Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1329330332334335842

Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Rocky, go home do some homework and get your fact straight before coming here and comparing apples to oranges.

    Entry Lux Performance Sedans:

    Acura - TL
    Audi - A4 2.0T/3.0
    BMW - 3 Series (335i/328i)
    Caddy - CTS 2.8/3.6
    Infiniti - G35
    Lexus - IS350/250
    MB - C280/350

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Entry Lux Sedan:

    Acura - No entry (I don't think TL-S should be in this category)
    Audi - RS/S4
    BMW - M3
    Caddy - CTS-V
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - Currently no entry (IS500 in the future)
    MB - C63 AMG

    Midesize Luxury Performance Sedans:

    Acura - RL
    Audi - A6
    BMW - 5 Series
    Caddy - STS
    Infiniti - M35/45
    Lexus - GS350/430/450h
    MB - E-class

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Midsize Lux Sedan:

    Acura - No entry
    Audi - S6 (is there a RS6?)
    BMW - M5
    Caddy - STS-V
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - No entry
    MB - E63 AMG

    Luxury Sedans:

    Acura - No Entry
    Audi - A8
    BMW - 7 Series
    Caddy - No Entry
    Infiniti - Q45
    Lexus - LS460/600h
    MB - S-class

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Luxury Sedan:

    Acura - No entry
    Audi - S8
    BMW - Currently no entry. However, heard that M7 is around the corner.
    Caddy - No entry
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - No entry
    MB - S63 AMG

    Now can we move on?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    louiswei is correct, however, a small chip in the 335 will probably make the CTS-V look like a snail. I'd be able to get a whole nights sleep and wake up refreshed. BTW was that time going downhill with wind at the CTS' tail?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,916
    I don't completely disagree with what you are getting at, but this is not specified in the top of the discussion.

    An M3 is still a 3-series, is it not? Yet the top of the discussion says "3-series" and not "3-series minus the M3."

    And, yes, I know there is no M3 RIGHT NOW. But there was and will be.

    As for your list, where is the TSX I pointed out in my post? Yeah, its a 4-cylinder, I know. But the mags and many owners seem to think its a sports sedan, regardless.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    If the V model is included the M3 has to be as well.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Is it size? Is it price? Is it where it falls in the manufacturers lineup?

    It's not all about size, not all about price and not all about where it falls in the manufacturers' lineup. It's about where does it fall in the market.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    rockylee you have got to stop this nonsense about the CTS-V. Compared to the 335i it falls short in every performance category. Plus it costs $15K more than a base 335i.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,916
    exactly

    which is why I question where the line is. Why the 335, but not M3? Why the CTS but not CTSV?

    If we exclude the top models like the V and M, then why are we allowing any kind of engine options? Should we only be discussing the TRUE ENTRY LEVEL vehicle in this discussion that we have named "ENTRY-LEVEL" vehicles??

    It would make for a boring discussion however. How enthusiastic can we be about the 328 vs IS250 vs TSX? Not very.

    So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    The fact remains it doesn't take a aftermarket chip for the Cadillac CTS-V to hand both the BMW 335i and M3 it's [non-permissible content removed].

    Y'all can spin it anyway y'all want to feel good. If GM, loses a comparo I give the other company a congrats. Take it like a man, and move on...good grief. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,916
    But honestly ... and this is not just directed at you rocky ... who the heck CARES???

    If I wanted something based STRICTLY on performance, I'd get a crotch rocket and put everything on this board to shame!

    As shoppers, especially shoppers in this category, we are looking for far more than performance numbers dictate.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.

    I don't know what I am onto but I think this board is dedicated to the regular models of the entry lux performance sedans. Whether it's 328i/335i or IS250/350. I think the M, -V and AMG are all special factory tuned models which should be in a class of their own.

    Like I said before, the market decides where does a car fall. For example, how many of y'all actually considered the M3, CTS-V and C55 AMG while shopping for your entry lux performance sedan. I know I didn't, my final 2 are IS350 and 330i. The M3 didn't even come across my mind. However, that's just me.

    blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The funny thing is the CTS-V is the same size as the G35 and Acura TL, both of which you guys say competes with the 335i.

    Since the M3 is about the same size as the Civic Coupe why don't we compare these 2 a well?

    M6 is about the same size as the Accord coupe and Solara we should put these 3 in the same class too right?

    :confuse:
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,916
    And your thoughts of excluding those are what I'm referring to when I say you may be onto something. However, its not specified in the topic description.

    What we are still missing from the definition, however, is why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The fact remains it doesn't take a aftermarket chip for the Cadillac CTS-V to hand both the BMW 335i and M3 it's [non-permissible content removed].

    You did see those Nurburing numbers I showed you yesterday right? CTS-V is 8 seconds slower than the last gen M3. I think it's clear who handed who's [non-permissible content removed].
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 16,916
    what you are missing is that he is answering the claim that the CTS competes with the 5-series and not the 3-series.

    And this is still the issue I posted above. We are allowing SOME mid-sizers but not others. It makes no sense.

    '13 Stang GT; '86 Benz 300E; '98 Volvo S70; '12 Leaf; '08 Town&Country

  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).

    I don't think Acura designed the TL to compete against the 5er and E-class. TL's main targets are 3er, IS and G and that's why even though it has the size advantage it is still considered as a entry lux performance sedan.

    Acura uses the 2-entry-model-sedan lineup with the TSX and TL just like the ES/IS combo for Lexus. However, that doesn't mean that TSX is the entry lux and TL is the midsize lux. It's just the strategy Acura decided to pursuit.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Ditto the TL. It's not all about size in this class. Some are bigger and some are smaller but ultimately the market will decide which class does it fall. I think most people in Cadillac will agree with me that their intention with CTS is to compete against the 3er but not the 5.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Again, where's the luxury of the civic coupe and accord ?

    Nice spin !!!!

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Again, where's the luxury of the civic coupe and accord ?

    I am just following your line of thought since you are comparing size to size.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I thought we were talking 0-60 times and remember you are taking a M3 coupe against a CTS-V sedan ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well I was using the size reference to defend the CTS vs. 335i arguement saying the TL, G35, are about the same size. You made the reference that the CTS-V competes with the 5 series and not the 3. I pointed out it was Cadillacs intention to use the STS-V against the BMW M5, is all.

    Rocky
Sign In or Register to comment.