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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Poorly laid out:
    The various controls that are often actuated, especially HVAC and window controls were difficult to reach comfortably and difficult to manipulate without having to take my eyes off the road. As for gaudy, well, admittedly that is personal taste, but there's waay too much bright work in the instrument cluster and dash for me.

    As for better in the class, once again that's a matter of personal taste. I find that the Audi A3, A4 and A6 have arguably the best dash and control layout of the bunch, and while I'm not as fond of the newer/less driver centric control layout of recent BMWs, even that interior seems far more functional and logically laid out. Geez, I even think the Lexus IS is better done than the CTS, and I am NOT a fan of the IS at all.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    I see, so if someone doesn't like what you like they're snobs? Yeesh!
  • But it's completely unfair to compare the CTS to a smaller, lighter vehicle.

    The 535i is the same size but is 300 lbs lighter. Shrug.

    Bottom line is that the CTS is the new 5-series/E-class competitor to this space. Get used to it.

    It's a competitor to neither the 3 nor the 5.

    Yes the CTS is on the heavy side and that's been a problem for GM's Sigma platform in general. In this class, only the Infiniti M35 weighs a tick more. But they got so many other parts of the car right. Yes, entry to the backseat is cramped, but frankly, I don't have rear passengers often unless they are my kids.

    Then what's the hangup on a barge like a 5 or CTS? Seriously you just went on and on about epa space and then come back by saying it's not important to you. So what is important? If space isn't an issue, then why opt for a car of that size?

    The CTS is now missing a couple of major features to properly compete in this space: a V8 engine option that's not a hot-rod (a la M-series/AMG/S & RS-class/V-series).

    Huh? 5 series and 3 series both have 3.0 300 hp engines compared to the Caddy's 300 hp V6. Strangely, that 300 hp 6 in the 5 and 3 propels both cars with electrifying power. What exactly is wrong with GM's engine development? The weight can't be totally to blame for the slowness of the CTS.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    pucks, nice job on the post. Got anything positive to add? :confuse:

    Regards,
    OW
  • Well, part of the reason the back seat room isn't a priority for me is because of my physical size. I'm nearly 7 feet tall, so shopping for a car is like being fitted for a suit. Since most car companies don't cater to someone my size, my shopping short list ends up very short. For example, the Mercedes E class, BMW 5 series both don't have enough room for my legs and knees. The Audi A6 is even worse. The Lexus GS doesn't have enough head room (the ES is better). The only CTS competitors I've driven that I fit into are the Infiniti M35 and the Acura RL.

    One of the reasons I liked the previous CTS was because it had enough leg room and knee room for me....barely enough, but it was enough. I was very afraid that the next generation car wasn't going to have enough room for me. Instead, I found that the front leg room and knee room was far better than the outgoing vehicle.

    So when you say that the CTS doesn't compete in "usable space", I would only say that I consider the extra room I get in the front seat versus the rear seat far more important for me concerning "usable space".
  • Wow, interesting. Can't argue with that. Why not go with a FWD car and get all that space back?
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    Well, no ELLPS can be comfortable for you! Go with the M35/45, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • I am with you sevenfeet. I sometimes drive 700 miles in a day. The CTS and the M35 are the only two cars on your list that would NOT have me squirming in discomfort for the last 100 miles. The BMW 3 would have me screaming in agony for that last 100.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,695
    I'm convinced this is part of the reason X5s and Cayennes are as popular as they are, even though there's no real off-road time expected. How else can you carry 4 large adults around in comfort with some sporting pretense? None of the ELLPS will do it.
  • Shipo,

    You're argument is a much better one than before...thanks! That's all I ask in a friendly debate. It's easy in a forum to end up doing the old "Monty Python Argument Sketch" in situations like this, especially when the debates often centers upon the objective and asthestic.

    For the recond, I've always thought that Audi made the best interiors in this space but since I can't fit in the driver's seat, it's pretty moot. BMW interiors to me are competent but too austere for me. The new CTS interior is light years ahead of the old one. Not perfect (what is?) but competetive.
  • The 535i is the same size but is 300 lbs lighter. Shrug.

    This is a poor rebuttle. My argument was that the CTS's measurements were within the parameters of the class. Weight was heavy, but still not the worst of the class.

    Then what's the hangup on a barge like a 5 or CTS? Seriously you just went on and on about epa space and then come back by saying it's not important to you. So what is important? If space isn't an issue, then why opt for a car of that size?

    When did I ever say that EPA space wasn't important to me? Please reread my post. I only used it to show the differentiation in the sizes of the vehicles. Everybody says the CTS is either better suited to compete against the BMW 3-series or is more of a "tweener" car in size. The measurements of this car say otherwise. You could successfully make that argument about the older car, but not this one.

    Huh? 5 series and 3 series both have 3.0 300 hp engines compared to the Caddy's 300 hp V6. Strangely, that 300 hp 6 in the 5 and 3 propels both cars with electrifying power. What exactly is wrong with GM's engine development? The weight can't be totally to blame for the slowness of the CTS.

    What I meant here was that virtually all the cars in this class (save Acura) offer both a V6 engine (sometimes two) and a V8 before getting to the "hot-rod" department. BMW has the 540i, Mercedes has the E550, and so on and so forth. Also, weight is a big factor in the performance of a vehicle but it's not the only factor. Available torque and where that torque is available on the RPM curve is very important. The CTS DI V6 has less torque than the 535i, and the CTS weighs more than the 535i. So noticing that the CTS is slower than the BMW isn't rocket science. Finally, gear ratios (transmission and final drive) are the third variable in the equation, but that's another discussion.
  • Sorry, I understand fully why the %35 and 335 are much faster than the CTS. I just can't comprehend why GM came late to the party and forgot to bring the potato salad.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    2003-2006 Cadillac CTS Reliability
    Trouble Spots
    Consumer Guide's® Auto Editors have scoured repair bulletins and questioned mechanics to search for commonly occurring problems for a particular vehicle. In some cases we also give possible manufacturer-suggested solutions. In many instances these trouble spots are Technical Service Bulletins posted by the manufacturer, however, we have our own expert looking at additional vehicle problems.
    Automatic transmission: The transmission may quit working due to fluid loss caused by the output flange nut coming loose. (2003-04)
    Battery: The battery may go dead overnight if the brightness lever for the panel lights is set to bright and inadvertently goes far enough to power up the dash integration module, but not far enough to turn on the courtesy lights inside the car. (2003-04)
    Electrical problem: The fuel gauge will read empty after filling up if the engine is left running. Trouble codes may also be set which will have to be cleared by the dealer. (2003)
    Engine noise: The brackets attached to the catalytic converter may crack or break resulting in a rattle or buzzing noise that seems to come from the engine compartment. (2003-04)
    Steering problems: -Service Steering System+ warning light comes on because of failure of the variable effort steering solenoid. (2003)
    Water leak: Passenger side carpet gets wet in winter due to ice forming in the HVAC plenum drain hose unless it is modified. (2003)
    Consumer Guide® Estimated Repair Costs
    This table lists costs of likely repairs for comparison with other vehicles. The dollar amount includes the cost of the part(s) and labor (based on $50 per hour) for the typical repair without extras or add-ons. Like the pricing information, replacement costs can vary widely depending on region. Expect charges at a new-car dealership to be slightly higher.
    Item Name Repair Cost
    A/C Compressor $750
    Alternator $460
    Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $3,550
    Clutch, Pressure Plate, Bearing $0
    Constant Velocity Joints $1,550
    Exhaust System $565
    Radiator $780
    Shocks and/or Struts $2,710
    Timing Chain or Belt $750
    NHTSA Recall History
    2004: Driver+s frontal airbag and/or roof-mounted side-impact airbag in some cars could deploy when ignition key is turned to -on+ position.
    2004: Washers for ball stud assemblies on lower control arm of some cars could fracture; separation of control arm from its knuckle will cause a corner of the vehicle to drop, and control arm may contact the wheel, resulting in dragging action and unwanted tendency to turn.

    What makes anyone think this will change in 2008??

    Regards,
    OW
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Well, who said that GM has to beat 335i/535i in acceleration with this new car. Granted that I LOVE straight line performance but I understand that not everyone is like me. There are people who value ride comfort, nice interior, sleek looking exterior (I am not saying CTS has one) and gadgets. The new CTS could by far has the best infotainment system in this class. I know that you don't value those much, for you it's handling and handling only but at the end of the day you are only one buyer out of millions. If people like you consist about 50% of the buying population then I'll start questioning Caddy for not making a 3-series replica.

    The new CTS will not be my choice if I am buying a car today. As matter of fact it won't even be the top 3 choices on my list. However, I do give credit when credit is due and I say kudos to GM for providing another alternative for this segment. More power to the buyer.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    1999-2005 BMW 3-Series Reliability
    Trouble Spots
    Consumer Guide's® Auto Editors have scoured repair bulletins and questioned mechanics to search for commonly occurring problems for a particular vehicle. In some cases we also give possible manufacturer-suggested solutions. In many instances these trouble spots are Technical Service Bulletins posted by the manufacturer, however, we have our own expert looking at additional vehicle problems.
    Engine knock: The 3.2-L (S54) engine reportedly suffers connecting-rod-bearing failures at a higher than normal rate, perhaps because some car owners are not using the required 10W-60 synthetic oil which is not readily available in the aftermarket. BMW is extending the warranty to 6 years/100,000 miles, (2001-03)
    Exhaust system: BMW issued a voluntary emissions recall to replace faulty crankshaft position sensors. (1999)
    Steering noise: Steering wheel buzzes or vibrates due to poor isolation of the power steering pump. (1999)
    Transmission leak: Manual transmissions' drain plugs may leak. BMW also suggests replacing the fill plug. (1999)
    Transmission slippage: Transmission may slip and/or check-engine light may glow due to torque converter clutch (TCC) slipping and/or TCC solenoid failure. (1999)
    Consumer Guide® Estimated Repair Costs
    This table lists costs of likely repairs for comparison with other vehicles. The dollar amount includes the cost of the part(s) and labor (based on $50 per hour) for the typical repair without extras or add-ons. Like the pricing information, replacement costs can vary widely depending on region. Expect charges at a new-car dealership to be slightly higher.

    Item Name Repair Cost

    A/C Compressor $770

    Alternator $640

    Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $810

    Brakes $445

    Clutch, Pressure Plate, Bearing $725

    Constant Velocity Joints $1,235

    Exhaust System $895

    Radiator $650

    Shocks and/or Struts $1,320

    Timing Chain or Belt $415


    NHTSA Recall History
    1999 323i/328i: Retaining clip that secures brake-booster pushrod to brake-pedal arm could detach from pin, allowing pushrod to disconnect, causing brake failure.
    1999: Side airbag system is unduly sensitive to certain noncrash impacts, such as contacting large potholes or curbs at substantial speed; could deploy without an actual side crash. Battery Safety Terminal could also activate, disconnecting starter cable from battery, so engine could not be restarted after being shut off.
    2000 323i/328i: Brake-lamp switch could fail internally, remaining either in "off" or "on" position; brake lamps would then either not operate or be continuously illuminated.
    2001 315i/335i: On some vehicles, tires could lose air suddenly, affecting vehicle control.
    2001 M3: Screws could fall into the parking-brake drum, reducing effectiveness or making screeching noises.
    2001: Failure of engine-fan motor can cause electrical circuitry to overload and fail, causing fan to stop operating, with consequent engine overheating and possible engine damage.
    2002 325Xi: There may be a crack in the rear brake rotor(s) that could expand due to braking torque, separating the brake drum from the disc.
    2002 325i, 330i: The front strut could separate from the upper mount due to an improperly installed thrust bearing.
    2003 325Ci/330i: Antiwindow pinching devices are not functioning properly on some vehicles. Dealer will inspect and replace all affected parts.

    What makes anyone think this will change for the E90?

    This is so pointless, I can make this argument about every car out there. :sick:
  • What makes anyone think this will change in 2008??

    What makes you think this WON'T??

    Let's be fair here. If you can find out the info for the CTS, then post up the info from CG for the other cars on the list, notably the 3-series, C-class, IS, and G35.

    Edit: Thank you louiswei
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,534
    Thank you for posting.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    What makes you think this WON'T??


    Because of GM's business model. As you can see, the cts had way more serious issues. I checked before I posted.

    Anyone can find out the issues of all cars in the ELLPS category. Thanks for the feedback.

    Regards,
    OW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Do you notice the only issue of substance related to this conversation is for 2002? The M3 and 323 are so far removed from this discussion to be meaningless.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,695
    I put the Caddy, BMW, and MB in the same poor pot, based on a number of years of CR surveys.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,401
    Agree. Asian is top, german next, US dead last, as usual. The dead last spot comes from many years of personal experience. :sick:

    Regards,
    OW
  • Well, who said that GM has to beat 335i/535i in acceleration with this new car.

    The law of the jungle. The escalating arms race necessitates that eventually somebody will produce a car with a Pratt and Whitney 50,000 HP turbine. I want to see that day and bask in the soul-warming heat of a jet-fuel-driven engine's exhaust.

    The new CTS could by far has the best infotainment system in this class.

    I don't even understand that. It's all just pops and bleeps to me unless you're outfitting the car with 50 caliber machine guns so I can take down accident lookie-loos and idiots that won't use turn signals.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "The escalating arms race necessitates that eventually somebody will produce a car with a Pratt and Whitney 50,000 HP turbine."

    Personally I'd be happy with a car powered by the venerable R-2800 (possibly/probably the finest example of a piston engine that will ever be built). ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,695
    Personally I'd be happy with a car powered by the venerable R-2800 (possibly/probably the finest example of a piston engine that will ever be built).
    This may be as close as we'll get:

    image
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    OMG! :surprise:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    outfitting the car with 50 caliber machine guns so I can take down accident lookie-loos and idiots that won't use turn signals.

    Trust me, I'll take the 50 caliber over any infotainment system, 30GB HD or massage chairs. I would love for my car to have a speaker that broadcast 3 preset messages:

    1. Yes, it's you, stop looking.
    2. The lady in the Camry, LETS GO.
    3. What the *beep* are you doing?

    However, like I said, I am pretty sure I am the minority here and most people do want a comfortable ride surrounded by 20 speakers.
  • Sorry, I understand fully why the %35 and 335 are much faster than the CTS. I just can't comprehend why GM came late to the party and forgot to bring the potato salad.

    The CTS is hardly late...a five year product cycle is typical...for the record, the old car was sold for about 5.5 years.

    Second, since the '08 CTS wasn't a "clean sheet" design, it has to deal with some of the issues of the previous car, namely the chassis. The chassis is an update to the same Sigma chassis found in the old CTS, the STS and the SRX. That chassis is known for its strength and all around performance, but it's not the lightest design out there. Some automakers are putting more and more aluminum in their chassis designs but this is expensive and have implications for repair shops. So the '08 CTS got an update on the old system, but at a cost of weight savings a new design would have brought.
  • The BMW turbo charged engine generates damn near weapons grade torque at damn near "nuttin'" RPM's.

    The CTS DI engine generates adequate, nearly ample torque -- but not so much when compared with the BMW blown engine which generates MUCH more torque at MUCH lower RPM.

    The CTS at this "point of inflection" is a direct competitor with the BMW 3, Audi A4, Infiniti G35, etc.

    It's wheelbase, to be sure, is 5 series -- but that "don't make it -- yet -- a member of the club."

    The CTS is perhaps a 4 series or whatever might be comparable in the imaginary car world.

    This makes the CTS perhaps somewhat of a bargain, since it is priced like the cars mentioned above that actually are being produced today, but is somewhat "more" than its price might otherwise suggest.

    It seems, to me, however, to be "state of the art" 2004 -- and that is NOT a bad thing, especially at the price most of us will be able to lease one for.

    It is a great effort, a very nice car, one that I would not kick out of bed for eating crackers -- but it is NOT a car that leads in any area, save perhaps price.

    Drive a $40K G35X sport back to back with a $48K CTS AWD DI and make up your own mind.

    Despite what you might conclude, if the CTS had decent bluetooth, I'd probably pick it over the G, based on what I assume the discount on the CTS will, shortly, be normal.

    Why? :confuse:

    I love the interior of the CTS and I'm going to "vote" American if I can, this time.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I put the Caddy, BMW, and MB in the same poor pot, based on a number of years of CR surveys.

    What "years" of Consumer Reports are you referring to? The previous generation BMW 5-series got the highest rating ever given by Consumer Reports. Caused my former boss to ditch his Lexus ES and move up to a 528i which he still has with 140k+ miles and virtually 0 problems.

    I'm not sure where the current BMW's stand in CR but the pre-i-Drive models were rated way, way, way above GM and way above Mercedes.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,695
    In '05 or '06 these models had worse or much worse than average reliability: BMW: 5 series, 7 series, M3, X3; MB: all; Caddy: SRX, STS
    My apologies to the 3 series and the CTS, they're OK. (But I still cannot fathom iDrive)
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