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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    No. He's saying the interior is better than the Mercedes C. I disagree. And yes, I mis-read the point about the GP not being an ELLPS. But I don't think the interior is any great shakes.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,702
    that's fine. you guys can argue about the interior all you want.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • Yeah, what a great deal. A 300C sized car with an underpowered V8 and low gas mileage. Oh, gimme more.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,702
    alright ... we really shouldn't be discussing it here ... but 362 hp is underpowered??? I guess the 300C is "grossly underpowered"??? At least the G8 will supposedly come with a stick.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    LOL, I'd still to this day buy the TL over everything Pontiac currently offers and that's coming from a GM guy.

    The G8, isn't a ELLPS because of it's badge. If you put a different emblem like a luxury nameplate badge on it then I think it has enough credibility on interior/exterior + gadgets to be a ELLPS. The G8, has the highest quality interior to ever be installed in a Pontiac car. This is all good news from GM, because it raises the bar another step higher for the comapany. While many will argue the Mercedes, has more luxury which may be true a unbiased person would be blinde to not appreciate the G8's fit and finish for a car starting out at around $26K and will top out around $33K. I do think some ELLPS buyers will cross shop the G8 because it offers a lot of value. The 2008' Cadillac CTS is a ELLPS no matter how you slice. I should be shocked that a few won't acknowledge it as such but deep down I'm not a bit surprised. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    The interior color choice ruins it a bit. BTW- That isn't production color as it's been noted on this and other sites. I respectfully disagree with your position on G8's interior. The Mercedes C class was surprisingly plain. I guess I've always admired Mercedes interiors and the plainess caught me off guard for a car costig that kind of money is all. ;)

    Rocky
  • Take a look at the power to weight and the actual performance. Considering the car has a V8, I found the numbers listed rather underwhelming.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Since when was 362 hp. on regular gas underpowered ?????

    That is 62 more horsepower than your beloved BMW 335i bluedotguy. I will acknowledge the 335i from a size and weight standpoint will out run the G8 GT but once the Holden Commodore HSV/GXP version arrives that will all change as Motor Trend reported a 502 hp. 7.0 LS-7 V8 is in the works. ;) I suppose that also will be considered underpowered as well. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • 362 out of a V8 = underwhelmed. Considering the car's behemoth size, it's not gonna be an entry lux car. It's more of a Maxima with a V8.

    No matter how much power, it's just too darn big too.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We're all in agreement the G8 doesn't belong here, so let's leave it out!
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    Yep, that's him.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I was surprised how big the TL is, it just does not look that big. Plust it's a heavey car too. :surprise:
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I don't think the TL, is all that heavy. It was pretty nimble for me. ;)

    Rocky
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    slow
    porky
    cramped
    expensive
  • joe131joe131 Posts: 972
    Nope. Wrong criteria.

    Brand is all important.
    A manual transmission is not at all important to make the cut.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    0-60 in 6.6 is slow ? well maybe........

    Yeah it might be porky but it's one of the safest cars you can own. Cramped when compared to a 335i or IS 350 ? It's like a limo in size. ;) It only gets expensive when you add every option including AWD. It's still is less than a fully loaded 335i or IS 350.

    Rocky
  • Yes, 6.6 seconds is slow - even generic compacts like the GTI are faster than that. This is 2007, not 2002. Anything over 5.5 seconds seems a little last generation. We've got the G35, IS350 and 335i pulling near to sub 5 seconds 60 sprints.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Okay, fair enough.......

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    We've got the G35, IS350 and 335i pulling near to sub 5 seconds 60 sprints

    Yet all three of those aren't entry-level - they belong in the regular or mainstream luxury performance car category - based upon price alone if nothing else.
  • How do you figure? average selling price of a car in 2007 is 30k so therefore isn't 40k or so entry level luxury?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    That was my point about the defining first post being five years old. I agree with you and I believe at this point going beyond $40k to some degree is warranted.

    In any case, those vehicles are definitely staples of this discussion.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The optimal price-point for an *entry-level* car like this should be exactly the average selling price, or $30K.

    - The IS 350? No stickshift. Gone. If Lexus added manual back for 2008, which given the upcoming CTS, they might, I'd gladly welcome it back. There's ZERO point in having 300HP in a smaller car like this and castrating it with a less than great automatic.

    - The G35 sport has manual and is right at $33K or so. It fits this discussion. It's also nicely equipped as is - you don't need $6K in options to make it a nice car.
    Cars Direct Target Price: $32,950

    - The 335i isn't BMWs entry-level offering in this category, so it fails based upon that criteria.
    CarsDirect Price: $38,560 - this is for one with vinyl seats and not even the upgraded suspension that you'd want - no - NEED to make it stand out from the competition.

    The focus needs to be on "least expensive luxury performance sedans" - and 40K+ isn't being frugal - or sometihng that an average first-time buyer in this segment really wants to pay.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Plekto, those cars are part of this discussion and that is not going to change. If you don't want to talk about them, that's fine, just ignore them.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    easily top out over $40 without trying. Until recently the bottom of the line Infiniti had cloth. The Germans allow you to option out the vehicle as you want. The 3 series is the bottom of the line of BMWs lineup. Add one option to the Lexus and the price jumps by $7K. This forum is not the frugal shopping section of Edmunds.

    A first time buyer who wants a more sporty 2007 vehicle than a family sedan but doesn't want to pay over $30K out the door is out of luck in this segment.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The original post itself stipulated that a manual transmission as non-negotiable and it still is. Lexus needs to bring a manual option back, because to people who dominate this segment, it's not even close to the real thing without it.

    As for the 335i, the 330 is BMW's entry-level option according to them. If you start letting in upper-level offerings of simmilar cars, well, then we might as well put the CTS-V or the S60R in as well...

    P.S. while $30K may be hard to do, 30K or so for a base price before options is very much the goal of many buyers. ie - they'll squeeze up to 35K or so, but take the 335i - you can easily bloat it up to 45K or more, which is just not in the same price-range.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    The topic has been well-defined for quite some time. I guess there was a point where posters lost sight of the stick being a requirement. While I personally prefer a stick as do many here, there is some logic in letting it go as an absolute requirement as manual trannies become harder to find and as fewer and fewer folks (unfortunately) demand it.

    The CTS-V and S60R are clearly overkill for this particular conversation.

    I think it would be a good thing if we talked about the cars listed at the top of this page and stop worrying about what should or should not be included in this discussion that has done just fine for a very long time within its defined, yet reasonably elastic given what has changed over time, parameters.

    It would be great if anyone who wants to change the topic goes ahead and fires up another. We can never have too many places to debate these vehicles, eh? :)

    Edit (in response to your edit): As I've said, a five year old post defining the pricepoint needs to be taken with several inflated grains of salt. There is no reason to hold on to a five year old $40k ceiling.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    all of the cars only the A4 might allow you get out the door for $30K. Face it, this is a speciality segment, prices are not like the midsize family sedan segment.

    Why don't you start your own discussion with the makes, models and price of your choice? This way you can exclude the upper echelon of the bottom rung.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I don't see why $40K isn't just as fair a ceiling as it used to be. It keeps you firmly in "entry-level" territory and is exactly one notch above the typical spongy boxes/rental fleet fodder.

    The G35 sedan, the CTS, the S60, and 330i, and a slew of others aren't even $35K, and are fine examples of this type of car. A couple of them, like the CTS, start at under $30K. 40K is still more than enough to buy a few options and get it out the door, IMO.

    Most people here want to raise that limit for one and only one reason, the 335i. But that's as unfair as the IS350 is, because the IS250 is clearly what Lexus is offering as their entry-level sports sedan.

    And the 330i isn't a half-bad car, either, make no mistake about it. It runs neck and neck with many of the others.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    With options almost every vehicle goes above $40K, so you are in favor of eliminating the vehicle if it can be optioned out over $40K? Or are you just trying to twist the argument a bit. The base price of every vehicle listed is below $40K and can be optioned to over $40K.

    Please stop talking about the 330 you cannot buy a 2007 330 sedan or coupe. The 335i leaves 'em in the dust.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,540
    I read the date on Post #1 when I copied the beginning criteria to the recent post and it didn't register about cost increase. I should have realized it has changed.

    I used an inflation calculator and the $30000 and $40000 went to $33333 and $45000 approx. That's about 2% per year.
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