Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy

But you havent driven it or seen the sales numbers- do I'm sticking with my comment unless its a proven sales giant as the Lexus- I drove the old rdx and the golf based vw Tiguan- and the vw was a better small ute - in every way

m6user

Why would you say I haven't driven it? How the H would you know? I've driven both so I think I can offer a decent comparison. . I've talked with a few salesman about it and also have frequented several forums. You're right, I haven't seen the sales numbers, that's why I said it was premature for someone to label it "dominant". Do you even read posts completely?

sweendogy

"while I've never driven the new rdx" - tHis is what you put in bold- so I was assuming it was your comment - but when I re-read the comment I guess you were quoting me - next time I would quote me. For you to say you've talking to salesmen about a car they sell is like me talking to a priest - they are trying to sell you something.

I hope the car does well- but it's got a long way to go before becoming a serious player-

The Ellps category has expanded overnight

m6user

In many forums here on Edmunds people copy and paste and then bold to indicate a quote. This is one of the few I don't see it much. If this is about the only forum you frequent I can see how you mistook my quote from you. I know the salesman very well and believe what he says. He also told me the ILX was not doing well at all and may not even be around after a couple of years. He's pretty upfront and little BS, retired state trooper whom I've known for some time.

It will be interesting to see what Acura keeps the TSX or ILX or both. I think if they put the 2.4L in the base ILX it would probably sell pretty well. As it is, it is underpowered for luxury or near-luxury model.

stickguy

I was at the acura dealer Saturday looking at the RDX, and on the way out (walking next to sales guy) I glanced at the sticker on the ILX on the floor (not actually bad looking, but yes, it screamed economy car to me!_ and it was ~32k. Not sure which model, but it had an AT so not the hot rod version.

I commented "expensive Civic" and he looked pained, and mumbles something about there were lots of changes to the platform, but he didn't really sound too enthusiastic about it!

m6user

Yeah, the base platform is the same but everything else is different. Suspension, drivetrain, body, interior....pretty much everything. People that say it's just a upgraded Civic really haven't looked at the car or specs carefully. The 2.0 puts out like 150hp which is just not competitive. The car, IMO, is actually pretty nice looking and has a nice interior befitting of an Acura, not the crap that is the Civic interior with all apologies to Civic owners. It's just weak. If they upgrade to the base to a 2.4L later on it may be attractive. People expect some grunt with their luxury. It still could be competitive MPG wise with 200hp I think.

stickguy

so a gussied up civic for 32k? Tough price range to compete in.

ivan_99

People that say it's just a upgraded Civic really haven't looked at the car or specs carefully

I recall in early 2002 I had purchased a new 2003 G35. I had a nail in my tire that I was getting fixed.

The tire guys were all around the car and one guy said "wow, that's cool"...then the other guy said "Its just the same as the Altima".

:surprise:

graphicguy

I'm a Honda fan. My son is driving an Accord approaching 100k miles that has been perfect. I loved my TL SH AWD.

That said, Honda has lost its way a bit. They used to set the bar with all of their products....with sterlingengineering, build quality, value, performance, reliability, etc.

Like Toyota, they've slipped. However, instead of just being excellent at whatever they do, now they're merely very good.

fedlawman

I agree Graphicguy.

It's the "what have you done for me lately" syndrome combined with the fact that the Europeans have made big strides while Acura has been resting on their laurels.

The current Acura lineup is good, but Acura should not be satisfied with just good.

Acura needs a good entry-level car (like the aforementioned ILX with 2.4L), a sporty RWD/AWD mid-level car (like a "TLX" with 3.5L) and a large top of the line RWD/AWD sedan like the RLX.

Acura needs to stop marketing a line of "luxury cars" based on a FWD Honda platform. Period.

flightnurse

Acura is selling the living H out of the new RDX.

Please point me to the data that proves this, I have only seen one on the road, and it was in Phoenix. So far haven't seen in NY (Lawn Guyland), but so see the new CR-V (in borh cities.) One would assume if they are selling the hell out of them, I would be seeing them on the roads in Phoenix and in NY, so far this isn't the case.

flightnurse

Ivan, the problem the ILX will have is it is based off the Civic, Place an upgraded interior in it which is fine, but if you park a Civic and ILX next to each other you will see the similarities. If one is going to spend (cough) 32K for a ILX, it better not look like a 18K Honda Civic.

Acura built the ILX to get the Gen X'er into their brand, but for 32K one can buy a CPO 328i and have a much better brand identity and better warranty. The ILX's price needs to be less then 30K for a top of the line if they want to be competitive with other sport/luxury brands.

flightnurse

Acura needs to stop marketing a line of "luxury cars" based on a FWD Honda platform. Period.

It works for Lexus, why not Acura? RX/Highlander, ES/Camry, GX/4 Runner. LX/Land Cruiser.

Now the GS isn't based on anything that Toyota sells here in the states, however, if you look at the new Toyota Avalon that will go on sale in a couple of months, there are lots of lines that are very similar. Granted the GS is RWD and the Avalon is FWD.

Is it the dealership experience that sets apart Lexus and Acura? Or is it the way Lexus cars drive overall and people are willing to pay more for a Lexus then a Toyota version?

m6user

I have been actively looking at the RDX and driving it at several dealers. I've had to wait because the only one they had left was out being test driven. I have a guy I trust that sells Acura he tells me they are selling like crazy. I've stopped in several Chicago area Acura dealers and have yet to see all the colors because they have been selling them very quickly. My guy also says the ILX is not doing well so far but I guess he wouldn't know anything about that either. I think he bases his comments on first hand experience and customer interest versus how many he has seen on the road.

You ask for sales data? Well, they have been on the lots for about a month give or take a few days. Just what sort of internet type data do you expect me to provide you with at this point in time. I just don't think any real data has been gathered yet. So until then, you'll just have to not believe me and wait!. Cr-Vs by the way have been out for over 8 months so I would expect you to see them.

There is also the case where you might have seen them and didn't realize it. They now look like a slightly smaller version of the MDX and from a distance it is very hard to tell the difference. You really have to look at the lower grill in front and the exhaust pipes in back to tell the difference. Just walking around the new car lots it's a little difficult picking them out until you really zero in on the tailpipes or front facia.

I remember when the new Focus first came out. I knew from everything I read that they were selling like crazy but it was a long time before I started noticing them on the road.

flightnurse

M6 no one is doubting what the sale's persons are saying, however, when you make a claim as you did, some data would be nice to look into. Regarding the lack of RDX's on the lot could mean two things, 1, yes, they are selling very well, or 2, Acura isn't shipping many of them at this time. So there is an illusion of them selling well.

A quick check of a Acura dealer in Phoenix, has 13 RDX's, one happens to be a 2012.
A quick check of a Acura dealer on Long Island (7 miles from me) has 35 2013 RDX's.

Maybe the Chicago area likes the new RDX, but in Long Island so far they do not...

ctl

easy to google.

3301 RDX were sold for May 2012, 8183 YTD May 2012 Acura

10647, 35376 YTD for Lexus RX. May 2012 Toyota/Lexus

Just to compare, 2,678 for the new Infiniti JX May 2012 Infiniti

m6user

Thanks. Is that 2013 RDX or a combo of 2012 and 2013? I have found inventory online to be optimistic after getting to the dealer to look at the twenty they are supposed to have in stock and they end up having 8. Don't know who keeps up the internet inventories but they are way behind sales it appears.

sweendogy

Adding this article all your statement could not be any more right

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/06/has-acura-lost-its-- edge-sales-up-but-image-muddled/1#.T859Gbd5mc0

laura80

:confuse: what type of oil for a 89 bmw 750 il

laura80

what type of oil for 89 bmw750il

sweendogy

Wd 40

fedlawman

"It works for Lexus, why not Acura?"

Short answer - because Lexus has the IS, GS, and LS RWD sedans.

akirby

Go compare the sales of the IS, GS and LS to the ES and RX then tell me how important RWD is to Lexus.

fedlawman

The RX is their biggest seller, but it's not the topic of this discussion.

2012 IS and GS sales are very strong.

But FWIW, I wasn't talking about sales. Going by sales figures, you might believe that the Dodge Caliber is a world beater... :lemon:

flightnurse

The IS and GS are based off JDM Toyota's, the only non Toyota is the LS then.
So if Lexus can make a go of it, Acura should also.

I believe it has to be more with dealer experience then anything. Acura set the bar as far as the luxury car brands from Japan, however, Lexus has taken it to the next level. Infiniti almost closed up shop here because they did not explain what kind of car company it was, having ads with babbling brook, and streams wasn't tell Americans what kind of cars they built. Lexus wanted to be the #1 luxury brand in America they succeed until the Germans got their composure back and took it over again.

Kirstie_H

That's really not a good question for this particular discussion, since we focus on a variety of vehicles rather than the BMW 7-Series. I think your best bet is to go to our answers section here:
http://answers.edmunds.com
Once you've posted a question, you can find it again by clicking the "my answers profile" link on that page.

m6user

This is something posted on cars.com today regarding the Acura RDX. I know it's still a little off topic but wanted to provide the info requested.

"The compact crossover just went on sale amid a major marketing campaign. May 2012 sales were nearly triple what they were in May 2011 at 3,301 units. That's more than the BMW X3 (2,460), Audi Q5 (2,332), Mercedes-Benz GLK-Class (2,133), Volvo XC60 (1,751) and Land Rover Range Rover Evoque (706). Only Cadillac's SRX did better with 3,900 units sold in May."

I've read that both the new X3 and the Q5 are pretty popular. So the RDX beating them handily now versus, I assume being beat by them last year, would indicate that Acura is selling a bunch even if you haven't seen any.

graphicguy

fed....we're on the same page. Acura has let the RL become an afterthought. I know whenever I went into my local dealership for service, if they had one RL to sell, I was surprised. They just didn't market them. On the other hand, what was there to market? The TL had everything the RL had, at a much lower price. While a bit of a stretch, it was almost like GM putting some baubles on a Cavalier and calling it a Cadillac.

That said, it seems like Acura has gone out of its way to be "different" for difference's sake. I liked that with my TL. But, Civic vs ILS isn't going to win them any converts. Plus, the TL is now their flagship, for all intents and purposes.

I believe they try to split the difference between the German lux marques and the American lux brands. Acuras are sportier than Lexus, but not as soorty as a BMW or Audi. Lexus has carved their own niche (which they're desperately trying to expand from with the "F" versions of their mundane cars.

That said, you'd be hard pressed to find a more reliable, relatively inexpensive to operate, tech filled vehicle than an Acura.

M6.....quite frankly, I've yet to hear any car sales person say that business was bad....at least not to a potential customer. I usually hear them say that every car they are trying to sell is "in short supply".

It's that whole "buy it now while it's hot" syndrome.

flightnurse

M6,

it appears that Acura has a excellent lease rates, and 0.9% Financing right now, so this could also be why it is selling very well. It does look like a smaller version of the MDX, which BTW, is Acura top seller. I'm sure once the hype is done and the intro lease special is over with sales will settle down.

The ILX doesn't look like has taken off, even though the lease price is about the same as the top end Civic.

stickguy

Those deals are for the outgoing 2012 model. The new 2013 doesn't have the subsidized leases, etc.

as to the ILX, FWIW, by son (just turning 21, and just finished his Junior year at college) texted me last night that "he just saw a commercial for the ilx and it looked pretty snazzy".

so just maybe there is hope to pull in a younger generation, and his dream is to get a BMW before I do!

Of course, once he sees the price of a nicely equipped model, the fever will probably cool quickly.

m6user

"it appears that Acura has a excellent lease rates, and 0.9% Financing right now, so this could also be why it is selling very well."

Gee, do you have any data data on this? So we go from dealers have tons of inventory and I haven't seen one so they are not selling well in Long Island and Phoenix to it is "selling very well". I don't think the heavy incentives are for the 2013, and if so, I'll let you do the research to see if Acura offered any incentives last year. Hey, if you don't like the Acura brand that's fine but at least be objective.

flightnurse

Stick you are right about the 0.9% is for the 2012, but the leases of $399 and $499 are for the 2013. Not bad for $2400 down, unlike BMW where they want $3500 to 4K down for those prices.

flightnurse

Gee, do you have any data data on this?

http://www.acura.com/tools/shopping/CurrentOffers.aspx?model=RDX&modelYear=2013

stickguy

I don't lease, but are those prices really that good with so much money down? and in my zip, the tech package lease is $449 with $3,800 at signing (inc. 1st payment I think). Both are FWD too, so add more $$ for the AWD option.

but, the BMW is a lot more expensive, so even with another 1-1.5K up front, if the prices are about the same (monthly) then sounds like the BMW is a better deal.

m6user

I don't lease either so I really don't know if the lease prices are good or bad but can compare numbers. When you consider the BMW X3 similarly equipped is substantially more MSRP than the RDX, the deals are not that far apart so I would hardly say Acura is offering huge incentives to move product.

Kirstie_H

Well, it's not HUGE incentive, and I didn't see it described as such. It's just an excellent lease rate. BMW is known for offering excellent lease deals, too. I don't see great leasing deals as a big, "oh no, we must do this to move product." I see it as a business focus. Lease payments are generally lower than purchase payments, so it's a way to attract a segment of the market that might otherwise balk at product ownership - plus, if the consumer is new to consideration of the brand, it's a way to get them to "sample" the product for a few years without the downside of long-term ownership.

m6user

M6.....quite frankly, I've yet to hear any car sales person say that business was bad....at least not to a potential customer. I usually hear them say that every car they are trying to sell is "in short supply".

Than you don't anyone personally in the business. I have a nephew that is an auto tech and a friend that I've known for years that sells Acuras. Both of which pretty much tell me how it is. Having purchased over 40(not leased) I think I can seperatge the truth from the flack and don't believe just ANY auto salesman. It's not like I walked into a dealership and was told something by some salesman I don't know and repeated it in these forums. Please give me more credit than that.

andys120

Acuras are sportier than Lexus, but not as soorty (sic) as a BMW or Audi.

I don't know what standards you're using to establish "sportiness" but to me and many others any car with pretensions to sportiness should be RWD and since some Lexi are Rear-drive but Acuras aren't they are usually behind the curve in this respect.

Acura's ads tout the technical enhancements of the car not their driving characteristics. For guys like me the tech toys are a secondary consideration at best.

flightnurse

I do not lease either, there is no advantage for me to lease, but I'm sure one could with a 700+ score get the same deal with less money out of pocket.

The X3 has a better residual value then the RDX, last I saw the residual of a X3 was 53%, this was for a 3 year lease.

m6user

"The X3 has a better residual value then the RDX"

This is from a post by a host here at Edmunds that provides lease info.

"Acura's April buy rate lease money factor and residual value for a 36-month lease of a 2013 RDX Base with 10,000 miles per year are .00190 and 67%, respectively for consumers who qualify for its top aka "Super Preferred" credit tier."

Cars.com has 51% for 2012 RDX and 47% for 2012 X3 for a 3 year lease. They didn't have 2013 RDX in the system.

The following is from ALG.

"Luxury Brand Residual Value Rankings:
1.LEXUS
2. ACURA
3. INFINITI
4. MERCEDES BENZ
5. AUDI"

Only brands above the luxury average were ranked.

I know the last one is of brands and not a specific model but it makes me wonder how an X3 could be higher than a RDX if the brand was not even in the top five.

I couldn't find anything that indicated the X3 has a higher residual value then a RDX. Maybe you could shed some light on why you think that.

stickguy

675 looks right. I looked at the terms and MSRP was ~$35,210 and the residual was $2,100 or so. Comes out to 67%.

might help on the lease, but terrible if you wanted to buy it at the end!

Kirstie_H

Might be closer in residual if one looked at a 12K/year mileage lease. It seems those are more common, but I'm just guessing here. For all I know they could be just as far apart.

sweendogy

M6user- the statements from you on acura are correct about sales of the rdx and Ilx - here is a recent article from USA today James+R.+Healey- posted above but somehow missed- this settles the debate -

And The only reason people think the rdx has worse resid value is because it's not a BMW. I've seen this arguement before-

graphicguy

andy....I was speaking mainly about Acura vs Lexus. If you're to pick the sportier (my keyboard works) of the two, it would be Acura. I've recommended the TL SH AWD to a lot of people. It's a great car, made even greater by the $$$$$ it sells for.

m6...it sounds like you're looking for affirmation to buy or lease the RDX. Believe me, you'll get all the encouragement you'll ever want to buy a new vehicle from this crowd. Matter of fact, we relish doing it.

andys120

andy....I was speaking mainly about Acura vs Lexus. If you're to pick the sportier (my keyboard works) of the two, it would be Acura. I've recommended the TL SH AWD to a lot of people. It's a great car, made even greater by the $$$$$ it sells for.

I have to reiterate I guess. I'm aware that Lexus makes some distinctly un-sporty vehicles (RX/LS/ES) but since they make some good Rear Drive machinery and Acura has only got the new NSX most would say that in general Lexus is the sportier of the two.

To put it another way a RWD IS is sportier to me than an AWD TSX and I think most would agree. with me

fedlawman

I don't think you can argue one is "sportier" than the other. Both lines have much to offer, but lag behind the Europeans in dynamics and sophistication IMO.

Yes, Acura is FWD and AWD - which is a negative in the sport/luxury segment, but they have sweet shifting manuals and refined suspension tuning/dynamics.

Lexus, OTOH has more RWD cars, but they tend to be front heavy (for a RWD) and a manual shifter is only available on the IS250.

Ultimately, I think both Acura and Lexus fall well below BMW and Audi in terms of innovation, design, performance, and cache. None of which matters to the majority of consumers. We are enthusiasts, but most people shopping ELLPSs care about getting a 30GB hard drive and air conditioned seats for the lowest price.

m6user

"m6...it sounds like you're looking for affirmation to buy or lease the RDX."

Not at all. Why would anybody come here to look for affirmation on buying a SUV? It's just that the conversation hit on a vehicle/brand that I'm interested in. Only Acura we ever owned was a used Integra I bought my son for graduation many years ago so I'm not a brand loyalist by any means.

I don't lease but I am, in fact, looking hard at several different vehicles, both SUV and sedan, from different makers. Still can't decide if I want to get into an ELLPS or stay with a SUV. I do more than(anal could apply here) enough research on my own and have a pretty good handle on what's out there to be looking for affirmation from anybody. Just looking for good solid information....not biased opinions.

flightnurse

The dealership, when my partner and i were at the BMW dealer a couple of weeks back and test drove a 335d we were talking to him about the X3 and I asked about leases, he said the residual was 53%, higher then any other SUV in its class.

m6user

I understand. However, I just find it very one-sided to question my info that I got from a personal friend in the business and from personal experience of physically visiting dealerships and ask me for "data" to prove it. Then turn around and give me a number from a salesman and make it sound like a fact. What a crock. I guess it's all right for you to believe a BMW salesman but Acura salesman are just shysters. Ok, I get where you're coming from.

nyccarguy

I think the sales people (if you have a relationship with them outside of being a buyer) are a great way to gauge how well a car is selling (as M6User has pointed out).

I also use my eye on what's on the road (as flightnurse does). To keep this on topic, I think I've seen maybe 4 F30 3ers on the road since it was introduced in February (because NOBODY buys RWD BMWs in the North East anymore).

Another way is to check out the ads in your local paper. If an Acura dealer runs an ad that advertises lease deals (leader ad) for a Base TSX, a Base TL, a Base MDX, and then has a picture of the new RDX with a caption that says: 5 in stock w/ Tech pkg available for immediate delivery or order yours today, then you know you are probably going to be lucky with a $500 off sticker discount.

Manufacturers can skew data results in their favor to make it look like they have a "hot" product. A unit's sales numbers might be way up from last year, but you don't know how many were produced. Acura knew its 1st gen RDX was due for replacement and not selling according to expectations, so they could have scaled production way down.