Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1275276278280281860

Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    What's the title of this thread again? Oh yeah it's the entry level luxury performance sedan. If the 3er is not one of them why in the world we are talking about it then? I guess we are way too off topic.

    No, 3er doesn't compare with Camry, Camry is in the "midsize sedan" segment.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Can't properly use the power that the engine generates.

    Wow, says whom? You? Good god if you are such an expert why don't you get a job with C&D, R&T or become the chief engineer of BMW in that case.

    In case you haven't got your license yet, let me teach ya: in order to properly use the power that IS350's engine generates is to depress the gas padel. Once the car is moving forward or backward you are using the power of the engine.

    rear seat size does determine whether a car is a sedan

    Says whom? You again? Case closed.

    From dictionary.com

    sedan: A closed automobile having two or four doors and a front and rear seat.

    Sounds to me that the IS fits the description.

    What I said was that calling the IS an "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" is considered something of a joke

    Exactly, says by you again...Do I need to go on here?

    An alternative needs to be able to perform the same functions

    From dictionary.com:

    alternative:

    1. The choice between two mutually exclusive possibilities.
    2. A situation presenting such a choice.
    3. Either of these possibilities.

    So that was your definition again. What a surprise.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Apparently you don't read too well. A few points:
    - I never said that the IS wasn't a sedan.
    - I stated that there are some automotive historians that dispute the modern usage of the terms Coupe and Sedan.
    - I said that the IS "cannot effectively be used as a sedan". Different language, different meaning, and far more accurate.

    Regarding the IS being something of a joke in the "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans", hey, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't coin the term, even if I happen to agree with it.

    Regarding my usage of alternative, your snippet from dictionary.com supports my usage. Item 2 says "A situation presenting such a choice". That assumes that both options will each meet the minimum criteria. Item 3 says "Either of these possibilities". See the assumption from item 2.

    As the IS cannot be used as a true sedan, it is NOT an alternative to a 3-Series Sedan any more than a Mazda Miata is an alternative.

    "In case you haven't got your license yet, let me teach ya: in order to properly use the power that IS350's engine generates is to depress the gas padel."

    Pretty funny. In many countries in Europe, that mentality will only qualify a driver a "Restricted" license. I however qualify for a full unrestricted license as I am very well versed in telling a car how and when I want the power transmitted to the wheels. ;-)

    Like it or don't, the IS as it is currently offered to the driving public is only a half baked 3-Series competitor.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I never said that the IS wasn't a sedan.

    So it is a sedan then...case closed. It probably cannot be effectively used as a sedan for YOUR purpose but for MY purpose it is a perfect fit. Again, it's the your preference vs. mine.

    So if you didn't call IS a joke in the "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans", who did? Sources please. Don't tell me it's blueguysdotcom, if so that is just lame because we all know that his opinion weighs about as much as mine.

    As for the alternative, it merely means providing the general public with more options, that's it. If you don't like it get another alternative. Looks to me that your "minimum criteria" for "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" is a bit off from the general public's. Not that it's wrong, it's just...off.

    As the definition of a true sedan...please enlighten me what is it (I want REAL definition, not YOURS). Funny that we went from the definition of sedan to "true" sedan. It's kind of hard to shoot at a moving target ya know.

    We are living in America so the Euro discussion is irrelevant. However, last time I checked you are freed to move to other countries (sounds like a slogan...AirTran?).

    Like it or not, the IS is in the same market segment as the 3er and is doing quite well.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Keep in mind that not nearly everyone lurking and participating lives in the US or even North America - not at all! :)
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, maybe it's time for a poll.

    Questions:
    1) Is the Lexus IS large enough to be USED as a sedan on a regular basis?
    2) Does a small sedan qualify for the "Performance" moniker if it only offers a manual transmission on its most anemic engine?
    3) Based upon the pre-release Lexus marketing hype along with the pre-release rhetoric from Lexus management about the IS being a true 3-Series competitor, "Has the IS lived up to its pre-release billing or is it something of a joke?"

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I'll start:

    1) No, it's too small.
    2) Nope. For a car in this class it needs to at least offer an optional manual.
    3) It falls well short of the mark. Joke.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yeah pat but only NA and Japan get the IS350.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The CAMRY aka ES350 does not belong in this discussion, the 3er is fine.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Funny game, let's see...

    1) Yes. My IS is not a people hauler so it's truly large enough. On the other hand, if one haul people on regular basis, why buy an entry level lux sedan? :confuse:

    2) Yes. Don't see any direction relationship between "performance" and "manual tranny"

    3) Funny, it all depends on whose expectation. My answer is...If one is expecting a 3er clone, then yes it's joke, I guess you've got punk'd by Lexus. However, if one is looking for an alternative in the "Entry-level Luxury Performance Sedan" market segment then the IS is one of the best options out there.

    So, apparently you weren't the messanger, it's you whom call it a joke. Why can't you just admit it the first time? Also, this segment is called "Entry-level Luxury Performance Sedan" not "Let's all play 3er". Give Lexus some credit for being itself for crying out loud.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Let's all play 3er"."

    I don't think anybody is saying that, and as shipo pointed out, other competitors in this segment manage to offer a manual tranny.

    "However, if one is looking for an alternative in the "Entry-level Luxury Performance Sedan" market segment then the IS is one of the best options out there."

    What? By whose yardstick? Let me bring out a point the G35 folks have been saying for a while...You can get a baseline G35 out the door for about $30 large (with a manual tranny), which will wipe the streets at the price point. Yeah the IS350 might be faster, or not, but you have to spend $10K more to get it. For the people who value function over form, this is the holy grail of cars.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Did I say ES350 belongs in this discussion? Not that I recalled. I was stating Lexus has two entry luxury sedans (note: no performance) that are aiming for different market demographic. That's all.

    However, we've got to give Lexus some credit about selling those "camry" at $40+k and people are stilling buying it left and right huh?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "However, we've got to give Lexus some credit about selling those "camry" at $40+k and people are stilling buying it left and right huh?"

    I agree, if people can buy an overpriced $40K CAMRY, then what is the issue about buying an overpriced IS350 and overpriced 3 series?

    I disagree about lexus having two entry level sedans, one of them is an entry level performance sedan. The two of them are not aimed at the same market. Not even Lexus is that stupid to market to different cars on the same platform to the same demographic.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So you are comparing the outgoing generation G35's price to the newly just re-designed IS. Very slick. How the *beep* is the IS going to cost 10 grand more than the G35? I assume that the 30 grand you were talking about is the base model. Let me tell ya, you can get a base IS350 with 35 grand period. Case closed.

    Let's stay tuned to see if the new G35 will be going out the door for about 30 grand like you said this coming November.

    Apples to apples people!!
  • seltzseltz Posts: 10
    Entertaining discussion...I guess. I don't understand how you can possibly NOT think IS and 3-series should be compared. (Actually, by arguing, you ARE comparing them, aren't you?). Just about every auto magazine compares them. They naturally compete for the same dollars. So, why not compare them? The term "sports sedan" is nothing more than marketing. A Mazda6 is a "sports sedan." Bottom line: these cars (along with G35, A4, etc.) are cross-shopped and therefore it's perfectly appropriate to compare them. Each one offers a different take on price vs. performance vs. luxury equation, but they are all more similar than different. Geez.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 873
    great respect for Lexus, They have the marketing thing down for the mass majority of people, ie don't care about driving dynamics, or a stick. That said, I gotta agree with Shipo here. All the big talk from Lexus about how it's got the 3 series in it's sights and so on and so forth, and then to come out with a car that is unable to turn off traction control, and not have a stick, well the joke is on Lexus since they clearly know nothing about the soul of a "drivers car" which is why they targeted BMW in the first place. Nobody is calling Infiniti a joke, they for the most part get it. Audi for sure get's it IMO. Lexus does not. Kind of funny [see joke] IMO.
    Now the Lexus is a looker, and they are obviously classy cars. But no competition. It almost can't be considered sport IMO. The Audi has no back seat either, but they get the sport thing. If Lexus brought the driving dynamics, and the stick nobody would be saying a thing about the friggen back seat.....End of rant, good night now
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    1) Is the Lexus IS large enough to be USED as a sedan on a regular basis?

    No. I'm only 145 lbs and five-seven and I can't fit comfortably in the backseat of the IS350 with the front seat in my normal driving position (which is closer to the wheel than most as performance driving instructors suggest a position that's far less relaxed than most people use).

    2) Does a small sedan qualify for the "Performance" moniker if it only offers a manual transmission on its most anemic engine?

    No. I wanted the IS350 as a replacement for my BMW ZHP. I was frothing at the mouth when they announced the car. Finally, someone would tackle BMW and I could get away from a brand I loathe. No manual = supreme boredom. A bad automanual - like the IS350's - makes driving not just boring but annoying. The double and triple downshift lag is unforgivable.

    3) Based upon the pre-release Lexus marketing hype along with the pre-release rhetoric from Lexus management about the IS being a true 3-Series competitor, "Has the IS lived up to its pre-release billing or is it something of a joke?"

    Doesn't even come close to what Lexus promised in 2005 at the NYIAS. The Lexus execs lied. They claimed the IS would lead not only in luxury but performance. They claimed the car was designed to be the best-in-class in all categories. They lied. The handling, the tranny and the interior space don't even come close to the G35 or 3 series. The pricing structure and packaging makes the car ludicrously difficult to purchase with a sport package and xenon lights.

    My drives in the IS350 left me deliriously unhappy. Failing in every way - save for wizzbang gadgets - all the criteria important to me were left out of the IS: driving involvement, roadfeel, handling, packaging, etc.

    Lexus lied.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Dear god, you don't read too well do you? Let me post it again:

    Did I say ES350 belongs in this discussion? Not that I recalled. I was stating Lexus has two entry luxury sedans (note: no performance) that are aiming for different market demographic. That's all.

    Okay, so Lexus doesn't have 2 entry level sedans. One is entry level performance and what's the other one? :confuse:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I assume that the 30 grand you were talking about is the base model. Let me tell ya, you can get a base IS350 with 35 grand period. Case closed.

    Not with sport package. The manual G35 comes with the sport suspension standard. Ditto xenons.

    To get an IS350 with sport and xenons you're looking at nearly 40k.

    Say a 5k difference. Does that make you happy? Kinda funny the 4 year old G35 outperforms Lexus' brand new IS350. Relentless pursuit of perfection? Hardly.

    Let's stay tuned to see if the new G35 will be going out the door for about 30 grand like you said this coming November.

    I would be shocked to see the base G35 manual go for more than 34k. We'll see.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    one offers a different take on price vs. performance vs. luxury equation

    Bingo!!

    IS is comparable to 3er and they are in the same market segment but is definitely not a 3er with different sheetmetal and Lexus logo.
Sign In or Register to comment.