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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Wow, I am deeply regret that the IS350 has broken your fairy tale told from bunch of Lexus execs.

    Hopefully the Santa Clause is still coming this year...

    It was suppose to be a joke if you don't get it...
  • I do NOT think BMW is somehow invicible at "their game".

    In the new C&D comparo of luxury performance cars, M45 edges out 550i, price dependent. Price independent, 550 edges out M45. M has considerable power deficit. The two cars bringing up the rear are E550 and GS450h.

    G35 and 335i probably will be closely matched, price dependent or not. So BMW is not invincible to Infiniti, probably invincible to everyone else!
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,730
    "Invincible" is in the wallet of the beholder... ;)

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Although I don't think BMW is invicible, I'm not ready to concede that anyone yet has a better small sports sedan (335i) or mid size sports sedan (550i 6-speed) when it comes to the driving enthusiast's preferences.

    I've driven the Infiniti M45 and, IMO, it isn't even close to the 550i, not to mention that it only comes with a slushbox transmission option.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    anyone yet has a better small sports sedan (335i) or mid size sports sedan (550i 6-speed) when it comes to the driving enthusiast's preferences.

    Agreed.

    With price independent and driving dynamics as the number one priority BMW is still hands down the benchmark in the segments.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    That was a quote I got from my local BMW dealer with all the upgrades like rims/tires. I had every available option on it pal. Maybe they are getting over MSRP here or hoping I'm a sucker ???? :confuse:

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    No offense here but when you march into a dealership and ask for every avalaible option out there (especially accessaries) you do look like a sucker...

    Even though we all know you are not.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "That was a quote I got from my local BMW dealer with all the upgrades like rims/tires. I had every available option on it pal."

    Poseur car, plain and simple. :P

    "Maybe they are getting over MSRP here or hoping I'm a sucker ????"

    Ummm, if the shoe fits...

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Where's the Jaguar x-type in this mix? Since Ford has taken over the shop, Jaguar has excelled. Their quality issues have mostly been resolved, and their engineering is top-drawer.

    I have yet to see any Lexus that can match even the lower-end Jaguar interiors for refinement, and luxury.

    Plus Jaguar has more of a world-wide audience than any Lexus (where is Lexus in Europe, the birthplace of the entry-level, small luxury sedan)?

    Check out the current X or S type Jaguars, and you will definitely not be disappointed. Buy one and you will not regret not buying a Lexus / BMW / MB.

    /DA
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,692
    Where's the Jaguar x-type in this mix?

    uhhhh... the keyword to this discussion is "performance."

    Let us know when the X-type comes even close to a performance sedan and maybe it could be considered for inclusion.

    Buy one and you will not regret not buying a Lexus / BMW / MB.

    ... until resale time.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Check out the current X or S type Jaguars, and you will definitely not be disappointed. Buy one and you will not regret not buying a Lexus / BMW / MB."

    You can't be serious. While Jaguar has done some nice cars from a stylistic perspective, they haven't been world class in the driving dynamics department since the late/great XKE, the X-Type (a wannabe ELLPS) even less so.

    Before I got my 2002 530i I took a spin in a gorgeous S-Type, and as much as I LOVED how it looked, I felt like I was driving my Mom's Cadillac. Ewwwww. Well, it wasn't actually that bad, but "ewwwww" none-the-less. Last year I drove an X-Type (even though I find it the ugly duckling of the Jaguar lineup) on the same day as I drove an IS350, an A4 and A3, a Saab SportCombi 2.0T and a 330i. From a driving dynamics perspective, the only car that was worse (but not by much) than the X-Type was the Saab.

    True, from a quality control perspective, Ford seems to have helped Jaguar out a lot, however, from a design perspective; things are pretty much a disaster. Said another way, I really don't believe that Jaguar has a car that truly competes with other cars in the "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" arena.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    It wasn't quite every accessory, but I did want some upgrades which probably drove the price up their.

    So you guys say I could get a navi 335i with a stick for under $44,000 ?

    Is the "active steering" not as good as the editors say. The other downside of navigation is that stupid i-drive which accompany's the navi. :sick:

    I'd consider a 335i as a choice because I really like the car alot. I know I sound like a "hater" but actually I respect the car. 0-60 in 4.8 is something I respect. I'd of course would want a sedan in that cool
    "Blue color" :shades: I basically would want my car to be a high-speed grand tourer. I'll have to check into it further I suppose. Can you build them on the BMW site yet ? I guess I can check, right ? ;)

    Rocky
  • Active Steering = worthless junk. you pay $1200 to have artifical-feeling steering, odd ratios at low speeds and zero resale value with only the possibility of expensive repairs.

    As for 335i with manual and navi... build it on BMWUSA.com. Seems to me that's totally possible. Even without ED. Now if you want extras like the premium package ($2200 for bluetooth, dimming mirrors, a garage door opener and leather...ripoff?), the price is gonna jump.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    blue,

    I just built one pal. $51,240. That was every option excluding active steering. :cry: :sick:

    I could afford a car like this since they do hold their resale and a lease might not hurt all that bad. I'm not sure if it is worth that much dough personally to me. I like navigation since I do travel and plan on much more here in the near future. Even taking off Navi/i-drive I'm still looking at $49K. You are right that if you click the option buttons it adds up really fast. I'm like this....I can save at least $10K+ and get 90-95% of the performance of the 335i in a Infiniti G35, or wait for the CTS-V and still pay less or around the same.

    The 335i, is a nice car for people that have bigger wallets than me. I don't want to sacrifice "gadgets" when I can get them on others for alot less when I click the option box.

    Rocky
  • blue,

    I just built one pal. $51,240. That was every option excluding active steering.


    I just built one for 43k - 335i sedan, leatherette, ZSP (sports package), navigation system. 44.5k with leather.

    I really don't understand how someone can get to 50k with this car. You really have to add a lot of dubious gadgets to the car to reach that kinda price.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Unless you plan on keeping that Cadillac 10+ years, it will take a much bigger bite out of your wallet than the BMW when you factor in resale.

    Personally, I can't bring myself to pay ANY amount of money for a car that doesn't have build quality, fit and finish and exterior/interior styling that at least meets my minimum requirements (which are admittedly high). GM/Chrysler/Ford fail on all counts. Back when I had my $32k Honda S2000, a guy I was golfing against in a club tournament joked that if I beat him, he would give me the keys to his Viper in exchange for my S2000's. I beat him, but wasn't joking when I turned down the offer.

    If you can stomach a Cadillac, that's your perogative. But I am quite certain my 911S Cabriolet has cost me less in the first year of depreciation than a Caddy would have. And I expect that to be the case for at least the next 2-3 years. Factoring in 3-4 year depreciation, a 335i would be a bargain compared to the Caddy.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You went overboard, I built mine for $45K which has a few more options than the 330 which MSRPd for $41K. Seems reasonable to me. I didn't pick the $4,000 alloy wheels option. Did you?
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    I agree with you on the X Type. At its price point, the X offers standard AWD, 5 speed automatic, a huge trunk, a lovely interior, and classic styling. Build quality is second to none. It'll hit 60 in 7.1 seconds, gets 24 MPG, and will hit its electronically limited top speed with no sweat. Handling is excellent for a heavy AWD car. I'm on my second X-Type - recently swapped an 03 2.5 for an 06 3.0 model. Have found the X to be a supurb long distance touring car, and, capable of handling heavy rain and snow with no drama at all. Yeah - its competitors don't depreciate as badly, but, they all cost a hell of a lot more money up front to get them off the dealer's lot.

    Just my 2 cents:
    Oldengineer
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The knee situation in the back of the 335i is actually decent. It's the headroom that's the problem. I think you have to be about 5' 7" or under to fit back there without having the roof interfere with the coconut. But that's the price paid for a lower sleeker car.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    oldcem: Build quality is second to none.

    me: well in 2004 it sure wasn't. I picked up a brand-new X-Type in the fall of '04. By Feb. of this year, I had a rust-stain running down the right side of the rear license plate. I believe the rust was coming from one of the mounting points (holes) for the chrome "Jaguar" plate in the middle of the trunk. Maybe a one-time problem, but it was partially responsible for me getting rid of it.

    On another note, I was reading the Nov. R&T article on upcoming cars. It looks like Nissan and Toyota will be using 350hp V-6's in the Z-car and resurrected Supra in 2008. I would guess these similarly tuned engines will find their way into Infiniti and Lexus.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    It is odd that the engine performance was downgraded to 230HP vs. 255HP on the xi models. What's up with that? the 5's in'07 have the 255 hp in all versions of the six. Looks like they are repositioning the two lines re: engine pecking order.

    Saw a 335i coupe last Friday and it looks sweet. Look forward to see the first sedan live.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    I was a U.S. ONLY guy until I couldn't take it anymore. I can not fault anyone for moving international because greed (mgmt. AND labor) has finally paid off big time for GM and Ford. DCX is global really, and the other 2 are in line at the bank for the same.

    When I test drove the G35 coupe, it was great but my 12 year old daughter had to crouch down in the rear seat. Handled great, was fast but interior like a nissan did not leave goose bumps.

    When I test drove the 330xi, I learned what a true driver's car was like. I felt the price higher than I was used to but negotiated like everyone else and glad I went with this car.

    GM or Ford should really pair up with Toyota or BMW so we can cross-germinate some of this engineering. It's all about balance and knowing wht customers want in each target segment. BMW does a really good job of that and also for the tuner group in all of the series. Great stuff! DCX is getting this right now with the SRT line. I drove the SRT-8 300 and what a blast! for mid-40's, it was tempting but the residual is a real body-blow! I'm sniffing a Z06 now!
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "GM or Ford should really pair up with Toyota or BMW so we can cross-germinate some of this engineering. It's all about balance and knowing wht customers want in each target segment. BMW does a really good job of that and also for the tuner group in all of the series."

    One of the reasons why BMW and Porsche do this so well is because they are small companies - not part of a mega-corporation with other financial stakes. This is what allows them to build pure driver cars, not necessarily cars that Hertz will buy a fleet of.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    Even more interesting is that the '07 X3 will be rated at 260hp with the 3.0L. I think that's going to be in the $38K range.

    Also since you know what the '06 G35 was like, check out the redesigned '07 when it's out, and let us know if you think the interior has been improved much. An AWD G35 discounted to say $30K could be a good deal. Now if they just put that 350hp engine in it, from the Z-car in '08.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I don't want a second rate car with Pleather or as BMW calls it a fancy name
    Leatherette. My god they can't put the real stuff in a $40K+ car without charging you
    a arm and a leg ?

    The Cadillac CTS, I'm considering is the all-new 2008' model which will rival or exceed the 335i. The 500-600 hp. CTS-V when you compare it to a loaded up 335i looks
    like the deal of the decade. BTW- Even the current CTS's have a great resale, and I'm not some yuppie that needs a badge to feel confident about myself. BMW, flat out
    is living off it's past glory days when they built about the only "Ultimate Driving Machine". Currently there are very competitive alternatives with price tags $5-10
    and even $15K cheaper than a 335i and one (adult) doesn't have to sit in a back-seat
    with their knees around their ears.


    I'm glad you admitted only a 5'7 person would fit in the back seat. That wouldn't work for me since I and most of my family are over 6 ft. tall.

    Rocky
  • dandrews1dandrews1 Posts: 184
    Well, an XKE is a great car, but this thread was about entry level - the BMW 5 series is a bit above what could arguably be called entry level (it starts @ 58,600$ Canadian up here, with the 525i @ 215 HP, and pretty bare on the accessories.)

    Equip the 5 series with a decent engine, some good packages, and you're starting to look at it in the CA$80k + range (for the 530xi model)

    Compare that to a Jaguar X-type 3.0 sport, which comes pretty much loaded @ ~CA$53k.

    If you're looking at the S-type, I am kind of iffy on the design queues on that one... but can't argue with what it is - a marketing device meant to fill the void between the X-type and the XJ / XK level. (Apologies to any S-type lovers out there, but that's just my personal opinion.. I don't see the point in getting the S-type with the X-type available.. from my perspective, either fork out for the XJ, or keep your pennies with the X-type).

    I'll eat my words for one exception to the S-type family - the S-Type R. It's a monster. 400 HP, and smooth as silk. I had the pleasure of getting to take a test drive in one of these... pretty much no words to describe how much I love driving this car. BUT, I would rather have the XJR for about CA$15k more, or the XKR, whenever that becomes available up here.

    In the end, it may all wind up being a matter of personal choice. I see BMW's everywhere (I live in the same town as BMW's Canadian headquarters) and nobody looks twice because they are so common now. IMHO, all their cars look alike (the 3, 5 and to some degree, 7 all look like slightly longer, or shorter versions of the same car) and I'm getting really sick on them... but a Jaguar turns heads everywhere it goes - resale value notwithstanding.

    /DA
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    In my book, BMWs are headturners. Jaguar with the exception of the Jaguars of the bygone era are nothing special to look at. Nobody around here even gives them a second look. I used to live in a town where people yawned when they saw Ferraris on the street. So I guess it all depends on what you are used to seeing.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The CTS has the best interiors in the class. I prefer it to Acura and Lexus. It also has a lot of room. But that's about where it ends. Caddy has come a long way in build quality, but it handles like a barge. The V is only going to make it fast in a straight line.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    The CTS has the best interiors in the class. I prefer it to Acura and Lexus.

    You need to update your prescription pal. :P

    It also has a lot of room

    Yes and the 2008 I believe stretched 3 more inches. :)

    But that's about where it ends. Caddy has come a long way in build quality, but it handles like a barge. The V is only going to make it fast in a straight line.

    The 2008' will handle light years better than the current one pal. The V handles as well as any BMW 3 and it's bit larger. The 2008' or 2009' "V" will be a world class sport sedan we domestic buyer will be proud to show-off :shades:

    Rocky
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Dude, every time you spout this type of bilge about a vaporware car you loose substantial credibility. If (and that's a big IF) Cadillac should somehow manage to cobble together a competitive car at some point in the future then you and lots of other folks can make all sorts of noise. In the meantime, please, spare us the rhetoric; it is both annoying and completely irrelevant to this discussion.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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