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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1348349351353354593

Comments

  • donniemdonniem Posts: 4
    Diesel prices are no better and my minds set on a new TL. Or possibly a used TL
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,678
    "...Diesel prices are no better..."

    but the mileage is.

    I'm not certain when the "new" TL is officially released, but I think it's being call an 09, so you may be able to get the existing model for a bargain.

    I haven't heard wonderful things regarding the TL mileage in the city; but I think the highway is reasonable
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I haven't heard wonderful things regarding the TL mileage in the city; but I think the highway is reasonable

    No car in this class has wonderful city mileage.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,311
    "No car in this class has wonderful city mileage."

    Well, I guess it's all relative, but my new TSX is getting 30 driving to work and 26 in stop-and-go surface street duty. On a recent drive to Tucson & back, it was at 33-34, and that's with a new, tight engine. I'm looking forward to a couple mpg better by the time I've got 10K on the motor.

    Compared to where I'm coming from, that's borderline wonderful.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Okay, how about "everything in this class except the TSX" since it is a 4-banger. Maybe I should throw the A4 2.0T into that group as well...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Yeah but the 2.0T doesn't feel underpowered like the 2.4 in the TSX. :)

    j/k
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Actually bgdc, you are right, the A4 2.0T is definitely not underpowered as the TSX. However, the turbo lag is just so craptacular so it's almost like pick your poison...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    There's turbo lag on a 2.0T? Are you trying to launch the car at 1200 rpm?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Turbo lag on a 2.0T? Uhhh, I've gotta tell you, I owned a couple of 1980s vintage turbo charged cars and know very well what turbo lag is, and what ever it is, the 2.0T doesn't have it. Errr, well, I suppose you could induce turbo lag by sidestepping the clutch at a whopping 900 rpms, but come on, how real world is that?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    There's turbo lag on a 2.0T?

    Yup.

    At least that's how I felt after having one for 2 weeks as a rental. The BMW 3.0TT is the one that eliminates about 99% of the turbo lag. Drive the 2 back to back then you'll understand.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Sorry, I've got to beg to differ. I've driven an A3 2.0T on several occasions and not once have I been tempted to say, "Gee, that turbo lag is annoying."

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Okay... I guess I am just more sensitive about the turbo lag than you are.

    What do you want me to do? Say that I am wrong and apologize? :)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,988
    I am a big proponent of diesels, but short term the prices are sky high. My driver had to fuel up our company truck today. He said he was very low and had to get fuel before going downtown (Manhattan). I thought my Dad was going to have a heart attack when he saw we paid $4.99/gallon for diesel!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,311
    ". . .how about "everything in this class except the TSX" since it is a 4-banger."

    Okay, I'm guilty. I don't care so much about acceleration, but I do like to go around corners. This is much of why I would have bought a 1.9 or 2.0 litre diesel anytime in the last several years, had one been available in an RWD or AWD car. Now that the 335d BMW is almost available (only with an automatic), I'm nonplussed. Buckets of power doesn't row my boat, especially if the car isn't available with a manual transmission.

    It may be interesting to some people that luxury (or something resembling it) and handling doesn't have to come with neck-snapping acceleration to qualify as "entry-level luxury."

    YMMV
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    ...Is it known that the diesel model will have a manual option? It'd be nice if it does...
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    Here is a cu from Automobile mag regarding a face lft for the 3'er and a ti option.

    The good stuff could start arriving as early as later this summer, with the face-lifted 2009 3-series. That car is under consideration for a tii version that, in addition to styling tweaks, would include M3 brakes, nineteen-inch wheels, a sport suspension, a dual-clutch transmission, and increased boost pressure that would bump the output of the 3.0-liter twin-turbo engine from 300 hp to about 355 hp.


    Sounds good to me. What do you think?

    Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I don't want more HP, I want less weight. :cry:
  • rascal99rascal99 Posts: 54
    Just give us the *&^%# 1-series hatchback already!!

    image
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Drop the heavy stuff - sunroof, 19 inch wheels, power seats, insulation, worthless gizmos (self drying brakes, dual hvac, auto windshield wipers) and finally ditch the metal fenders for plastics.Maybe they can get 150-200 lbs out of the car. Finally, ditch the inline 6 for a twin turbo 4, and lose another 200-300 lbs. Ah, now you've got a fun sedan at 3100 lbs.
  • rascal99rascal99 Posts: 54
    +1

    I propose BMW spawn a separate (tii) division that caters to lighter, funner cars; howeber, that would undoubtedly be seen as *gasp* "diluting the brand".
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    The 335i already kicks the competition's a** as far as perfomance, why are they duplicating efforts with the tii?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Because the 335i has zero appeal to enthusiasts. BMW doesn't make a car that caters to people who want fun and light.
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    Isn't that what the 1 series is meant to achieve. The tii based on the 3 series with 350 hp is just going to cannibalize on the M3, isnt that where the higher margins are? The 135i will probably do the same for the 335i.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    The 1-series is what the 3-series should have been in the first place. It could stand to go on a diet too...
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,854
    Amen.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    But at less than 3,400 lbs, it's not that bad, is it? Considering all cars seem to have spent too much time at the drive-thru, I think it is worth considering this chassis could be trimmed to around 3,200 lbs under true tii engineering.

    I don't know...you guys know better than I. What else is available new at a 135i level of return (to a true enthusiast bent) in the market today? Yes, the argument for past BMW marvels aside, what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.

    Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?

    All these are "Super Size Me Please" variants of the past also. Is the 1'er the best of the worst for precision driving dynamics at the end of the day or a last-ditch effort to entice the past audience back into the show?

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Drop the heavy stuff - sunroof, 19 inch wheels, power seats, insulation, worthless gizmos (self drying brakes, dual hvac, auto windshield wipers) and finally ditch the metal fenders for plastics.Maybe they can get 150-200 lbs out of the car."

    I heartily concur. ;)

    "Finally, ditch the inline 6 for a twin turbo 4, and lose another 200-300 lbs. Ah, now you've got a fun sedan at 3100 lbs."

    Oops, ya lost me there. Why? Well, several reasons actually:

    1) I'm a fan of smooth engines. The I6 that BMW uses is an engine type that is naturally in perfect balance, meanwhile, I4 engines are natural shakers with considerable second order (i.e. twice per revolution) vibrations. Granted, these vibrations can be counteracted with the use of balance shafts, however, said shafts add needless weight and complexity to the engine.

    2) like I said, I'm a fan of smooth engines, and in the world of four-stroke engines, unless an engine has at least five cylinders, it becomes a "push-me-pull-you" affair with the engine driving the flywheel and drive train during the power stroke of any one cylinder, and then the drivetrain and flywheel driving the engine between each power stroke. With BMWs I6 engine, not only do you get an engine that is in perfect mechanical balance, but you get one that is always supplying power to the flywheel and drivetrain.

    3) While I don't have the actual weights, I'm thinking that the composite metal blocked engine of the 3.0 liter engine in the E90 325i, 328i, and 330i is rather lighter than say Audi's iron blocked 2.0T. With the I6 engine design, all that is needed for vibration free engine is a block, a crank, and six piston/rod assemblies, With a high specific output blown I4, you typically have to cast the block out of lamellar graphite cast iron (GJL). Once you have the block, in addition to the crank and four piston/rod assemblies, you need to add two balance shafts (and the associated drive mechanisms), a turbocharger or two (and necessary plumbing and intercoolers and such), and a heavy flywheel that can help smooth out the torque reversals from the intermittent application of power.

    All-in-all, I'm thinking that I'd MUCH rather have a naturally aspirated I6 than a blown I4. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,988
    My sub 3000 pound 3 series coupe tomorrow after work. I bought a 1990 E30 325iA :shades:

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Nice job. ;)

    So, how difficult do you think it's going to be to delete the "A"? :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 31,090
    Yeah... that's what I want to know..

    I'm guessing $1500-$2500?

    MODERATOR
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