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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • Almost every car dealership adds points to a loan that's not through a manufacturer. AFAIK it's standard practice.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    re the "I don't know any BMW owners who think their cars are reliable" - Baloney - you ought to get out more. Yours truly has a 97 E39 that has over 152k on the clock. It has had routine maintenance, plus some power steering hoses replaced, a fan belt tensioner, and a manual transmission seal replaced. Yes, I expect some things may "go up" on this 10+ year old baby now (clutch is a little dicey but not yet ready to chuck); however, mine is NOT the only such story. Plenty of BMW owners will tell you that theirs is the MOST reliable car they have ever owned. And in any case, tell us about your Lexus with no problems that drives like a pig, and BMW owners will tell you about driving.
  • I know 10 people with BMWs - presently. sure that's not a scientific study but it's a pretty good representation of folks with 3 series to 7 series cars. Given my experience with 2 BMWs and that of every person I know personally, I feel extremely safe saying BMW are not well made. That won't stop me from getting BMWs...it will simply ensure I only lease them.

    And in any case, tell us about your Lexus with no problems that drives like a pig, and BMW owners will tell you about driving.

    I have a 2006 e90 330i right now. The brakes grind. The AC stops working. The comfort access works intermittenly.

    My 03 330i had a laundry list of problems and some BMW could never fix. Don't patronize me like I'm some kid off the street who has never been around a BMW.

    I know exactly one guy who swears by one of his BMWs - an e30 352. His e39 540 on the otherhand has cost him thousands upon thousands for tranny, electrical and brake work.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    habitat, agree with your post pal. I've had salesmen, refuse to help me out with "after sale work" because I wanted to go directly to the salesmanger. What I mean by "after sale work", is going over the cars features. Thankfully, I'm a self study and know how most of the stuff works anyways from reading "literature" about them in magazines and other sources. :)

    In my experience going to the salesmanger has saved me hours of time that I could be out spending with my new ride, instead of watching the salesmen ice me with the back n' forth tatic. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    The Volkswagon Passat. All the reviews I've read remarked at how Rock-Solid they are. I like the interior and exterior. It's ashame the "W" engine went away. Didn't they have some very severe customer service issues ? Would of liked to seen a Turbocharged "W" engine version.

    The new car though has decent performance. Wish ya could get a stick and a bit more power in a high performance version. Perhaps in the near future ? Didn't this car lack pwr seats or something which was a major gripe ?
    (off my memory)

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    an entry lux performance sedan.

    I know a loaded Passat can well be as nicely equipped as any cars that we discuss here but it just doesn't belong in this group because:

    1. VW is not a lux brand
    2. A little lacking on the performance side

    If we are to add Passat into the discussion we might as well add the followings too:

    Honda Accord V6 Manual
    Subura Legacy
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    And then you might as well add in the TSX, althought that is a little lacking on the "P" side as well.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I disagree with you on this one pal. "What else is new" :P J/K

    You honestly don't look at VW as a entry lux-brand like lets say a Acura ? :surprise:

    I will be honest and say I'm a lil' bit surprised some would say that. :surprise: I guess when you see the wood interiors and the 3.6 putting out 280 hp. with zero to sixty in 5.9 secs. I guess I'd ask the question of what is a entry performance lux-sedan ? :confuse: I guess I look at VW, as a more upscale car than a Accord or Subaru. The Spec B one could argue belongs couldn't they ??? ;) So this isn't a luxury performance car either ? :surprise:

    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=208060148&dealer_id=593623&car_year- =2005&search_type=both&num_records=25&make=VOLKS&transmission=&model=PHAETON&dis- tance=0&make2=&address=79029&advanced=&certified=&max_mileage=&max_price=&bkms=1- 160567820950&sort_type=priceDESC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&sta- rt_year=1981&drive=&engine=&fuel=&doors=&style_flag=1&cardist=864

    Rocky
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    And then you might as well add in the TSX, althought that is a little lacking on the "P" side as well.

    A "little"? That's an understatement...
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Lets not push it ! :P

    LOL

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    VW is not a luxury brand, no matter how you slice it. And I don't believe autotrader.com is the definitive answer for whether a car is in the performance category. BTW VW is getting out of the Phanteon business in case you didn't know. While I like their cars and thought they hit the nail on the head, the public apparently didn't believe the Phanteon was a luxury automobile either and it was a smash failure. Those cars originally went for north of $80K.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I don't know. The TSX has more defining characteristics than a VW as far as being related to this segment. Acura is a luxury manufacturer that produces semi-luxury cars across a wider price range.

    To me a VW has the same luxury as an Accord, and C&D measured the Accord to 60 in 5.9.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Okay, fair enough. You make some good arguments and got the opinions, which I was looking for. ;) I was interested in what y'all thought. I kinda looked at VW, as a car that might be able to be part of the talk, but according to you guys it doesn't belong here. No problem. ;)

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    You honestly don't look at VW as a entry lux-brand like lets say a Acura ?

    Nope.

    Again, it's not all about the HP and 0-60 numbers. Rocky, if you are so obsess with those figures you might as well looking for those modern day Boulevard cruisers rather than entry lux performance sedan.

    As matter of fact I would put the TSX into this category before Passat. Why? Because of its outstanding handling even though it's a FWD car. Based on the same reason, I would put Legacy before Passat as well.

    By the way, VW has discontinued the Phaeton in 2006 because it was just not selling with the "VW" badge. Why? Because people don't see VW as a luxury brand and they just can't justify to pay over $70K for a VW. Bottom line is, if the manufacture's low end model is selling around $15K then it's definitely not a lux brand no matter how you spin it.

    VW starts at $15K with the Rabbit
    Acura starts at $27K with TSX
    Lexus starts at $32K with IS
    Infiniti starts at $30K with G
    BMW starts at $33K with 3-series
    MB starts at $30K with C-class
    Audi starts at $26K with A4
    Even the Caddy is starting at $30K with CTS

    See my point here?
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,250
    Blue, I completely agree regarding LEASE ONLY. Whether it Benz, Accura, Lexus, Infinity, JAGUAR. Without the service/warrantee, you loose too much in a buy if you get a lemon. Even though in some states there is a lemon-law for 3-peat failure-to-fix, some cars have multiple problems that will drain your wallet that do not recurr but are costly failure non-the-less. JD Powers Initial quality still show many problems with all car brands.

    OW
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    See my point here?

    Yeah I do see your point. ;) You are ruining my opinion of VW. :P

    Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Acura starts at $27K with TSX

    Correction, Acura starts with an RSX that starts at $20k, not a heck of a lot more than VW.

    As an owner of two Acuras, I obviously like the company and its products. However, I would be the first to admit that Acura has not really leapfrogged Honda in terms of being a true "luxury" brand. The Integra was a Civic based car. The early legend was an Accord based car. The MDX and Pilot are twins. And, arguably, the most singularly unique and innovatively engineered performance car to come out of all of Japan in the last decade was the HONDA S2000.

    That said, I don't disagree that VW doesn't belong in the same group you listed. But I don't necessarily buy into the marketing hype of the Acura, Infiniti or Lexus "brand" value. They are only as good as the cars they produce, in my book.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Correction, Acura starts with an RSX that starts at $20k, not a heck of a lot more than VW.

    Not anymore. Acura is dropping the RSX from their 2007 lineup so now TSX is officially their lowest end model. :)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    So, I guess you would claim that pre-2007, Acura was in the same category as VW, but now it magically moves up into the "luxury" category?? :) ;)

    I guess my beef with the Japanese "luxury" brands (Acura, Lexus, Infiniti) is that they are all partially guilty of over-marketing to us dumb Americans the value of their "brand". At least Lexus and Acura tend to back it up with better customer service, Infiniti I'm not so sure. But if anyone thinks they've bought a fundamentally better engineered car if they've dished out a few thousand extra for an ES350 rather than a Camry V6, they are fooling themselves. A nicer interior and more leather, perhaps. But the same plain vanilla engineering.

    Notwithstanding my pocketbook loyalty to Acura, I'd still like to see them put more effort into delivering substance rather than image in some of their offerings, such as the (non) flagship, RL.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    But if anyone thinks they've bought a fundamentally better engineered car if they've dished out a few thousand extra for an ES350 rather than a Camry V6, they are fooling themselves. A nicer interior and more leather, perhaps. But the same plain vanilla engineering.

    So what? There are plenty of wealthy owners who want the latest on the most quiet, luxury ride, and don't care a hoot about performance. Most of the retirees, would you, they or anyone want them to show their Brian Vickers side? All power to Lexus for having a lock on those customers. Most other luxury carmakers wish they could break that lock.
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