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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The funny thing is the CTS-V is the same size as the G35 and Acura TL, both of which you guys say competes with the 335i.

    Since the M3 is about the same size as the Civic Coupe why don't we compare these 2 a well?

    M6 is about the same size as the Accord coupe and Solara we should put these 3 in the same class too right?

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,692
    And your thoughts of excluding those are what I'm referring to when I say you may be onto something. However, its not specified in the topic description.

    What we are still missing from the definition, however, is why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The fact remains it doesn't take a aftermarket chip for the Cadillac CTS-V to hand both the BMW 335i and M3 it's [non-permissible content removed].

    You did see those Nurburing numbers I showed you yesterday right? CTS-V is 8 seconds slower than the last gen M3. I think it's clear who handed who's [non-permissible content removed].
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,692
    what you are missing is that he is answering the claim that the CTS competes with the 5-series and not the 3-series.

    And this is still the issue I posted above. We are allowing SOME mid-sizers but not others. It makes no sense.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).

    I don't think Acura designed the TL to compete against the 5er and E-class. TL's main targets are 3er, IS and G and that's why even though it has the size advantage it is still considered as a entry lux performance sedan.

    Acura uses the 2-entry-model-sedan lineup with the TSX and TL just like the ES/IS combo for Lexus. However, that doesn't mean that TSX is the entry lux and TL is the midsize lux. It's just the strategy Acura decided to pursuit.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Ditto the TL. It's not all about size in this class. Some are bigger and some are smaller but ultimately the market will decide which class does it fall. I think most people in Cadillac will agree with me that their intention with CTS is to compete against the 3er but not the 5.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Again, where's the luxury of the civic coupe and accord ?

    Nice spin !!!!

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Again, where's the luxury of the civic coupe and accord ?

    I am just following your line of thought since you are comparing size to size.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I thought we were talking 0-60 times and remember you are taking a M3 coupe against a CTS-V sedan ;)

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well I was using the size reference to defend the CTS vs. 335i arguement saying the TL, G35, are about the same size. You made the reference that the CTS-V competes with the 5 series and not the 3. I pointed out it was Cadillacs intention to use the STS-V against the BMW M5, is all.

  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    Trying to answer your question, I found blueguy's post where he states: I believe MSG 6702 or something...

    Manual transmission as standard equipment
    Suspension tuning with an emphasis on handling over ride quality
    Driver-oriented interior
    Smaller size - ideally a compact but that's getting tougher to find.
    RWD preferable, with FWD as passable and AWD if one really must.

    I would add:
    Price range between 30-45k
    No "supped up" cars like the M, AMG, V, S (4,6 or 8) or R
    220hp +
    Luxury nameplate
    Size- should fit 4 adults comfortably (and yes you can fit 2 adults in the backseat of a 3er or IS)

    Feel free to add....
  • I think it boils down to this....You guys are anti-gm and just because GM, makes a faster better performing car than BMW's 335i, y'all will say it doesn't compete. .

    At a starting price of over 52k, the CTS-V no more competes against the 38k 335i than the M3 competes against the MKZ.

    Different classes of cars.

  • blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?</I.

    No, they only had the coupe. Had the e46 M3 sedan been available, I would have bought one and that would have been that. I wanted something in the size and price range of a 3 series (sub 45k with both cars in the past 4 years).
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well to get all the equipment the CTS-V has in a BMW 335i it will take you $50K+.

    So price is the determining factor of what stays and what goes ?

    Well a $23K Acura TSX vs a $39K BMW 335i is then 2 different classes of cars also. So where do we draw the line ? How many $39K BMW 335i's are their going to be made ?

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Well, that's why you don't see TSX on top of the board...Personally I think TSX is an awesome car and if I was $10K short on the budget when I was shopping for a car TSX would be my #1 choice. However, the lack of power just make it not competitive enough to be included in this category.

    As for the $39K 335i...It doesn't matter how many of them are going to be made the bottom line is that if one wants a stripped down based 335i (still comes with 300hp, 300 lb-ft twin turbo inline 6), he/she can have it. On the other hand, Rocky, can you find me a CTS-V for $40K? I really don't want the leather seat, sun roof, upgraded radio, navigation and I'll take the 17" wheel. Can you get me a stripped down CTS-V?
  • Well said Rocky.

    You who say the Lincoln MKZ does not belong in this forum are extremely narrow minded and leads me to believe that your opinions are flawed and biased. Go try a MKZ, compare it. I test drove it again today, the car is absolutely luxurious, with speed and style. That 263hp engine gives a lot of power and acceleration. It beats out the BMW and MB hands down when considering Luxury,Performance,options,price equally. It may not have a stick yet, may never will, but should not be excluded here based on that. There was no rule set about the stick just someones opinion, and this car should get mentioned here. I strongly believe the list in this forum should include the MKZ, along side any BMW 328xi, MB C230, Caddie CTS and Volvo S60R. You are doing your readers an injustice by keeping other manufacturers reputations hyped while Ford has outdone itself and deserves a place here. Go drive a MKZ, then again stubborn people will never admit they are wrong even when faced with the facts. The MKZ is a great entry level LUXURY performance sedan ! price $35K MSRP fully loaded with all options.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as a opponent. w/e :sick:

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Ford has outdone itself and deserves a place here

    You nailed it right on the point. With the MKZ Ford has outdone itself but still light years behind the pack. BTW, it's really not that hard for Ford to outdo itself. Especially for the Lincoln brand.

    Let me ask you this, so you have driven the MKZ, fine. What other cars have you driven before? Do you have any experience to get behind the wheel of a 330i/335i? an IS350? a G35 (last gen or current gen)? or a TL? If you have do you mind to share the experience with us so we'll have an idea on how competitive the MKZ is comparing to the other usual suspects.

    Also, what cars have you driven before in your life? Just out of curiosity.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as a opponent.

    So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as NOT an opponent. :confuse:
  • rocky, we've been over this.

    335i sedan
    Premium pack
    Sport pack

    46k msrp

    CTS-V with gas guzzler and sport shocks = 54k
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989

    Well said....I gotta laugh my butt off to the BMW lovers that say the new G35's seats are to narrow or the interior is feminine. :D BMW, finally delivers a car that lives up to the hype in the 335i. So now you have BMW fans coming out of the wood work to brag that they have a competitive sedan. The funny thing is they want to set the boundaries on price, size, and competition. We call it stacking the deck where I come from. If that's what it takes to win or be considered the best, I personally couldn't hold my head high.

  • Well a $23K Acura TSX vs a $39K BMW 335i is then 2 different classes of cars also.

    There is no such thing as a 23k TSX. The TSX starts at 28,090 -

    Honestly, stop making things up.
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    Am I the only one who thinks the interior of the MKZ is awful? Admittedly, I haven't sat in one but from pictures the center of the dash looks terrible. For me the benchmark of cars interior is an Audi.

    Also, does anyone else feel that a Lincoln is less prestigious than a BMW or Lexus?
  • Also, does anyone else feel that a Lincoln is less prestigious than a BMW or Lexus?

    Cars are either passable (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, VW/Audi, BMW, Nissan/infiniti, Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai) or on the fringe:

    GM products
    Mopar products
    Ford products
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I'm pulling $53,745 as built if I was to buy one

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    What's freaken matter, my point was the TSX, and the 335i have a significant gap in price.

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    Test drove the '06 G35 coupe and felt the same cramped feel. My 11 yr. old daughter was in the back seat and she had to hunch down to prevent her head from touching the rear glass!

    Also, experienced great handling but the wind noise and seat-of-the-pants feel was not solid at all.

    Real fast, however.

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989

    That's still pretty stripped down. Hell you don't even get heated seats :D

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Am I the only one who thinks the interior of the MKZ is awful?

    I wouldn't say the the MKZ interior is "awful" but it's definitly the worst in it's class.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401

    The CTS-V is a great car for a high performance offering from the one of the big 3. I have huge doubts about long-term wear and tear costs vs. comparable high-performance models from Japan and Germany.

    It's in the parts bin quality and engineering. Nice car but let's compare all aspects of the experience to own.

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