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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "(TSX is a European family sedan--i.e. Accord)."

    Talk about opening a can of worms...

    The TSX is arguably the nimblest, sportiest, most fun-to-drive car in this segment - even if it no longer competes in the HP war. In spirit and driving dynamics, it's the closest thing to an E30 that you can buy today.
  • Acura needs to drop the RDX's engine in the TSX. Great little car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You want that thing to get 11 mpg?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You forgot the Volvo S60.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    What a fantastic package that would be. Honda will never do it though - can't let the TSX out-handle AND out-accelerate the TL.
  • ? The RDX weighs almost 4k lbs and is a bit rough in the wind. but still gets 19/23. The tsx comes under 3300 lbs...I'd expect 22/28 or so with that turbo.
  • certainly give the tsx a bump in fun. i liked that car in all ways but acceleration.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    ....11 mpg...yeppers. It is a very thirsty engine.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Comptech will fix that problem for about $4,000. Their supercharger system adds 50 WHP and is covered by factory warranty.
  • Could somone more talented than I post the images comparing the Lincoln MKZ to the BMW 328xi interior and exterior. I tried to do a screen capture and save it as an attachment but it would not paste. I have attached their image links below so that everyone could see for themselves how awful it looks:

    Lincoln MKZ interior link

    Lincoln MKZ exterior link

    BMW 328xi exterior link

    Yes, I have driven the BMW 328xi and the MB C230, they don't meet up to the MKZ's Luxury, performance, options, and most of all the price for what you get. The BMW and MB are wonderful cars, but the MKZ is a better car for your money-bottom line. Too bad you don't want to admit it.
  • My point is even with automatic transmission the Lincoln MKZ still outperforms, has more luxury,better options and a better price than the BMW 328xi and the MB C230. If you could do a comparison-overall which beats which make and model. Do a kind of better of three evils comparison for me, just humor me and I will stop posting here after this unless Rocky and Plekto want me to stay to give my .02 cents once in a while. Most expensive car to date I have driven has been with a year 2000 M3 with Dynan upgrades and paddle shifters-the owner bragged that there was 600hp under the hood-he did a neutral drop (high revs then put it into first gear) to show me the acceleration-not impressed-had a Corvette with better O-60 speed in an automatic. I thought the M3 was overrated, even the interior in leather was barely acceptable to my standards of comfort/aesthetic appearance considering the actual price paid-but it was a sports package-you can't expect Lincoln MKZ luxury for that price and still get the performance right???...:)
  • 3, A-4 and C are European family sedans, too. How else do you call a four-door car powered by a 2 liter four-ganger or even less in some cases.
  • edwardsfedwardsf Posts: 188
    From Inside Line review of the MKZ:

    "Only a hard-core Lincoln wonk would notice the modified front fascia that arrives with the engine and name change. And we're not sure there are any hard-core Lincoln wonks."

    Wait! I know one, I know one! My man Flash.

    Also, "The overall feel is neutral and competent. It's no BMW 3 Series, nor even an Acura TL, but it handles better than most Lincoln buyers are likely to expect or demand." Ouch Flash.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    In my opinion, the reason why the MKZ doesn't belong in this segment is because of it's DNA.

    The BMW 3-series was designed from the ground up to be a premium, benchmark setting entry-level luxury performance car. Every facet of its design, from engine, suspension, chassis, materials, etc. was conceived for the purpose of making the 3-series the most satisfying car to drive and own in this segment.

    The MKZ, on the other hand, is a "parts-bin creation" conceived by Ford marketing to turn a 5 year-old, $18,000 Mazda6 into a $34,000 "premium sedan."

    Don't get me wrong, I think the Mazda6 is a perfectly competent sedan - a reasonable alternative to the Accord and Camry. I just don't believe that a big V-6 and a sprinkling of pixie dust transforms the Mazda6 into a premium car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I think you have to define what you mean by some of your terms. If your idea of luxury is soft plushy seats vs the bolstering seats on the 3 series you should let us know. If your idea of performance is a mushy Lincoln ride vs the firm ride of the 3 series you should let us know. If your idea of performance is 0 to 60 that too would be a good thing to know. Is performance throwing the car around the curves and driving the car instead of being chauffeured by the car?
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    If I remember correctly, I did state IMHO (= in my honest opinion) when referring to the exterior and interior of the MKZ.

    If that particular offering of Lincoln suits your needs and puts a smile on your face then great! It's your money and you should spend it on what makes you happy. I have absoultely no problems with that and I am not trying to tell you that you made a bad decision.

    However, if you or anyone else wants to compare the driving dynamics of a 328 or a 335 to a MKZ and then say that it doesn't meet up to the performance level of the MKZ is ludicrous.

    Bottom line- the host has excluded the MKZ from this discussion because it just simply does not belong here.

    Happy motoring!
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "My point is even with automatic transmission the Lincoln MKZ still outperforms......than the BMW 328xi and the MB C230"


    "I thought the M3 was overrated, even the interior in leather was barely acceptable to my standards of comfort/aesthetic appearance considering the actual price paid-but it was a sports package-you can't expect Lincoln MKZ luxury for that price and still get the performance right???"

    BMW is in the business of making vehicles for "drivers." They are not in it to provide every gadget and every luxury item in their vehicles like Audi, Lexus, Acura (and the 07 G).
  • Uhhhhh, bud i got news for ya. BMW offers every gadget and luxury item that everyone else does. But yeah, their cars are still a lot more compelling for the enthusiast than a Lincoln.

    I wonder if our friend flash11 is drinking water from the same well as our good friend RockyLee. If so, the damage from the 3 mile island catastrophe continues.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,398
    I suggest that there will be a future for the Lincoln and Caddy in this segment but for now, only the CTS-V belongs, IMO.

    But even at that, the re-sale hit you will take if you actually purchase this beast will kill you each year of ownership, not to mention the high cost of repair with the less than average wear and tear rating.

    The MXZ is even worse for the original buyer but good if you take it off someone who took the initail hit after 2-3 years.

  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "Uhhhhh, bud i got news for ya. BMW offers every gadget and luxury item that everyone else does."

    Agreed. My statement is a little misleading. I was merely trying to point out that BMW's main focus with the 3er is to be a performance sedan- first and foremost-- and then everything else follows.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We need to officially drop the MKZ and CTS-V. So the posts about them stop here.

    Anyone who wants to talk about them and can't find a suitable discussion, please feel free to go the top-level of this board and use the Add a Discussion link to create a new one.

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Talk about the Cadillac CTS-V or Lincoln MKZ, I'll be more than happy to accomodate you at my new board:

    Current and Future-performance oriented domestic & foreign sedans forum ;)

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,666
    Volvo, Jaguar and Lincoln are all luxury nameplates. However, they don't really make entry level luxury PERFORMANCE sedans. (The X-type comes the closest of these 3.)

    YIKES!! I am in absolute awe that anyone thinks the X-type is a better performance car than the S60R.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,666
    valiant effort.

    But, as you saw in some of the posts that followed yours, its not quite that easy to make a list that everyone agrees with or that even every car in a manufacturer's lineup agrees with.

    Now, in my head, when I think of certain manufacturers, my list is very similar to yours. But then I get into the problem of, as one poster mentioned, something like the X-type. It ruins the whole brand, IMHO, and makes them actually span across multiple categories. Same with the A3 to A8 range. And let's not forget the Saab 92x and 97x. So many of them seem to have their skeletons.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    See ya' there.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    rockylee, "2007 Cadillac CTS and CTS-V" #2, 31 Oct 2005 7:45 pm

    BTW I notice you have been predicting the demise of the 3 series for about 1+ years now. Hasn't happened yet, much to your chagrin, I'm sure.
  • You think the A3 hurts the Audi image? Wow. I say a car like that can only help get people to convert to audi. Like the 1 series, I think the A3 is a great entry vehicle for that manu.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We're done talking about the MKZ. I'll be removing off-topic posts from here on (as I just did).
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,666
    Sorry. That came out wrong. The X-type hurts Jag, but, no, the A3 doesn't hurt audi in the same way. It just makes them span categories in the same way.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • piasonpiason Posts: 55
    Looking to purchase the 2007 C230 but wanted to ask a few questions.

    Will this car drive in 2 to 3 inches of snow? Are there all season tires for this car since the front and rear are different sizes?
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