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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    For god sakes they put pleather in a $40K car. What's up with that ?

    Everyone knows it's so they can suck in all of the suckers with the lowest possible base price. The Euro is strong, the German unions rock and BMW rules. Just ante up and shut up.

    ;-)
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Just ante up and shut up.

    You are right, I should get me 2008' Caddy CTS. :P

    Rocky
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I hear ya... happy man, yooda man... ;-)
  • Overpriced 335i?

    I see you like to post a lot. A whole lot. As in, your last 10 posts were at 2;38 p.m. through 3:14 p.m. TODAY. And I suspect your previous 10 were in the previous hour. Unfortunately, the majority of these posts seem to be cluttered with misinformation. Very cluttered.

    My nephew is picking up a 335i coupe fully loaded with premium package (leather included), sport package, cold weather package and navigation at the factory (European Delievery Program) for $43,500 in December. For that price, they are throwing in a free session at BMW's performance driving school when he has time to go in the spring. By all measures of true quality and engineering, that is a very good deal.

    But I guess if you are inclined to buy GM junk for $20,000 to $30,000 that depreciates to about half that value in the first 18 months, $43,500 might seem like a lot of money. Or if you are inclined to have a non-challenging day job that allows you to spend hours posting 20-30 times a day on Edmunds, $43,500 might seem unachievable. I suspect you would be right on that count.

    The world is full of underachievers. BMW doesn't need to sell to them to be successful and personally, I hope they never lower themselves to doing that. Leather seating surfaces do not represent what makes BMW a superiorly engineered car, in case you've never driven one. You can put all the leather lipstick in the world on the GM pig and guess what you still have??? :confuse:

    If, in fact, $43,500 (or less, without the extra options) is too much for you to stomach, then make your choices accordingly. But don't chastise those who can afford a 335i as buying a car that is overpriced. Or suggest that a G6 with Lay-Z-Boy leather and Lay-Z-Boy handling can even be compared to a Honda Accord in quality, let alone a 335i. Or as an alternative, you might consider posting less and working harder so that eventually that $43,500 isn't so far out of reach. My company attorney (that I pay), makes enough in 1 hour a day to buy a new Ferrari 430 every year. Think about that when you are on your 20th post tomorrow.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    This argument about BMW being overpriced has been going on since the 70s. Back then a friggin' Chevy Monte Carlo was more luxurious than a 2002 and cost less. Some of us knew the difference. Has anything changed? No. The dood wants a Cadillac. I give him my blessings. Live and let live.

    "..but if this ever changing world in which we live in makes you give in and cry... say live and let die... bah, bomp bah... bah, bomp bah..."

    ;-)
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    ROTFLMAO, I'm sorry your butt hurt because I disagree with you and don't worship BMW's. I work 13 hr. days 4 days in a row then I get 4 days off. (on avg)

    Why do I give a rat what your company attorney gets paid ???? Do you own the company and over pay him ???? Just because you are self employed that makes your opinion better than mine ?

    I will easily pull in over $60,000 this yr. with zero Overtime. I'm in the top 20% in this country. I guess if that's being an under-achiever then label me as such. :surprise:

    It's not a matter of "if" I can afford a $43,500 car, but is the car "worth" $43,500. Most BMW's owners paid for the badge, rather than the car IMHO.

    I'm don't need to "attack you" the same like you did me to get my point across.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    The dood wants a Cadillac. I give him my blessings. Live and let live.

    Thanx designman, If you want a Bimmer, you have my blessings also.

    Rocky
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    but if this ever changing world in which we live in makes you give in and cry... say live and let die... bah, bomp bah... bah, bomp bah..."

    The soundtrack of the best James Bond film ever made. :shades:

    Not like those crappy Bond films they make nowadays. :lemon:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "ROTFLMAO, I'm sorry your butt hurt because I disagree with you and don't worship BMW's. I work 13 hr. days 4 days in a row then I get 4 days off. (on avg)"

    It's not that you don't worship BMWs, the lord only knows you are entitled and everybody respects that. Your tagline seems to be wait until 2008 and BMW will be toast. 2008 is two years away, live in the now! By 2008 BMW will be superchargings its M5, the M3 will be putting out close to 900hp. The 335i will be sipping fuel at 40mpg, while averaging 4 secs to 60.

    Yeah I know, you still won't fit in the backseat.

    The CTS-V will beat it, but you'll need a trunk full of money for the gas.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    The soundtrack of the best James Bond film ever made.

    Also, it was one of the two best songs by McCartney after the Beatles broke up. IMO the other one was Maybe I'm Amazed. I also like Nobody Does It Better by Carly Simon. But we digress, that's why I tried to get things going in the Luxury Lounge. But as we know, cars are the most important things in life and we absolutely MUST come to definitive conclusions in these car-specific threads. Accordingly the Luxury Lounge is floundering.

    ;-)
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    "Under-achieving" and "over-achieving" are relative terms . . . boy I learned that lesson in school, the hard way. LOL. Achieving top 20% income level as early as the late-20's is quite impressive. Keep in mind however the average income earner do not buy the average-priced new car . . . the avearge income households buy used cars.

    It's really quite tough to afford a car that costs more 30-50% of the buyer's annual income at the time of purchase, unless the buyer is still living off parents or something. A typical car cost 50% of its purchase-time price in the three years after acquisition, through depreciation, interest payment, taxes, insurance, etc.. That means roughly 16% of income each year for someone acquiring a car that is priced at 50% of his income . . . that means roughly 30% of after-tax income each year for the first three years, for someone who buys a $40k car on an $80k income. That's just not manageable for most households. Lease subsidies, and manufacturers' rebates that do not get reflected in the lease residual can change the numbers significantly . . . but neither is available for 335i at this time.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Most BMW's owners paid for the badge, rather than the car IMHO."

    I'm glad you added IMHO. Because you don't speak for me, and I assume you know nothing about a BMW buyer, except for a small select few.

    You are right, people do pay for the badge. But a potential buyer understands what is behind the badge. BMW has worked very hard to engineer their cars for people who want the ultimate driving experience. If you haven't driven a BMW borrow one from one of your friends overnight and have some fun with it.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "It's not a matter of "if" I can afford a $43,500 car, but is the car "worth" $43,500."

    Why is a Porsche 911 twice the price of a Corvette?

    How is an $8,000 Rolex better than a $30 timex?

    Why would anyone pay $30 for an 8 oz tenderloin when you can get a 1/4 pounder with cheese for $2?

    Rocky, just because you can't tell the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there. It may not be worth it to you, but for many of us, it is.

    I applaud Cadillac for having the guts to build and market a car like the CTS. It's not sublime like a BMW, but it is a competent and appealing sport sedan by all accounts. GM is doing good things right now (Solstice/Sky, Corvette, CTS) and I hope they continue moving forward down the path they started.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    "Under-achieving" and "over-achieving" are relative terms . . . boy I learned that lesson in school, the hard way. LOL. Achieving top 20% income level as early as the late-20's is quite impressive

    I've made over $56K ever since I was 24. Last year I made $58K. This yr. I should eclipse $60K. I'm not boasting about it because it's never enough unless you are rich like brightness, "and money ain't a thang" :P J/K Hows your kiddo brightness ?

    Keep in mind however the average income earner do not buy the average-priced new car . . . the avearge income households buy used cars

    I agree with ya pal. However it seems like they are able to afford more house than I'd be willing to pay for. ;)

    It's really quite tough to afford a car that costs more 30-50% of the buyer's annual income at the time of purchase, unless the buyer is still living off parents or something.

    It can be done if the person is finacial savy and isn't in credit card debt, house broke, furniture broke, latest electronics broke. However I agree it's most wise not to throw money away on a expensive car that depreciates. However a car can be rewarding.

    A typical car cost 50% of its purchase-time price in the three years after acquisition, through depreciation, interest payment, insurance, etc.. That means roughly 16% of income each year for someone acquires a car that costs 50% of his income . . . that means roughly 30% of after-tax income each year for the first three years, for someone who buys a $40k car on an $80k income.

    If you've read the posts in this forum both you and I are dumb for looking at inferior cars from GM, because a BMW, holds its resale so well even though it costs a arm and a leg unless you want pleather and hardly no options. :surprise:

    That's just not manageable for most households. Lease subsidies, and manufacturers' rebates that do not get reflected in the lease residual can change the numbers significantly . . . but neither is available for 335i at this time.

    I agree with ya again brightness ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I have 2 friends that own 3 series. I drove both of theirs and agree they are nice cars. OTOH, like I said they don't do it for me. Why ? At that price I want some Detriot torque to get my heart racing. ;)

    Rocky
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Neither can the BMW 325Is, 2.0T A4s, etc. Guess they don't belong here either.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    It's not that you don't worship BMWs, the lord only knows you are entitled and everybody respects that.

    Well it seems like I'm getting chastized for mot following in lock-step with most of the forum. I left the 335i forum to avoid this. :P If any of you know me I'm not sensitive and enjoy a good debate though. ;)

    Your tagline seems to be wait until 2008 and BMW will be toast.

    I'm not saying BMW will be toast, but a good slice of the 2,000,000 unit pie should be taken by Cadillac finally. So yeah they will take some sales from potential Bimmer buyers. Well I should say they will win some back that BMW took over the last 3 years. ;)

    2008 is two years away, live in the now! By 2008 BMW will be superchargings its M5, the M3 will be putting out close to 900hp.

    900 hp. that's funny. ROTF !!!! :D You are quite the character kdshapiro ;)

    The 335i will be sipping fuel at 40mpg, while averaging 4 secs to 60. -see above post- :D

    Yeah I know, you still won't fit in the backseat.

    Yeah the knee and ears sitting style won't work for my family. :surprise:

    The CTS-V will beat it, but you'll need a trunk full of money for the gas.

    Currently at 100 hp advantage it get's the same EPA numbers as a 335i + in 2008' I'll get 200-300 more horses good for 0-60 in about 4 flat. :P

    Rocky
  • dandrews1dandrews1 Posts: 184

    "this thread isn't just about "entry level luxury", its about "entry level PERFORMANCE luxury." The X-type has no business here when it can't even perform up to generic family hauler specs."


    227 bhp in the x-type is still performance... does anyone remember the days of the 5.0l mustang with 200 hp - somewhat near the top of the heap for the times... now it seems like if you have less than 250 you're not worth looking at.

    So are we looking at entry luxury performancy in terms of horsepower, or in terms of price?

    If it's horsepower, I'll throw in my hand for the porsche boxster S. if it's price, I'll go with a Mercedes Benz c-class Kompressor
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I thought we were looking at entry luxury performance sedans ? :confuse:

    Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Rocky,

    I'm not going to give you a lesson on economics and try to convince you to buy a BMW. I'm not on BMW's marketing payroll and I don't care what you drive. Vice-versa I'm sure. But I will share my personal experience and why I don't ever see financially sophisticated buyers flocking from BMW (or Lexus, or Acura or..) to Cadillac.

    From 1987 to 1995 I owned a Acura Integra. Initial cost $12,600. Retired to Salvation Army in 1995 w/ 127k miles.

    From 1995 to present I own a Nissan Maxima. Initial cost $20,500. Retired from primary duty in 2004, but still alive and kicking at 155k miles.

    Perhaps there is a GM/Cadillac model that you would find attractive to own for the next 10 years. I have a seriously dificult time renting a GM for 10 days on business. For me, the value of a 335i, or any number of other really well built and well engineered cars, is that they can last 10-15 years - and still be enjoyable to drive at the end of that time.

    If you buy high quality that lasts, at a fair price, you will almost always be ahead of buying low quality at a cheaper price. GM has a long history of producing vehicles that, after 5 years, hardly anyone WANTS to own. They might have the ability to last 150k miles, but if they weren't already killing you with squeeks and rattles when they were new, they certainly will by the 5 year mark. I seriously doubt even you would find a 5+ year ownership experience desireable. I'm sure GM would have something with another 100 lbs of torque to get your blood going. And you'd be stuck trying to find someone who finds a 4-5 year old Caddy an attractive car. They may be out there where you live, but they sure aren't in my neighborhood.

    So in summary, I don't fault you for liking GM. That's your perogative. And, I certainly don't fault you for thinking $40k is expensive. I made the same as you when I bought that Integra and thought, at the time, that a $20k Legend was too much. But I would respectfully suggest that true build quality and long term value are not things that should be dismissed in favor of leather and torque. And that's where IMO, BMW will continue to shine over GM.

    P.S. In 1988 I bought a fixer upper house in a good neighborhood that I stretched for. This month, I'll send in the final mortgage payment. It's current market value is about as much as our 911S ... plus a 911 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo, and Carerra GT combined. So don't feel too bad for those of us that put money into a house instead of a Caddy... or a BMW... or even an Acura Legend. ;)
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