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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    He-he. While I'm rarely in a position to say nice things about the IS, I think in this case the IS250 will handilly beat a LaCrosse Super around a track, in spite of its 96 HP disadvantage. The IS350 on the other hand will literally run away and hide from the Buick, probably as quickly as the first turn. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 95
    Uh, fastest buick ever? Don't make me laugh. Ever heard of a Grand National? How about GNX? Oops, I laughed. :D
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Uh, fastest Buick ever? Don't make me laugh. Ever heard of a Grand National? How about GNX? Oops, I laughed.

    And the LaCrosse Super, just like the the GNX, is a muscle car. Great in a straight line, but that's it.

    A Sports Sedan/Coupe is:
    RWD or AWD.
    Manual available.
    As close to 3000lbs as possible.
    An emphasis on handling over straight line performance and HP.

    Buick is:
    FWD.
    Automatic only.
    Nearly 4000lbs.
    Insanely powerful and overbuilt.

    It's a muscle car. Is it any surprise considering what company made it? GM groks muscle cars, after all.

    Compare it to a Impreza, RX-8, or GLI. (yes, these aren't luxury, though they are the essence of sporty). Dropping in leather and a bigger engine - that's Mercedes trick. And it's a complete dead-end as they've found with their E Class(which is a Taxi in Europe. Nobody in Germany buys one for personal use)
  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 95
    I was merely refuting the fastest Buick line. It's definitely not a sports car and is soundly in the muscle car range as you rightly pointed out.
  • jpstax1jpstax1 Posts: 197
    He drove it into the wall? That reviewer must be an incompetent moron. BTW, for every negative review, there's a positive one, such as this one:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/features_classic_- cars/the_quickest_sedans_of_2008_30_000_to_40_000_feature+page-4.html
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Gimme a break!

    It’s no GNX, and 20 years later, it is almost a second slower to 60 mph.

    ...if not for the omnipresent torque steer, it might drive better than many Lexuses,

    The question is... which ones? I'll guess they did NOT mean the IS.

    The LaCrosse Super wasn’t designed to be a sports sedan, with all the comparisons that invites, and is instead billed as a “luxury touring sedan.”

    Hence the reason why it doesn't belong in this category.

    The 300 horsepower and the 323 pound-feet of torque will whisk upsold octogenarians to 60 mph in 5.7 seconds, if the torque steer at launch doesn’t snap their calcium-depleted wrists.

    High praise indeed...
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Ahhh, I see you're a spin doctor. Nothing in that review even remotely suggested that the LaCrosse should be considered a "Sports Sedan". A "quick" sedan, yes, but fast in a straight line does not a Sport Sedan make, like it or not.

    Regarding that review, hmmm, 8th out of 10 in a contest that stressed acceleration over handling, not exactly a stellar showing. Had handling been more on equal footing, the LaCrosse, what with its nasty nose heavy bias and FWD would have done even worse.

    Regarding that crack you made yesterday about me researching what I post before I post, well, I think the content of the last many posts (forgetting yours of course) plus the two cited reviews (including the one you referenced) pretty much says it all. Simply put, the LaCrosse, regardless of how much motor is stuffed under the hood, does not belong in a discussion of "Sports Sedans".

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    The LaCrosse Super wasn’t designed to be a sports sedan, with all the comparisons that invites, and is instead billed as a “luxury touring sedan.” It does, after all, share its chassis and engine with Chevrolet’s Monte Carlo SS and Impala SS, as well as the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, and front-wheel drive does none of these cars any favors.

    This came from the article you referenced above, therefore its not a sports sedan
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,369
    The only sports sedan GM makes is the 2008 CTS and the CTS -V. I do not consider '07 CTS and back a true sports sedan.

    The usual. Oh well. We will continue to wait...

    Regards,
    OW
  • r34r34 Posts: 178
    A sedan with big engine is not necessary a sport sedan. Better handing and feedback from the road are more important than 0-60 time; otherwise, a 200+ minivan may be considered as "sport minvan" (don't get me start talking about those stupid minivan drivers who think they have a sport car).

    If that guy keeps talking about FWD sedan, maybe a Saab 9-3 is the best Sport Sedan for GM because it is more a sport sedan than the Buick (I know, it may not have the best handling but it is not bad at all).However, it is a Swedish (import again). I remembered the Viggen has 155mph top speed too and most 9-3 can go beyond 145mph (4 cyls turbo vs. Buick's...).

    A lot of cars have very high top speed but not all of them can be driven safety and stable at that speed.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Actually drove an 08 CTS DI (close to fully loaded (45k) with sport suspension...not the extreme one...one down (all season tires)) as well as a 6spd (non DI) which was pretty basic.

    The DI was very nice with a panoramic roof; gorgeous on the inside and out. With the TC turned off I was able to get the back end out a couple feet. It was fast but not a "wow". The shifts were very smooth (that was a wow)...but when doing my power slides (never buy a demo car ;) ) the auto-manumatic took over a second to shift...so i bumped it off the rev-limiter before it decided to shift.

    The 6spd was nice as well...didn't have the rush in the higher rpms; but the throws and clutch take up was ok (not disappointing) . Although there was a high amount of vibration coming through the manual (similar to a G37 I drove a couple weeks ago).

    The CTS does need the upgraded interior...the base really does look like a "base" and shouldn't be sold with the name plate (assuming they want to keep it prestigious)
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    ... I do not consider '07 CTS and back a true sports sedan.

    Why not? And what about the STS and STS-V?
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    And both the LaCrosse and the IS350 would be breathing diesel fumes from a BMW 335D Auto. At least until the first corner. After that they'd be in clear air as the Beemer ran away from them. :)
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    LaCrosse sure, but I doubt a 335d could "run away" from an IS350 on the tracks. Let's not pretending that it's a M3...

    By the way, it's "Bimmer" not "Beemer". ;)
  • jpstax1jpstax1 Posts: 197
    As much as it hurts me to say this (I hate Bimmers), "alltorque" might be right about the BMW 335, because an Edmunds review says it IS comparable to an M3:

    [quote] Driving Impressions
    There's no going wrong with either of the engines available in the 2007 BMW 3 Series. The standard, normally aspirated engine is a little light on low-end torque, but it moves the car around smartly and provides slightly better mileage. The new twin-turbo engine provides the kind of acceleration formerly associated with the high-performance M3, launching the 335i coupe and sedan to 60 mph in close to 5 seconds flat. No matter which model you choose, the 3 Series' world-class suspension, steering and brakes will provide hours of entertainment on twisty two-lane highways. Beyond simply feeling rock-solid when hustled around turns, this car communicates with the driver in a manner that inspires confidence no matter what kind of driving you're doing. At the same time, the 3 Series is an ideal long-distance cruiser, delivering both a comfortably controlled ride and a quiet cabin environment.[unquote]

    That implies it could very well "run away" from an IS350 on the tracks.

    Link to the 335 review: http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3series/2007/review.html

    Link to the IS350 review: http://www.edmunds.com/lexus/is350/2008/review.html
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    ""alltorque" might be right about the BMW 335"

    Except that "alltorque" was talking about the 335d, not the 335i. Big difference.

    "because an Edmunds review says it IS comparable to an M3"

    As has been pointed out, there's more to a sporting car than just how quickly it accelerates in a straight line. As has been discussed here, and elsewhere, the 335i doesn't hold a candle to any M3 of recent vintage (E46, E92).

    One thing positive I will say about the 335d - even it's quicker and better handling than a Buick... :blush:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I believe you are referring to this:

    The new twin-turbo engine provides the kind of acceleration formerly associated with the high-performance M3, launching the 335i coupe and sedan to 60 mph in close to 5 seconds flat.

    But again, you are only focusing on the straightline acceleration. You do know that according to R&T IS350 can do 0-60 in 4.9 sec right? If that's the case I would say it does provide the kind of acceleration formerly associated with the high performance M3 as well.

    Nothing in that article indicates that the 335i can hang with the M3 on the track. I wouldn't be surprise to see a 335i beats an IS350 on the track but I don't believe it'll "run away" unless I see it myself.
  • jpstax1jpstax1 Posts: 197
    "One thing positive I will say about the 335d - even it's quicker and better handling than a Buick... "

    Better handling? How do you know that? Have you test driven a LaCrosse Super? It was a far better handling car than any of the other Buicks (LaCrosses and Lucernes) that I test drove. It was one of the main reasons I bought one.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Better handling? How do you know that? Have you test driven a LaCrosse Super?

    Please tell me you are joking. Let me ask you a question: have you ever driven a 3-series before?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "It was a far better handling car than any of the other Buicks (LaCrosses and Lucernes) that I test drove."

    High praise indeed! :P
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    OK, I can't stay away any longer.

    The LaCrosse Super is 3800 lbs, 198" long, has a 63/37 F/R weight distribution, a slushbox transmission, and FWD. Tell me what part of these specs says "sports car" to you?

    Here's a Motor Trend comparison from a couple years ago that includes the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP (the Buick's higher performance brother) against the Nissan G35 and Subaru STi. I'll spoil the ending and say that the Pontiac come in dead last in all but one (braking) performance measure. Now, take the already underwhelming Pontiac and add 200 lbs, a softer suspension, slower throttle response, and skinnier/slipperier tires, and you've got a Buick Lacrosse Super.

    At least, in a different article, Motor Trend said the Buick rides better than the Pontiac. I guess that's a plus for some people, right? :blush:

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0506_front_rear_allwheel_drive/ind- - - ex.html
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    I know something about large, nose-heavy FWD cruisers because my wife drives (& loves) an '07 Lexus ES 350, which has been called, accurately enough, a Japanese Buick.

    As a highway cruiser, it's OK. Quiet, composed, with good seats (the best I've ever experienced in a Japanese car) & a superb stereo. (Her car has the optional Mark Levinson.)

    All in all, not a bad car - as long as it's traveling in a straight line. But it doesn't like curves & it hates (if a car could be said to hate) anything that remotely approximates spirited cornering. In short, there is nothing entertaining about driving it. With 270 hp driving the front wheels through a 6-speed slushbox, it's more than powerful enough. But the steering is numb & only those who regularly use the words "fun" & "torque steer" in the same sentence will enjoy driving it.

    I also know something about decent handling. My car is a BMW 330i with sport package & stick. Can you guess which car we take if the choice is up to me?

    When we do take the Lexus - either because we're going out with another couple & need the extra back seat space or because I'm planning to knock back a few - I'm perfectly happy to let my wife drive.

    In short, it's a fast car & it's a luxurious car. But it's not a luxury performance car.
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    You actually bought the Buick :confuse:
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Yeah, and even after buying it, he continues telling himself that it's a "Sports Sedan". :p

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    In all fairness, the Buick LaCrosse is a very nice car. No, it's not a sport sedan, and no it doesn't belong in this discussion, but taken for what it is, it's a heck of a lot of car for the money.

    By all accounts (magazine reviews - I've never driven one), it handles well for what it is, solid as a rock and quiet as a tomb on the road, and comfortable and plush inside. And FWIW, Buick consistently ranks at the very top of JD Power and Consumer Reports quality and reliability surveys. Actually reminds me of the Honda Accord. Not directly, but the Accord is one of those cars that, while not a sports car, just feels right when you drive it. The controls, the feedback, the view, etc. It's just a car that feels good. Maybe the LaCrosse is like that? You've got to admit, it's nice to finally see an American car company making such great strides to improve quality and appeal. The LaCrosse and Enclave, the C6 Corvette and CTS, the G8, the Malibu - all nice cars with nice interiors, good looks, and solid performance and quality - they actually compete with imports on a level playing field.

    I won't buy an American car yet (the last burn still hurts), but in 5 years, at the rate they're going, maybe I'll have another look.

    Anyways, the majority has spoken and I think it's time for us to let the Buick thing rest. Buick enthusiasts from around the world (all 8 of them) can start a thread somewhere else. :blush:
  • jezmiajezmia Posts: 36
    Now sure if anyone reading this would already own a 2008 328i sedan automatic RWD, I was curious to know what was really the mileage per gallon in the city and highway, I know this depends varies from driver to driver, but wanted to get an idea. Also if you own a G35 I would love your inputs. thanks!
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,369
    It's the weight issue.

    Regards,
    OW
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    If you look in the 3-Series group and the G35 group, you'll find Real World MPG discussions for each vehicle. Hope this helps!
  • jezmiajezmia Posts: 36
    Thank you very much for the information, I was able to find what I was looking for.

    thank you!
  • jpstax1jpstax1 Posts: 197
    These will be my final replies regarding the LaX Super (I promise):

    To "louiswei": [quote]Please tell me you are joking. Let me ask you a question: have you ever driven a 3-series before?[unquote] [Answer]Yes! I've driven my daughter's 2004 BMW 330i convertible a few times. I didn't like its bucket seats (they were very hard to get in and out of) and it lacked pickup. Nice radio though.

    To "jimbres": [quote]In short, it's a fast car & it's a luxurious car. But it's not a luxury performance car[unquote]. [Answer]Buick is calling the LaCrosse Super a luxury performance sedan, not me. I have no reason to doubt them.

    To "sjaiave": Yes, I actually bought the Buick.

    To "shipo": I don't keep telling myself it's a sport sedan. However, as I told "jimbres", Buick is calling the LaX Super a luxury performance sedan.

    To "fedlawman": Thanks for your objective thoughts about the car. However, the title of this discussion is "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans", not sport sedans. So, in my opinion, the LaCrosse Super does belong in this discussion.
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