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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I also agree. Let's talk about what can be bought in the showroom today.

    As far as your projection of BMW reliability, you have blueguys perspective on one end and my perspective on the other. As far as CTS quality, I'm sure you understand, that surveys tell the whole story? Right? So if you think you'll be cruising around while my BMW is in the shop...think again. BMWs will go the distance, much more readily than a Cadillac.

    And you're right about the 6 figure 3 series not being an ELLPS, just like the CTS which isn't an ELLPS either.

    I stopped posting here as well. Was very bored of the CTS hyperbole.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,091
    The benchmarks which define this are the BMW 330 and the Audi A4 3.0. But there are many contenders, such as Acura TL-S, Chrysler 300M, Jaguar X-type, Infiniti I35, Mercedes C-Class, Volvo S60 T5. Some companies have contenders that emphasize performance Lexus IS300 or luxury Lexus ES300. And the field is continously growing, with the recent additions being the Cadillac CTS and Infiniti G35.

    The common charateristics of this entry level perfomance luxury group seem to (be) a price around 30 to 40k (US dollars) and 0-60 times between six and eight seconds.


    I quote from Post #1 originating this discussion.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    What ????? The CTS, doesn't fit the bill of a ELLPS car now ??? Good God.

    Well IMHO and others the Lincoln MKZ is here today and is a legit "Entry-Level Luxury Perforance Sedan" It has a V6 with 263 hp that out powers the Acura TL, it also has FWD like the Acura TL, and it also has a more sportier 6-speed automatic, where the TL just has a 5 speed. The other sporty option on the MKZ is the fact that it has a sport suspension and can be bought with AWD which improves handling.

    On the luxury side of the equation the MKZ, has the only ventilated seats in the segment with the exception of Lexus IS 350. The MKZ, also offers it's customers a 500 Watt THX II DVD-Audio surround sound system which is more powerful than any of the competitors. It won awards as having the best "luxury car interior" by wards.

    So in summary if you want a ELLPS that offers just enough sport with even more luxury at a inexpensive price Lincoln, has built you a car. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well that fits the MKZ's criteria........ ;)

    Rocky
  • So in summary if you want a ELLPS that offers just enough sport with even more at a inexpensive price Lincoln built you a car.

    Muhahahahahahahahaha.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Muhahahahahahahahaha

    What is that suppose to mean ?

    Rocky
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,606
    I think it means that he respectfully disagrees...

    But I'm sure he'll elaborate.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • The idea of calling a Lincoln a entry lev lux sport sedan is humorous. Very humorous. It's a FWD Lincoln built on a 6-7 year old Mazda chassis. :)
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Color: Blue Graphite
    Interior: Black w/Nappa Leather Seat Trim

    Base MSRP†: $ 32,130
    Destination Fee: $ 640
    Blue Graphite $ N/C
    Driver & Front Passenger Sport Seats $ STD
    Bi-Xenons Headlights w/AFS $ 950
    Dynaudio Premium Sound System $ 1,000
    DVD Navigation w/iPod Adapter $ 1,800
    Adaptive Cruise Control $ 975
    Rear Side Airbags $ 350
    Rubber Mats (Set of 4) & Trunk Liner $ 185
    Rear Spoiler $ 479
    Ground Effects Kit $ 1,650
    SIRIUS Satellite Radio $ STD
    Nappa Leather Seat Trim $ STD
    Package #1 Sport $ 4,030
    Leather-Wrapped Gearshift Knob & Boot $ STD
    3-Spoke Leather-Wrapped Sport Steering Wheel $ STD
    Brushed Aluminum Trim $ STD
    Manual Side & Rear Sun Shades $ STD
    Automatic Headlights w/Coming Home Feature $ STD
    Climatronic Dual-Zone Automatic Climate Control $ STD
    Fog Lights $ STD
    Heated Front Seats $ 225
    Heated Washer Nozzles $ STD
    HomeLink Garage Door Opener $ STD
    Park Distance Control $ STD
    Rain Sensing Wipers $ STD
    Trunk Storage Net $ STD
    Self-Dimming Rearview Mirror $ STD
    Power Heated Memory Side Mirrors $ STD
    Wheels: 8J x 18" Samarkand Alloy $ 600
    Sport Suspension $ STD
    iPod Adapter $ 199
    Total MSRP: $ 44,189

    Now this is a very safe ELLPS and offers many features not found on BMW's, Mercedes C-Class, Acura TL, Infiniti G35, to just name a few. When this car debuted in Motor Trend they said it was like riding in a Bank Vault. I see quite a few of them roaming the streets of the Texas Panhandle. :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I respect his opinion but I've seen many forum posters elaborate how the Acura TL, is a ELLPS and I just proved why the MKZ is a ELLPS for once and all. ;)

    Just mine and a few others opinions and it's hard to argue facts. :)

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,369
    You have me in stiches!!!
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    I didn't see "optional 6 speed manual tranny" in your description of the MKZ. Did you miss that or....wait, it doesn't come with one :surprise:

    I guess your back to blatantly disregarding the hosts request to keep the MKZ out of here huh?
  • Really, the CTS, Lincoln, etc are punchlines for many of us. They're not considered for a variety of reasons. So why not create a forum that allows for pseudo performance sedans like the MKZ?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Why create a whole seperate one when this one is so well established. There isn't a large enough crowd for 2.

    Just because you hate american cars and the CTS will challenge the best from Europe and Japan doesn't mean it's a pseudo-performance car. The MKZ is just as quick as a Acura TL, and you want the MKZ banned and the TL to stay ? I will say one thing good about you that you don't try to hide your bias. ;)

    I'm following the rules given to me today. Why don't you create another forum where you can specifically list the cars you want to talk about. You don't have to click on the CTS or MKZ icon either. ;)

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    You have to be kidding. "entry-level" is exactly that - everything from 25-35K after discounts that qualifies as even a little bit of luxury and a decent amount of "sportiness" above a Buick/Camry/etc commuterbox.

    If you are talking about mainstream luxury performance cars(note the lack of "entry-level", then you've come to the wrong discussion. Complaining that the CTS and MKZ don't "fit" - they plainly do. Welcome to the bottom-end/entry-level of luxury performance cars.

    IIRC, based upon the original posting, this comes down to:
    - 25-35K after rebates - definately not $40K+, that's the next level)
    - has more luxury than an Accord/Camry/Pontiac/etc.
    - has a sporty suspension and good handling. Well, better than a Buick or Camry in any case.
    - manual transmission is an option.
    - No convertibles. 4 doos preferred - 2 okay if it's like the old 2-door Volvo sedans(it's the exact same car as a sedan, just with two doors instead of 4). No hatchbacks, crossovers, or simmilar, of course.

    Pretty much anything else is okay. Note the utter lack of FWD/RWD/AWD, size(within reason - a DTS isn't going to really work - lol), or brand. Traction control, stability control, navigation, alloy wheels, leather... also not on the list. Nice, but optional.

    A base 3 series is acceptable, for instance - the upper-end 3 probably not, though - it's just too expensive for a first time buyer in this segment to usually buy. OTOH, if BMW is running a killer financing program that get the upper-end 3 series down around the same payments as $35K...

    Btw, yes, the MKZ technically fits here. It's not what most of use would LIKE to see from Ford as an effort, but it passes the required minimums.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    that the opening post of this discussion was made five years ago. Inflation over that period of time should increase the pricepoint that was defined then, it seems to me.

    Also remember that just because a car is included here, you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to, and you don't have to respond to posts that do.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,226
    I didn't see "optional 6 speed manual tranny" in your description of the MKZ. Did you miss that or....wait, it doesn't come with one :surprise:

    sorry, Rock, but I have to agree here.

    no manual gear selection = no sport (and no, the selectable slushboxes that they try to pass off as sporty these days don't qualify either)

    Unfortunately, the standard TL no longer has a manual, but since the Type S is still well under $40k, I think it is still valid.

    anyway, discuss what you will. my opinion is what it is.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,369
    We have room here for all opinions. Just do not get offended.

    I owned a Lincoln LS and it was great but lacking is some key performance areas. Why did Lincoln "Kill IT"? Because the platform was too old, probably. I assume the MKZ is the answer.

    All I can tell you is I can feel the development in this BMW unlike any other nameplate I owned from GM/Ford/DCX.

    Look at it like this: Camaro - Killed - Resurrected
    Firebird - Killed, Grand Prix - Never developed - Killed, maybe resurrected? Ford Taurus - (considered the SHO but abysmal quality track record). - Killed - Resurrected as 500?

    There is no lifeline to truly evolve each model and keep loyalty! How can you keep brand loyalty when you are so inconsistent?

    The Corvette and Mustang are the only evolved nameplates in the US!!!!!!! Muhahahahaha! Just kidding.

    Challenger - Killed - Resurrected for Shipo??

    Regards,
    OW
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Ah - thought the MKZ had stick. Sigh. That item is and was never negitiable. Even if its a special-order option, it has to be there.

    You'll note that the Saabs and Volvos pretty much can come with stick, though, so many of them would qualify. A nice step above your typical car.

    The Grand Prix with the V8 certainly has the power and suspension to qualify, but it's eerily like the RX-8. It's a blast to drive, but utterly fails the "luxury" part. It's most like a entry-level-plain-as-vanilla-sports-sedan. All function and nothing nice about it.

    Nothing anout it where you grin a bit to yourself knowing you have a better car than most people AND one that you could feel okay with having a vallet park it.

    GM - other than the CTS, isn't doing very well here. Few manuals, and either it's de-contented to the point of rental-fleet starkness(and leather seats alone don't fix this - something Mercedes should note with its C-Class lately), or it has suspension that's as soft as a NERF toy.

    I think Top Gear(U.K. auto show) said it best.
    "The Americans just don't seem to get "luxury". Their idea of it is to just make it bigger."
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Gee whiz - I meant the CTS-V.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    That my friends is a Factory Tuned Performance Oriented car. So is the Acura TL Type-S "Well kinda"

    The Grand Prix certainly isn't a ELLPS. However if the new G8 had a badge other than a Pontiac it would be a ELLPS, because it's interior is just as good as if not better than the new Mercedes C-class which will be considered a ELLPS. ;)

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "However if the new G8 had a badge other than a Pontiac it would be a ELLPS"

    Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.

    You know, you could fire up your own thread and include whatever vehicles you want in that discussion. Almost every manufacturer has an option for leather, having a leather option with some hp behind it doesn't make that vehicle an ELLPS.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.

    http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/02/g8_interior.html

    http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12337/2008-mercedes-benz-c-class.html (click photo's)

    Well IMHO I would have to give the luxury nod to the Pontiac G8 and it's what $15-20K cheaper and offers you world class performance. I agree the badge is the only thing it's missing from making it a ELLPS. I guess if you care more about product than the badge the choice is clearly easy between these two. :shades:

    You know, you could fire up your own thread and include whatever vehicles you want in that discussion

    Yeah I could but why ? I enjoy this one way to much. You could also do the same. :blush:

    Almost every manufacturer has an option for leather, having a leather option with some hp behind it doesn't make that vehicle an ELLPS.

    Well that is true and I agree it takes more than just leather and power to be a ELLPS. I often think some get to caught up with badges instead of letting the product do the talking. I do see good product coming from non traditional luxury brands giving the traditonal luxury brands fits and my links from above is just one example. ;)

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,226
    Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.

    ummmm... i thought that was his point. "If it had a badge OTHER than pontiac" ...

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    qbrozen,

    I appreciate the kindness of you pointing that out. :)

    Rocky
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "Ah - thought the MKZ had stick. Sigh. That item is and was never negitiable. Even if its a special-order option, it has to be there."

    Wanna know what else it doesn't have insofar as it relates to "transmissions?" It doesn't have a "manumatic". Even the ES 350 has one :surprise:
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    Rocky, I think Pontiac makes some of the most attractive American cars. I am sort of sorry I didn't check them out before I bought my TL. In fact, I think deep down that part of the reason I bought the TL was because it didn't have the bmw "badge" :P
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    It all goes back to the original sport sedans, the original BMW 2002 and 3 series, more than 30 years ago(almost 30 for the 3 series).

    It must be built to be luxurious, smaller than a Buick/midsize car if possible(though modern technology has enabled larger cars to qualify, smaller and lighter is always preferred), handle well, and have a manual gearbox.

    The IS350 becomes just another luxury sedan. And it costs a lot more than $40K by the time you get it out the door.

    CarsDirect Price: $37,140
    - this is a stripped, no options base model IS350. It's clearly moved itself out of this segment. You'll never, ever find one, though, without at least 2-3 option packages, so $40K is closer to a realistic price.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    ummmm... i thought that was his point. "If it had a badge OTHER than pontiac" ...

    Badge like what? Lexus? The interior photos shows an ugly interior. IMHO.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,226
    does it matter? his point was simply that pontiac is not a luxury brand. he admitted that in his original post. not everything has to be a war.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '14 Town&Country

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