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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,208
    if we're going outside of ELLPS, number 1 could also be a Legacy GT.

    but, yeah, based on who posted it, its an ms6.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,208
    its going to depend on where the numbers came from.

    For instance, I would guess #3 is the 335, but if that's the correct guess, that MSRP is jacked up with options.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Cars should be designed not to catch fire when in a crash period. Every car I've ever seen burning on the road, has been some piece of ill-maintained junk, where the fire was doing the owner a favor.

    "This could be the most unintelligent statement in world history. Please enlighten us, your holiness, with why Japanese and German cars will never catch fire."

    Actually your post contributed a lot to the forum.
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    "Cars should be designed not to catch fire when in a crash period. Every car I've ever seen burning on the road, has been some piece of ill-maintained junk, where the fire was doing the owner a favor".

    Does this answer my question? No. You have no stats to back up your claim, just a bias towards the car. Judging by the comments from some of the regulars, your post was greeted with scorn, as it should be. Your credibility is zero because of posts like that one.
  • Seen several late model cars burning. No big deal...it's to be expected that objects with combustible materials and lots of friction/heat/moving parts will catch fire eventually.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    MazdaSpeed 6 is definitely the first car on your list. But why include a car with cloth seats and no moonroof on a ist of "luxury cars?"

    Also, you forgot to include the $28,920 Legacy GT and the $28,655 Impala SS (which both come with heated leather seats and a moonroof for under $30,000).

    The only way to get leather and moonroof on the Mazda is to get the Grand Touring model and add an optional moonroof. Price - $31,220.

    The European Delivery MSRP for a 335i sedan is $35,990. I suspect most folks on this forum would pay the extra $4770 for the extra refinement, performance, and features of the Bimmer.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    Mazdaspeed 6 can probably be bought at your local dealership for around $6000 to $8,000 under MSRP. The cars on the list were reported in magazines. I could not tell them which cars or trim levels to test so I did not include some I would have liked to.
    Here, I'll add one more to the list:

    MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid cityMPG

    $28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
    $34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
    $45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
    $36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
    $35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
    $54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
    $40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
    $45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Cars should be designed not to catch fire when in a crash period. Every car I've ever seen burning on the road, has been some piece of ill-maintained junk, where the fire was doing the owner a favor.

    All cars, including the dreaded American cars like Cadillac, are designed to prevent MOST fires/injuries/deaths from MOST accidents. Are they perfect? Far from it, but so is every other automaker. BMW and Lexus can't prevent everything, including fires. The risk of any accident is one that is assumed when getting behind the wheel of, or being a passenger in, any moving vehicle, not just the American makes.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    Cars generate tremendous, surprising more don't burn.
  • 335i sedan ED price is 33805 (including shipping) before dealer profit - so add a grand and you're at 34805.

    http://bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158308
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "...from a "beauty" sort of speak perspective I would rather to have those 18"s."

    That's what's ruining todays' suspensions. They have to soften them up to accomodate the low-profile tires. They have upset the optimal relationship between suspension and tires. I don't even see what's so good looking about big wheels. They look like Conestoga wagon wheels.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    Ok. Here's a couple more to make 10. Any more guesses?

    Columns are price, 0-60 time in seconds, 1/4 mile time, top speed, braking 70-0, lateral acceleration skidpad, EPA city mpg

    MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid cityMPG

    $28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
    $34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
    $45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
    $36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
    $35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
    $54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
    $40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
    $45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20
    $35,870.00 5.9 14.6 152 170 0.91 20
    $32,064.00 7.1 15.4 142 170 0.?? 20
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "They have to soften them up to accomodate the low-profile tires."

    I read a study three or four years back that tested a couple of different cars with wheel/tire sets ranging from 16" through 20" (all with the same rolling diameter as the factory spec for the car, and all roughly the size of a typical 3-Series BMW wheel/tire) to see if they could quantify the better handling aspects of larger wheels and lower profile tires. IIRC, the rather surprising result was that 17" was deterined to be the optimal size, and beyond that, the extra unsprung weight started negatively affecting the handling characteristics.

    I have no idea if suspension tuning combined with light weight wheels (expensive) and tires will offset the findings of the study that I read, but there it is. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    IIRC, the rather surprising result was that 17" was determined to be the optimal size...

    Yes, that's also what I've heard from the track rats and the E46 3-series. If you really want a good feel for what has become of this, try a 996 911 with 17s, then a 997 911 that is bling laden with 19s, both with and without the electronic damping they call PASM. I don't think BMW has gone to that extreme yet with the suspension and I think I would choose the smallest wheel I could get on a E90/92 3-series... without runflats of course. On the Porsches, the smallest wheels get you a mushy ride, for a Porsche that is.
  • piasonpiason Posts: 55
    Move to Japan! :mad:
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    How do you know I am not in Japan? :P
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,208
    335i sedan ED price is 33805 (including shipping) before dealer profit - so add a grand and you're at 34805.

    STOP! Yer killin' me!

    or... i should say ... you're going to make my wife kill me. that bargain is so hard to get out of my head. ;b

    I keep promising myself I'm buying an inexpensive beater after my current lease is up.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    If you read the original post that stated this discussion/flamewar/diatribe-fest, a manual transmission was a non-negotiable item.

    So the IS350 is out. So are any of the others that don't offer it as standard equipment.
  • I'm in the same boat. I keep repeating to myself: GTI, Mini, Mazdaspeed3. Then I think about 0-60 in under 5 seconds...argh.

    Logic dictates a GTI - room for a kid, easy exit/entry, DSG for the lazy-fiancee - but desire screams: 4.8 seconds before you chip the 335i!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "If you really want a good feel for what has become of this, try a 996 911 with 17s, then a 997 911 that is bling laden with 19s, both with and without the electronic damping they call PASM."

    Bling laden? :surprise: Those are fighting words! :mad:

    Seriously though, my (bling-less) 2005 911S w/ 19" wheels and 295/30 series rear tires does not ride much harsher (with PASM set on normal) than my 2004 TL 6-speed w/ 17" wheels and 245/45 tires. And it rides much smoother, with no more body roll (i.e. none), than my friends former 2001 996 Turbo with 18" wheels and 285/35 series tires. A few rides and drives in that 996 Turbo required a trip to the dentist to have my fillings reset.

    That said, I would agree with the general comment that many, if not most, manufacturers have not advanced their suspensions to the same degree they have increased their wheel size. The former involves real engineering, the latter appeals to image over substance. In the ELLPS segment, only BMW, in my opinion, has the suspension to match anything larger than 17" wheels.

    P.S. Louiswei - all in good fun. ;) Even I thought my old Supra on 14" wheels looked out of proportion. Within 3 years they were up to 16's or 17's.
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    From Car&Driver magazine.

    price MSRP 0-60 1/4 mi top 70-0 skid EPA city

    $28,555.00 5.4 14.0 149 155 0.87 20
    $34,620.00 5.3 14.0 137 177 0.87 20
    $45,720.00 4.9 13.6 144 160 0.87 19
    $36,000.00 5.2 13.9 158 160 0.87 16
    $35,565.00 5.6 14.2 145 169 0.78 17
    $54,720.00 6.9 15.3 150 176 0.82 19
    $40,000.00 5.1 13.7 142 167 0.85 19
    $45,055.00 5.5 14.2 132 175 0.83 20
    $35,870.00 5.9 14.6 152 170 0.91 20
    $32,064.00 7.1 15.4 142 170 ?.?? 20

    Mazdaspeed 6
    Subaru Legacy GT spec B
    BMW 335i
    Infinity G 35
    Dodge Charger
    BMW 530
    Lexus IS 350
    Mercedes C 350 sport
    Acura TL
    Lexus IS 250
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Does C&D indicate whether these are auto or manual transmissions? Which model TL is #9 - base or TL-S (2007).

    Thanks, by the way, for an interesting quiz Mr. Trebek. I did get #6 correct, although I think I forgot to give my answer in the form of a questions as: "What is the BMW 530i, Alex?"
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    I don't know about the trim or TL transmission. I only memorized the numbers as I read the articles. Nice skidpad # though.
    You get full points for the 530i.
    Alex has always been way too uptight about that sort of thing. I'm his brother, Joe Trebek.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    That's the base TL's. The test date is 10/05, by then the TL-S hasn't been out yet.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    From Inside Line:

    "For us, the 2007 Honda Civic Si Sedan reminds us of the BMW M3 E36-series sedan. The coupe might get the billboard signage, but the sedan proves to be a more mature piece, a grown-up performance car instead of just a hot rod."

    Full Story
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    Pardon my neophyte status, but how do you get the car to the States and how much does it cost? Can you select your port of entry or does it need to be Baltimore or Charleston? And is the car ready to register and title just like any other BMW sold here? What about sales tax?

    Thanks in advance.
  • All part of the deal - shipping and "redelivery" is just like any other purchase - you just own and drive your car in Europe. Comes with free insurance (as part of the deal) while you drive there, too.

    All you really have to do is take delivery in Munich and drive it a couple of miles down the road to the drop off. Your choice if you want to spend a month cruising the Autobahn, crossing the alps, touring Tuscanny or the French vineyards in your new BMW.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Grasshopper,

    All of your questions will be answered here:

    http://www.bmwusa.com/bmwexperience/europeandelivery/

    Have fun. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I drove an 06 Si coupe. Low power/no torque, skateboard ride, zero luxury and crazy slow. No xenons either - can't live without 'em.

    I'll look at the sedan but given how lousy the Si is vis-a-vis the GTI, Mini and just basic Mazda3, I sincerely doubt it will intrigue me.
  • The normal 695 shipping that ALL BMW customers pay. Pick it up in munich, drive it in europe and drop it off at one of a bunch of locations.

    The car is registered just like any other car: all is handled by the dealership. Salestax is based on the purchase price in your state - the dealer sold you the car in your state, but you picked it up elsewhere. Same nexus laws apply.

    Your port of entry is you dealership. After you drop the car off in europe for re-delivery it gets shipped with all the other bmws to your nearest port and on to your dealer. Your dealer calls you when they get the car. you pick it up as if you had ordered.
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