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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • mnrep2mnrep2 Posts: 200
    We were not talking about the 330xi, I was responding to the comment from Dave330i, that the G35x had a weaker suspension. I was asking him, compared to what is it weaker?
  • dave330idave330i Posts: 893
    "Weaker suspension as compared to what?"

    G35x has a weaker suspension compaired to G35.

    AWD is marketing at its best (or worst), since most of the people getting it don't need it.

    "The G35x sits a little higher than the standard rwd G35, but that is so you can go better in deep snow, when your 330i or a TL, are spinning their wheels because their suspension is too low"

    Tell me, how often are you expecting deep snow each year? Maybe 1, 5, 10, or 15 days? For those once in a blue moon days, you're willing to sacrifice performace the rest of the year?
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 119
    It has gotten to the point where I firmly believe anyone disparaging AWD has not owned a performance rear-wheel biased AWD system. Porsche, the world's most prestigious sports car maker offers AWD on their 911...and set the world on fire with the AWD 959 in '86. The Skyline GT-R is legendary...The G35X's system is derived from that experience.

    And in case you wonder from what experience I speak, I have a Top 10 Road Racing plate hanging on my wall, and dislike unnescessary weight as much as the next racer. On a road car in most climates in the US, AWD is a great feature despite the extra weight and has numerous advantages other than just deep snow.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Posts: 200
    dave330i awd is actually very useful for driving in snow and ice. You don't experience that in sunny CA much, but in the Northeast or the midwest awd is not a marketing gimmick. AWD is not just useful in high snow, but hilly icy driveways, left turns across busy streets, you get the idea. AWD offers a substantial traction advantage. For street driving I don't think there is a large advantage from the rwd g35 to the X. Especially for 90% of the drivers out there. If your talking Auto Cross or track performance, then there are advantages to a smaller lighter rwd package. Calling the standard g35x suspension softer than the "sport" G35 suspension is a reasonable comparison.

    However, I was responding to Al57 who is comparing the FWD TL Vs. the g35 and asking for help with his decsion. In snowy regions, my opinion is that the AWD g35x offers handling advantages over the FWD TL. The x is primarily rwd, and does not suffer from torque steer like the TL. In the end buy what you like not what someone on the internet thinks you should buy ;)
  • dave330idave330i Posts: 893
    "It has gotten to the point where I firmly believe anyone disparaging AWD has not owned a performance rear-wheel biased AWD system."

    I wasn't trying to disparage AWD system. I disagree with people who automatically assume they need AWD because it snows on occasion.

    "Porsche, the world's most prestigious sports car maker offers AWD on their 911...and set the world on fire with the AWD 959 in '86."

    And yet they only offer GT2 & GT3 in RWD only. :)

    "On a road car in most climates in the US, AWD is a great feature despite the extra weight and has numerous advantages other than just deep snow."

    I believe right tire is a better choice than AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD for most drivers.

    If you can get better performance with AWD, great. I prefer RWD, and I'll stick with it.
  • dave330idave330i Posts: 893
    "dave330i awd is actually very useful for driving in snow and ice. You don't experience that in sunny CA much, but in the Northeast or the midwest awd is not a marketing gimmick."

    I lived in Northeast until 2000 without AWD just fine.

    "AWD is not just useful in high snow, but hilly icy driveways, left turns across busy streets, you get the idea. AWD offers a substantial traction advantage."

    Again, how often will you expericen bad weather? Even if it's 60 days, that's still 300+ days where RWD will be better than AWD.

    "For street driving I don't think there is a large advantage from the rwd g35 to the X. Especially for 90% of the drivers out there."

    If you're interested in a performance sedan, you should be able to feel the difference between RWD & AWD.

    "However, I was responding to Al57 who is comparing the FWD TL Vs. the g35 and asking for help with his decsion. In snowy regions, my opinion is that the AWD g35x offers handling advantages over the FWD TL."

    I guess I should have been more clear. I was trying to get Al57 to consider G35 as an alternative to G35x or TL.

    "In the end buy what you like not what someone on the internet thinks you should buy."

    Very true.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Posts: 200
    I guess I should have been more clear. I was trying to get Al57 to consider G35 as an alternative to G35x or TL.

    Al57 WAS comparing the rwd g35 to the fwd TL in his post. I was suggesting he consider the x. Sometimes, I think we all rush to type an answer with our not so humble opinions, before really reading what the question was.

    A very good way to compare fwd tl to the g35x is to drive both, especially on snow covered roads this can help you make an educated decision :D End of my not so humble opinion
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Maybe 1, 5, 10, or 15 days? "

    To that way of thinking it's like saying, it's hot only 2 months of the year, why do I need air-conditioning?

    The answer is - if I need it once, it already paid for itself. :)

    "I lived in Northeast until 2000 without AWD just fine."

    I also lived in Sunny CA for a brief stint and admitedly AWD doesn't have much of an advantage there. But in the Northeast in the last 10 years I lost track of the number of times I limped along and was concerned about getting stuck in very deep snow. With AWD getting stuck is no longer a concern unless one does something very, very stupid.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "With AWD getting stuck is no longer a concern unless one does something very, very stupid."

    The same could also be said for any decent car with a good set of winter tires. Many choose to change the odds by opting for an All-Season equiped car with AWD (some things get better, some get worse), while others are willing to spend enough to changed the odds even more by opting for AWD and winter tires.

    Which is best? It depends upon where you live, how you drive and the conditions that you are willing to drive in.

    Consider this; three winters ago my California born and raised wife had never driven in snow in a RWD car in her life (although she did have a little FWD experience). That winter I broke my right leg which prohibited me from driving a car with a manual transmission, and as such the situation required us to swap cars (I just positioned my casted right leg over in the passengers footwell of her car and drove left footed). Wouldn't you know it, that winter here in southern New Hampshire Mother Nature threw 114" of snow at us forcing her to drive my winter tire shod 530i back and forth to work (round trip nearly 70 miles). Through it all she never got stuck, never was unable to make it to work or home, in fact, she never had a single problem, so much so that she threatened to break my other leg when I got out of my cast so that she could keep driving the 5er, snow or no snow.

    With that in mind, I continually have to ask "Why???" when folks insist that they NEED an AWD equipped car "because they live in the north east." Sorry, not buying.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,487
    "...so much so that she threatened to break my other leg when I got out of my cast so that she could keep driving the 5er, snow or no snow."

    LOL. Does she have any other reasons to want to keep you hobbling? :)

    "With that in mind, I continually have to ask "Why???" when folks insist that they NEED an AWD equipped car "because they live in the north east" Sorry, not buying."

    Agreed, as a life-long New Englander/skier. FWD/all-season tires and a modicum of intelligence/skill/experience when driving in snow (not that I reserve my intelligence for the snow. Or so I believe?) has kept me going and arriving safe and sound lo these many years. A Flatlander in the Green/White mountains of beautiful Maine, New Hampster and Vermont.

    AWD is a nicety, not a necessity. But it will never cease to amaze me the number of drivers that believe AWD overrules the laws of physics, e.g. Subaru Outback wagon + snow + excessive speed (after having tailgated me and illegally passed) + sharp left-handed curve, Rte. 103 into Ludlow, Vt. = Subaru firmly planted in a snow bank on the Town Green! I did stop to see if all were OK. Besides the Subie, they were... And I continued to my destination in my FWD Acura without incident.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • I test drive 7 cars recently I am looking at here is how I would rate them:

    1. Acura TL
    2. Lexus IS 350
    3. Infiniti G35
    4. BMW 325i
    5. Cadillac CTS
    6. Mercedes C Class
    7. Lincoln Zephyr
  • Neat. Care to expand on your rating mehod, or pros and cons.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "The same could also be said for any decent car with a good set of winter tires."

    We just disagree on this point. With RWD with snows or without snows you slip, the DSC or whatever kicks in and engine power gets cut if needed. If you don't have DSC, tailspin.

    With AWD/4WD depending on the system of course, traction gets transferred to the front wheels. It's simply more secure.

    Besides being more secure IMO -of course, I don't want to swap rims and tires.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Absolutely agree. No car, regardless of how capable, is a substitute for the matter between the ears. Thinking back on an old IT Help Desk industry acronym "PEBKAC" (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair), I might humbly suggest that we might want to coin a new acronym for drivers that stuff AWD and 4WD equipped cars into snowbanks (or worse). Hmmm, how about "PEBSAPOS" (Problem Exists Between Seat And Pedals Or Steering-wheel).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "We just disagree on this point. With RWD with snows or without snows you slip, the DSC or whatever kicks in and engine power gets cut if needed. If you don't have DSC, tailspin."

    Well, that seems to be a fairly common belief around here, however, I drove any number of RWD equipped cars through LOTS of snow in the days before ABS, DSC, TCS or any of the alphabet soup electronic nannies were applied to the generally affordable automobile industry, and I never "tailspinned". Errr, unintentionally that is. ;-)

    True, if you simply mash the throttle without regard to the conditions around you then "tailspin" is the least of your worries. The fact is that there are many millions of drivers who've driven non-nannied RWD cars billions of miles in wintry conditions without even a single tailspin.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Thinking about my last post a little more, the only car that I've ever had an unintentional spin in was in my 1979 VW Scirocco. Of course that was on dry pavement and I was pushing a little hard. :blush:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • 70miles commute on highways don't count for squat because both NH and MA are very diligent about ploughing highways, and the ramps are always very well designed. I drove 200+ miles from Boston to NYC more than a decade ago in an old BMW 5 series (no DSC or LSD) with bald all-season tires in a snow storm . . . when I stopped for a bathroom break and a sandwich lunch, the headlights were buried by the snow on the bumper when I came out. I should not have done that except for youthful inexperience/bravado and the snow storm was sudden . . . still I made it without incident or even much wheel slippage at all simply because the road was very well salted even as the snow coming down rapidly.

    Half a decade later, when I had to drive in the boonie back country, it was an entirely different matter. The back roads of the hilly parts of New England most certainly need AWD because the local authorities don't plough for days at a time!

    AWD is a nicety, not a necessity.

    AWD is certainly more necessary than either luxury or performance, or the sedan part for that matter. Can we just move on from this religiosity against AWD??
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 119
    Interesting dichotomy you present, Dave 330i...

    You advocate winter tires...despite the fact they will need to be on the car from Dec-March even in the Mid-West...and have horrible performance in the dry. So basically, you advocate turning you performance sedan into an econobox for 4-5 months out of the year instead of AWD?

    Then you say "If you're interested in a performance sedan, you should be able to feel the difference between RWD & AWD"

    I'm sorry, but this just does not hold up in my experience. Ever go to a PCA or BMW track event? Ever notice how 80% of the cars out there are (dangerous) rolling obstacles? Ever go to an autocross and find 1/2 the drivers turning in times slower than what I could achieve on my pit scooter? These are people who are not only interested in performance, but trying to do something to improve theirs, and they make up, what, maybe 3% of drivers of performance cars? And THESE are the people who are going to notice a couple of hundred pounds on the road at a safe 80% of their ability?
  • And yet they only offer GT2 & GT3 in RWD only

    In case you did not know, GT2 and GT3 are offered in RWD only because the respective race cars are RWD. Why are the race cars RWD? Because AWD has been banned from these races due to the "unfair advantage"! In other words, when AWD were allowed, the RWD entrants had no realistic hope of winning the races! When driving in the snow by myself, I want every "unfair advantage" there is.
  • The fact is that there are many millions of drivers who've driven non-nannied RWD cars billions of miles in wintry conditions without even a single tailspin.

    Another fact is that hundreds of thousands of old RWD cars have gone off the road or flipped over in snow conditions. The success of FWD cars in snow racing in the 50's and 60's, and the success and ultimately the banning of AWD cars due to their "unfair advantage" from car races should have made it plenty clear that RWD platform is not ideal when surface traction is limited. As much as I love RWD cars, I find it perplexing why some other RWD afficienadoes find it necessary to argue against simple physics.
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