said in my earlier post that each one of those qualities are weighted different for every person. You don't value tech toys; thus, it is low. I value it higher because I am in a car often (NAV, Bluetooth, Ventilated Seats). You value driving dynamics and I value them less due to where I live (grid system - no hills)
I agree a lot of people buy a sporty/sports car and yet themselves aren't race car drivers. So who cares about the reason that people buy cars. I wish I was a successful as BMW in brand marketing. People are not as stupid as you think, they are not buying the logo. They are buying what they believe is behind the logo: top quality workmanship, sporty qualities, good ownership experience, etc.
No different than someone buying a Lexus because they believe they just picked up the ultimate in luxury.
In fact to me BMW has a better type of luxury, less tech toys but a high quality and useful drivers dash. Nav? Ha, 9.99/mo VZ Nav and I can synch it with the website. Bluetooth...already have a hands-free, Ventilated seats..don't like 'em.
To each their own.
Like you said, to each of their own.
IMHO, as long as one has a valid reason behind his/her purchasing decision then to me that's more or less a good buy. The reasons that's "unvalid" are something like:
I buy BMW because it's a BMW, or I buy Lexus because it's a Lexus.
BTW, last night I found a recall on the IS350 brakes because so many people complained abut the exessive dust and the short life. It is a warranty change out to a lower performance system which lasts longer. But I am not street racing my IS, I just got to work and home so I would rather add 2 feet on my stopping distance if it will add $$$ back in my wallet. I am just waiting until they inculde the 250 on the recall.
and what you said KD is so true for this forum. "That is much different than saying buying BMW for the logo. Logo buyers aren't limited to BMW, there are "L" logo buyers as well. "
I have found too many "L" logo buyers who are trying to convert you becuse they have a one minded view of their relationship with their Lexus. Just like jz said, about the religious thing. There are people who love their car like jz and there are other people here who are in love this their car. I have a different view on the Lexus reliability than jz but that is what makes it a forum. How boring would it be if everyone had the same opinion? I also have always said that I love the IS styling and the start button is awesome. But the reliability of my IS differs from the experience that jz is having with his car.
I am just tired of people in these forums trying to tell me that im wrong when I know that I am having a bad experience with Lexus or that I am only one opposite of thousands that love theirs. If I said that Audi is the best in this forum, some would disagree and tell me why they don't feel that way based on their own experiences (and friends experiences), yet others would tell me that I am wrong because THEY KNOW that their brand kicks Audi's A. That is rediculous. This is the religion of Lexus. When I think of the Lexus zealots, I think of those Trans Am and Farrari nut jobs in the 1980's with their logo Members Only jackets.
It comes down to the compnay in the end and for me Lexus Corp doesn't measure up. The performance of the 330, or the luxury of the IS, none of it matters if you keep getting screwed over a $10 part that they charge you $1000 for and it breaks every 2 months, then they tell you that it is not under warranty because of some loop hole they created.
So you would excuse Lexus if they sold you a lemon because you are a hardcore fan?
to quote Manfred Mann, "Blinded by the light..."
All auto makers and any product for that matter has lemons, Lexus, BMW, Honda, you name it. It is how they handle it when you buy one is what is important. Will they check it out and replace the part or the whole car, or will they fight you on a $10 part.
For me there is never any brand who goes unchecked. If you are a hardcore fan of a brand, then no logic will ever make sense even if God himself comes down to tell you that that brand had one flaw.
If BMW started slipping tomorrow, I would drop kick them through the uprights so fast their wheels would spin. Thats what I did to my view of Lexus when they screwed me. and I would do the same with any auto maker. They have to continue to prove themselves everyday. That is what makes a good auto maker.
As Robin Williams said in Birdcage, "You can always get more toast" If you get 5 lemons, and the compnay is stand up, you will get 5 replacements. If you get one lemon from a bad comapny, you are looking at a day in court, a series of migranes and a partial refund minus milage.
That's what I did to all cars US!!! I second the motion for making the BMW field goal if I had some of the problems I've seen on these boards and was not satisfied with the response.
You either back up your product or you don't.
Regards,
OW
That is exactly my thinking.
I could write a book on the myriad of problems that BMW dealers were unable to fix on my e46 and e90. Fun cars and that's it. Let's not go overboard here.
Lexus is what every manufacturer aspires to be regarding reliability, problems per 100 cars, and long term reliability.
Yes a lemon will creep into the mix. But compared to the wholesale issues of 335s overheating (check out the e90 thread on that subject at bimmerfest), this is a small drop in the bucket.
Brakes needing replacing "early" is a big issue? Come on. That's plagued the G35 (and all Nissans) from day one. BMW 3 series cars tend to get their first set of brakes replaced in the mid 20k mile range...I brought in my e46 with 42k miles for the first brake job and they acted like the car had performed a miraculous feat. Brakedust...don't even get me started.
This is the worst feature of this e90. I know there are pads they could use that mitigates this. I guess I give it up to the same thinking as RFT and electronic dip stick!
Heck, you need to clean the wheels every day to stay ahead!
Regards,
OW
Best Regards,
Shipo
On my E39 I replaced the pads with PBR/Axxis pads after I got tired if cleaning my wheels every couple of hundred miles. With the new pads, I could not feel any difference in braking capabilities, but I did notice a HUGE difference in brake dust, as in NONE.
On a separate subject, I watched a bit of the NASCAR race at Indianapolis this weekend (probably the first NASCAR race I've watched since seeing Richard Petty win the Daytona 500 in 1979). I was stunned to see literally CUPS of brake dust spill out of the wheels as they were being removed in the pits during the race. Now THAT'S brake dust.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Me too. I stick my foot out the door, ala the Flintstones. Shoes wear out very fast though. :confuse
It's actually a pet peeve of mine how often people touch their brakes. I can't comprehend why people always are using their brakes rather than allowing vehicles to naturally slow. I'm not talking about massive engine braking either. There's a great sweeping 270 degree freeway exchange I use on the way to work; I look forward to that ramp when I'm the point man as it says 25 but 50 is cake in my car.
I've found if I'm not at the head of the pack I just stop touching the gas a good 1/4 of a mile before the ramp. Initially the leading cars pull ahead as they stay at 65-75 until the reach the start of the ramp but I know that slowing from 75-80 I will inevitably still catch up to all the hard-brakers on the ramp. If I'm lucky they've made it to the top and I can hit 50 going 'round the bend and catch them merging. Either way, my brakes don't get touched.
On the other hand, perhaps it leads to more brake dust!!
Regards,
OW
Except Porsche.JD Powers
However, on a purely personal and anecdotal basis, I would concur that Lexus, while at or near the top in quality and reliability, does not appear to have a good reputation with respect to handling problems when they do arise.
I was all set to write a check in December 2004 for a GX470. Upon further checking with the several couples we knew that had one, 2 had annoying drivetrain vibrations that, after several attempts, Lexus failed to correct. The dealers and Lexus then went into "it's normal" mode, suggesting to one that they "get over it". I rode in that car and it shook more than a 30 year old Buick at 65 mph. Ultimately, both of these couples had their cars bought back from Lexus, but it took several months and the filing of lawsuits. During that time, communication with customer service was "like dealing with the phone company". When I also checked in Edmunds forums, this GX470 drivetrain vibration problem was fairly common and went on for at least the full 2005 model year. We ended up buying an MDX, so I stopped checking.
My only need to voice a complaint with Porsche was when I found out Pirelli had stopped manufacturing the OEM rear tires for my 911. Didn't expect much help, but got a call back the next day from a representative asking me where I wanted two shipped from their own stockpile. The price was less than the Tire Rack price.
There is merit in not only looking at what manufacturer has the highest quality and reliability, but also in HOW they handle problems when they arise.
Not many people beleive me when I claim that Lexus has problems with Corporate and attitude. Maybe I will take it to the dealer and wear a hidden camera to prove my point. But them again, they would just blame that dealer.
Perfectly stated!
My engine didn't work correctly on my 03 330i - it stuttered at 4k rpm WOT - yet I've purchased two more BMWs products since. The car's ECU blew at one point and they had the car for 2 weeks. Throughout the ownership experience I had issues with electrical failures too. That's not including the parts broken upon delivery, failed fuses and various other issues with the car.
My e90 arrived with a jacked up HVAC system that required many trips to the dealership to resolve. Eventually, BMW had to replace the entire HVAC system in a car that wasn't even 1 year old.
Neither of those cars' issues played on my decision to get another BMW product (my Cooper's got its share of problems too but none are worth the hassle of a trip to the dealer). And in the future I'll likely buy BMW again.
I really don't see the big deal with what you described above. Certainly nothing that warrants a "dontbuylexus" name.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I've had a few cars with many issues and yet I'm not burning down BMW because of it. My engine and electrical issues were NEVER resolved by BMW. They essentially told me I could live with the engine stutter or they could disable the cams so the engine topped out sooner.
Now here is my But,
At some point you have to voice your opinion and move on. By constantly attacking one company as all bad and saying that another (BMW in this case) is all good, just makes you look bad.
Your brake example is very flawed. Lexus does not have a flaw, but has a product that may have a lot of break dust. My Audi also had a lot of break dust. Lexus owners voiced their opinion and Lexus provides a solution:
"Some Lexus vehicles are equipped with high-friction front brake pads, specifically designed for superior braking performance and response. As a result, under certain conditions, it is possible for the customer to experience a larger volume of brake dust on the wheels.
For customers who find these characteristics objectionable, an alternative brake pad material has been developed. As with any change made to brake pad material, braking
performance and feeling may be altered and could possibly be reduced under certain driving conditions as a result of their usage.
These alternative front brake pads have now been made available as service parts."
I see this as a positive of a company saying that there is an alternative to the high-performance system if you want it. In your logic, Lexus is bad because they provide a solution to a cosmetic item that many cars share. Others on this board has commented on BMW producing a lot of brake dust.
Check out the BMW forums and you will see plenty of people that are just like you saying to run from BMW. Do you think they are right about BMW or are you just selective in your beliefs.
I freely admit that Lexus has some bad examples and both Dealers and Corporate have their share of issues. Guess what - so does BMW, Honda, Mercedes, et al.
"Lexus is a baby Enron in my opinion."
I hope you know that with comments like this; it ensures that you are not taken seriously. I do need a laugh - please share how Lexus and Enron are similar.
You said the internet is the only truth. I would love to compare complaints on Club Lexus vs Bimmer Fest and see if there are more complaints about one brand versus the other. I guess BMW would not fair so well in your method of finding out the truth. Love that cooling system.
The key is what will the company do for you when there is a problem. If BMW (dealers and corporate) handled the service and warranty of my Lexus IS250, I would be completely satisfied. They would've checked into the brake issue and pulled it up on the computer, showed it to me and said "here I see that there is a TSIB on it. would you like to leave it today or make an appiontment for us to change out the brakes for you?" They would've without question, replaced the rear window when the radio antenna failed (I had to take Lexus to NCDS for that one) and they would charge me a fair price for the service.
The same week that I bought a Maxima, I found that it had a crack in the exhaust manifold. They ordered the part, replaced it and paid for my rental without blinking an eye. Lexus (Toyota luxury line) blames my driving on an issue that they have in their computer already, goes to arbitration on a rear window risking a lemon buyback.
Lexus Corporation, not the car, is evil, BWM corp is great. the rest is pointless. just like shipo said, he had a major issue with his 328i, but one quick pop into BMW and poof it is gone. that is an honorable company to me.