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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, an aluminum blocked and headed V8 being lighter than an iron blocked I6? Maybe I'm whacked, but I'm not all that impressed. That it's the lightest V8 in the world is far more impressive from my perspective. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I read 3483 lbs unladen weight for the E92 M3. That's about halfway between a 328i and 335i. Very close to the much less powerful E46 M3.

    Let's hope the stock suspension is dialed in better than the E46 was out of the box.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Wow, I didn't realize how incredibly portly these little cars are compared to mine. I have two Accords, a 1996 and a 2006, both are 4-cylinder models. The old one weighs less than 2900 lbs, while the new one weighs less than 3200. The compact, sporty BMW weighs 3,500-3,600 lbs! Amazing to me!

    I know guys, this isn't typically my forum, but I troll around occasionally, and just had to comment.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,906
    That is a good observation.. Excess weight is the enemy of good handling...

    I'd rather that BMW concentrate on weight reduction, rather than increased horsepower...

    Unfortunately, it seems much easier (cheaper?) to increase horsepower, than to reduce weight.

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well how bout the new Luxury car in the segment the Hyundai Genesis coming out next year ?

    Any comments from this crowd ? :blush:

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I can see it - they will just do the 80s GM version of luxury by adding things until the frame is straining to stay straight.

    I want a light and fast car. It's silly how a new 3 series is heavier than a 96-02 Mercedes E-Class. It's only 100lbs lighter than this:

    http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1991-to-1996-buick-park-avenue-4.htm

    Something's just wrong if the smallest cars are now almost as heavy as a ten year old Park Avenue.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    LOL, you do have a point. It's all the electronic nannies and safety equiment we are demanded to have. ;)

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    OK, good point. However, the overweight car I drive can out maneuver every CURRENT US sled in this weight class. Bar NONE.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    OW, what do you drive again ? A Bimmer ?

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    330xi. Best performing car I've had yet (even with the DGC weights designed in!).

    1966 Pontiac Lemans, 1968 Dodge Dart GT, 1969 Buick Skylark, 1976 Pontiac Grand Prix, 1988 Lincoln M7 LSC, 1997 Pontiac GP GTP, 2003 Lincoln LS

    I am ALL-Americaned OUT!

    Regards,
    OW
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,244
    may have quite a bit to do with this, along with any number of other nanny-state items. The old cars were light and were designed with the assumption that the driver would strap himself in & avoid all that he could. It's a YOYO (you're on your own) thing.

    Otherwise, you die, and there's no one to sue.

    That approach has been shown to be way, way out of date.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    ...and also due to the SUV-ramming factor for survival.

    The 330 does quite well despite the added weight, IMO. I' read the same about the E92 also. I am sure this would improve with -200 lbs. but it is what it is.

    I was in shock to see a Semi driver on the cell phone the other day negotiating a wide right turn onto the freeway with 16 wheels following his un-funfocused direction and thought about defensive driving can only get you so far...

    Regards,
    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well don't be surprised if a few Genesis, drivers next year around this time are giving you a thumbs up signaling they want to race you around a sweeper. ;)

    Rocky
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Why are we discussing a car that's at least a year away from production?

    That's a waste of bandwidth. Let's confine the discussion to cars that are in showrooms today.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    All variations of the first 7-series (E23) which were made between 1977-86 weighed ~3250-3600 lbs. That's less than today's 335 sedan, and it is all I need to remind me of how radically things have changed.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Okay, fair enough. However I remember about 6-months before the 335i came out all kinds of bandwidth was being wasted on that model. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well it boils down to having all these electronics being added over time which adds weight not to mention peoples expectations of having quieter interiors has added weight. I'll take todays weight, performance, reliability, over the past cars anyday. ;)

    Rocky
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    Bring it on, are you kidding me? :D

    Regards,
    OW
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I'll take todays weight, performance, reliability, over the past cars anyday.

    Not me, not with certain performance cars. I'm looking at older Porsches. There's too much sinew and gut left in them. I do like the 335 coupe and convertible though.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    Well, if the E23 handled like the 335i and infused as much acceleration, then the weight today is a waste. If not, this debate about weight could be half baked.

    Regards,
    OW
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I don't just consider acceleration. As a matter of fact, my priority is handling over power by a wide margin. The E23 was a good handling, low slung car and roomy to boot. I understand the price we are paying for safety and luxury, but something is lost on these newer cars and we don't have much choice in the matter.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Yeah, I'd be willing to bring it on and embarrass the 330xi :blush:

    Rocky
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Well, I've been hanging out on these boards for almost 9 years, & I've noticed that the quickest way to transform an interesting discussion into a brawl is to bring up a car that is months or years away from production. People get into arguments that can't be settled because they're about non-existent cars. You might as well fight over the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

    The 335i? The latest generation (E90) BMW is an attractive machine, but I don't lust over it the way I did over the E46. My 2001 330i (sport package, stick) is at least as much fun today as it was 6 years ago. I won't replace it anytime soon.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Ok, but to be fair, if the Lord said: "Designman your fate in life is to be in on car accident at 60mph, it will either be a head-on collision or t-bone and you can chose between the E23 and 335". What would be your choice of vehicles?
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    My feeling is that each aspect must develop and change so the experience we seek actually expands from previous iterations. My priority would be balance in all of the essential areas of performance. Creature features and added room are lowest on the pecking order.

    Regards,
    OW
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    are irrelevant because it will be neither "entry level" nor "luxury". Performance maybe.

    The right place to discuss the Genesis is the Mainstream Large Sedan Comparison board alongside with the Charger, 300, Avalon, etc...
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    At 60 mph in both situations you're toast in either car. Your point is about safety in which case a bigger, modern car is the best bet.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I disagree. I would rather take my chances in a high speed collision in the 335 than the older E35. It is a crap shoot, but I think if you can repeat the test a few million times as a simulation, modern engineering will prove to trump 15+ year old engineering.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,458
    at the Javitz Center today. Of all the ELLPS sedans I saw, the only one I really wish I could have driven off the floor was a CPO 330i ZHP (Just not with that Sand Interior...YUCK!)

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,366
    I agree the safety innovations we have today are a huge improvement considering the added weight in this group of vehicles. I am sure the additional weight of the safty gear is a fraction vs. the size increase more customers desire. BMW for one is reacting to that.

    If we consider the performance data, these cars are by far more advanced in every way than the bretheren of old.

    They just are a little more portly, may I say!

    IMO, I really thinks it's a matter of perspective. Coming out of the US boats all my life, this E90 feels like a butterfly! Does anyone really think a 335 would perform worse than the premium E46 given the extra weight in the twisties?

    Regards,
    OW
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