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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • I thought the last gen G was more feminine than the new one.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Agree....I've seen a car mag (autoweek?) test the S60R's 0-60 time in 5.4 seconds. Is that still slow ? :surprise:

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    You forgot the 1991 GMC syclone 0-60 in 4.6 and the 1992-93 GMC Typhoon 0-60 in 5.3 straight from the factory. ;)

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989

    a 335D sounds very interesting. Hmmmmm :surprise: You say it's going to be faster yet. :surprise: Holy Smokes ! I wonder how much more the diesel is going to cost ?

    It will be worth looking at especially if it get 35+ MPG and its faster yet. :surprise:

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Does anyone have further details?

    Not good news. BMW diesels won't be coming here in the near future.

    From Reuters, Nov. 22

    While Volkswagen and Mercedes already sell diesels in the U.S. market, BMW has no plans to do so any time soon and declines to use the BLUETEC name, currently being used to help sell Mercedes-Benz E 320s that run on ultra low sulphur diesel in the U.S.

    The world's biggest premium carmaker [BMW], a fierce rival of DaimlerChrysler's luxury Mercedes brand, first wants to develop a urea-based technology to reduce nitrogen oxides before considering a sustained entry into the U.S. diesel market.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    When I first heard about this I thought to myself BMW won't go for this. They aren't going to work with Mercedes, VW and Audi on anything if they can help it. Cost is the only reason they took at seat at the hybrid table with them. That and their general don't care attitude about hybrids so they figure they'll let the others do most of the work and if it doesn't work about the loss will be minimal.

    I just knew BMW wasn't going to to participate here and use a Mercedes thought up name on one of their cars! Hell to the no!

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    That's a loss for us for sure.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    the S60R's 0-60 time in 5.4 seconds. Is that still slow ?

    Compare to the benchmark (335i)... Yes.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    The Benchmark is 4.6 seconds set by the Cadillac CTS-V. I could take a nap waiting for 60 mph to hit in the 335i :P

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Rocky, for the last f****** time, CTS-V is NOT an entry-level lux performance sedan. Just like the M3 and C-class AMG are not as well. When the Lexus IS500 comes out (if it does) it also would NOT be consider as one.

    What are the cars in this class? Please refer to the list on top of the board (Except the Saab 9-3 IMO. I would put the S60R in that place if one must).
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989

    Well if the CTS-V isn't a entry-level/luxury sedan then the 335i isn't either. The entry-level luxury car should be the BMW 328. ;) I also want to know how you became the judge of the forum of what is and what isn't a entry-lux car ? :surprise:

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    How many of y'all think that CTS-V is an entry lux performance sedan and how many of y'all think that the 335i is one?

    My opintion:
    CTS-V NO
    335i YES
  • test the S60R's 0-60 time in 5.4 seconds. Is that still slow ?

    Yes. That's the last generation's numbers. The new mark is sub 5 seconds. :D
  • Agreed. CTS-V is positioned against the M5 not 3 series which is the benchmark for the class.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    The STS-V is positioned against the M5, The CTS-V is closer in size to the M3/335i

    I think it boils down to this....You guys are anti-gm and just because GM, makes a faster better performing car than BMW's 335i, y'all will say it doesn't compete. The funny thing is the CTS-V is the same size as the G35 and Acura TL, both of which you guys say competes with the 335i. :confuse:

    Leave your bias at home and recognize BMW, gets its butt handed to it on a Wreath and Crest platter. :mad:

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well lets see what the AWD 335xi runs 0-60 ;)

  • could get a base 335 for 39k and change. You can't get a base CTSv for less than 50. Just going off sticker. RLee, your all over the place, and not making sense as usual. Keep up the good work.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,698
    that's tough ... but my answer would be the same for both, regardless of what that answer is.

    Why should size matter? The CTS is the smallest Caddy available, therefore its their entry-level car.

    If we wanted to get real strict, then we'd exclude the S60 we've been talking about because the S40 is slotted beneath it. Likewise, the TL is excluded because the TSX exists. So where is the line?

    Is it size? Is it price? Is it where it falls in the manufacturers lineup?

    There are more cars here besides the 335i, folks. Not everything needs to be measured against that car. Some folks don't want to spend $40k on a car that size. End of story.

    If I were to decide this talk includes the entry-level car from each luxo manufacturer, then, yes, the CTS is included. However, this also means the TL and S60 are excluded. If we decide all engine options for each car are included, then, yes, the 335i is allowed, as well as the CTS-V.

    HOWEVER, if we decide on a price cap, that could be a whole different story. It would include multiple entries from the same manufacturer, while excluding some from others. It kind of sounds like that's what some folks are shooting for here.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989

    So now your bringing in prices to justify the 335i. My god talk about being all over the place. Who in the heck is going to buy a $39K 335i with vinyl interior ? $44-45K is what the average 335i buyer will spend. Dude seriously you are the one who doesn't make sense !!!! I can admit when I'm wrong. Some of you have to "spin" other peoples responses to justify to yourself worth ?

    I'm not saying the CTS-V is a better all around car to own or drive but the test track results speak for themselves.

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989

    That was the best post on this forum to date IMHO.

    Thank-you ;)

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Rocky, go home do some homework and get your fact straight before coming here and comparing apples to oranges.

    Entry Lux Performance Sedans:

    Acura - TL
    Audi - A4 2.0T/3.0
    BMW - 3 Series (335i/328i)
    Caddy - CTS 2.8/3.6
    Infiniti - G35
    Lexus - IS350/250
    MB - C280/350

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Entry Lux Sedan:

    Acura - No entry (I don't think TL-S should be in this category)
    Audi - RS/S4
    BMW - M3
    Caddy - CTS-V
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - Currently no entry (IS500 in the future)
    MB - C63 AMG

    Midesize Luxury Performance Sedans:

    Acura - RL
    Audi - A6
    BMW - 5 Series
    Caddy - STS
    Infiniti - M35/45
    Lexus - GS350/430/450h
    MB - E-class

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Midsize Lux Sedan:

    Acura - No entry
    Audi - S6 (is there a RS6?)
    BMW - M5
    Caddy - STS-V
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - No entry
    MB - E63 AMG

    Luxury Sedans:

    Acura - No Entry
    Audi - A8
    BMW - 7 Series
    Caddy - No Entry
    Infiniti - Q45
    Lexus - LS460/600h
    MB - S-class

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Luxury Sedan:

    Acura - No entry
    Audi - S8
    BMW - Currently no entry. However, heard that M7 is around the corner.
    Caddy - No entry
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - No entry
    MB - S63 AMG

    Now can we move on?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    louiswei is correct, however, a small chip in the 335 will probably make the CTS-V look like a snail. I'd be able to get a whole nights sleep and wake up refreshed. BTW was that time going downhill with wind at the CTS' tail?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,698
    I don't completely disagree with what you are getting at, but this is not specified in the top of the discussion.

    An M3 is still a 3-series, is it not? Yet the top of the discussion says "3-series" and not "3-series minus the M3."

    And, yes, I know there is no M3 RIGHT NOW. But there was and will be.

    As for your list, where is the TSX I pointed out in my post? Yeah, its a 4-cylinder, I know. But the mags and many owners seem to think its a sports sedan, regardless.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    If the V model is included the M3 has to be as well.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Is it size? Is it price? Is it where it falls in the manufacturers lineup?

    It's not all about size, not all about price and not all about where it falls in the manufacturers' lineup. It's about where does it fall in the market.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    rockylee you have got to stop this nonsense about the CTS-V. Compared to the 335i it falls short in every performance category. Plus it costs $15K more than a base 335i.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,698

    which is why I question where the line is. Why the 335, but not M3? Why the CTS but not CTSV?

    If we exclude the top models like the V and M, then why are we allowing any kind of engine options? Should we only be discussing the TRUE ENTRY LEVEL vehicle in this discussion that we have named "ENTRY-LEVEL" vehicles??

    It would make for a boring discussion however. How enthusiastic can we be about the 328 vs IS250 vs TSX? Not very.

    So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    The fact remains it doesn't take a aftermarket chip for the Cadillac CTS-V to hand both the BMW 335i and M3 it's [non-permissible content removed].

    Y'all can spin it anyway y'all want to feel good. If GM, loses a comparo I give the other company a congrats. Take it like a man, and move on...good grief. :confuse:

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,698
    But honestly ... and this is not just directed at you rocky ... who the heck CARES???

    If I wanted something based STRICTLY on performance, I'd get a crotch rocket and put everything on this board to shame!

    As shoppers, especially shoppers in this category, we are looking for far more than performance numbers dictate.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.

    I don't know what I am onto but I think this board is dedicated to the regular models of the entry lux performance sedans. Whether it's 328i/335i or IS250/350. I think the M, -V and AMG are all special factory tuned models which should be in a class of their own.

    Like I said before, the market decides where does a car fall. For example, how many of y'all actually considered the M3, CTS-V and C55 AMG while shopping for your entry lux performance sedan. I know I didn't, my final 2 are IS350 and 330i. The M3 didn't even come across my mind. However, that's just me.

    blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?
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