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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "what is comparable today? Sooner or later, the old stands down to the creativity of tomorrow.

    Lancer EVO? STI? IS-F? RS-4?"


    Unfortunately, there's nothing comparable. 3500# is what these cars weigh today. The only current "lightweight" sports car with a backseat that I can think of is the RX-8 (and Porsche 911).

    That's why I keep my E30. It's basically a Honda S2000 with a hardtop and backseat.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I guess I don't see how adding a mere two cylinders transforms an out of balance engine into one that perfectly balanced. While I agree that a 4 cylinder engine probably has more NVH (noise, vibration & harshness) than a 6, an 8 (either a V-type or straight 8 like my grandmothers 50 Buick) should be still better, with a V12 or V16 at the optimum.

    An inline 6 is better than a 60 degree V6.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,396
    Perhaps they will create a .5 series...

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Well, whether you "see" it or not, it's the truth. Fact, I-6, H-6, V-12, and H-12 engines are naturally in balance for all free forces of both the first and second order, and free moments of the first and second order, and to the best of my knowledge are the only commonly built piston engines that are naturally in balance, and as such, naturally smooth.

    A discussion of the whys and hows of this balance issue is complex and long winded, and is way too over the top for the purposes of this forum. If you don't believe it, buy yourself a Bosch Automotive Handbook (I have one and it is a phenomenal wealth of information), or you can look at any number of web sites that discuss such things. Here are a few:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_engine
    http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/engine_speed_related.htm- -

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,879
    I actually first walked away from the car last Sunday after initially looking at it because it was an Automatic. A few voices in my head (roadburner & fedlawman) told me I was crazy. I'm actually going to learn to perform the maintenience on the car myself. Once I get it running well, then I'll swap out the slushbox for a 5-speed. ;)

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    What, it's an automatic?!?!

    I missed that part of your original message. Never mind, you shouldn't have bought it. :P
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I looked over your references, and while wikipedia is a good source it is not always entirely correct. They commented that straight eight engines did not have OHV which is not correct as the Buick Straight Eight had OHV beginning in the 1930's.

    I see your point about the straight six, but I still think that a nicely balanced V8 may be smoother running. Most sixes are V6 designs and are not as good.
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    It was drummed into me many years ago that the "smoothest", i.e. best naturally-balanced engines are 6's and 12's. 4's and 8's will always be less well naturally-balanced. No, can't explain why now but no doubt some of the pro engineers will be able to. Not sure about V6's as we didn't have many of those back in my day but we did have quite a few nice straight-6's; and they were very smooth if not terribly powerful by today's standards.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    If you look at shipo's references and follow on with some of the other references you will find that the V6 needs counter balancing to run smoothly. With counter balancing the V8 is very smooth running. I think shipo's point was that the inline six without counter balancing is smooth running, while other engines require some sort of balancing.

    As I see it, the size of an inline six for any particular vehicle will be limited by how much space is given to the hood length. For the same hood length, a V-engine will take up less space and can therefore be larger than the inline six, for up to 12 cylinders.
  • fphjr01fphjr01 Posts: 3
    I liked the comment about how "an increase in boost pressure should bring the hp from 300 to 355". This is interesting, considering that many of the available reviews on the 335's performance have indicated that the book 300hp claim is very likely low-balling the actual output.

    What a perfect idea -- make a 335 tii version, claim that there is 55 more hp than the standard engine (when it's actually exactly the same), and charge $5000 more for the 'modification'.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Inline engines also have much less mechanical complexity. V engines are a design nightmare - angles and extra connecting rods and multiple camshafts and...

    That adds weight as well. And worsens efficiency. So as a result, you can make a smaller I-6 than a V6 and get the same results. So often, you can fit the I-6 in the car as well as a V6.

    But GM and Ford never really designed I-6 engines - at least not recently. So they trudge along with their overly complex V engines. BMW and Mercedes started out with inline engines and still use a lot of them.

    As for the weight, 3400lbs is just about what my 87 Buick Park Ave weighed. That's hideously bloated for such a small car. It should be closer to 2600lbs.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    You can get that with a Dinan mod for 2k.
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    Might as well make room for this car in this segment. I havent seen what else it has to offer but it will slaughter a lot of the pseudo ELLPS. 295 pound feet of torque, pretty impressive.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Edmunds Saab Turbo X write-up:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124967

    Yes, it's a FWD-bias Haldex system - ie garbage.

    3800 lbs.

    And that legendary saab performance. Oh right, it's a saab...
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    Gosh, you are merciless. I will read the article and see what edmunds says. I think its a fair attempt by SAAB though
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    GM does have on OHC truck I6 that was used on the mid-size SUVs. So GM has an inline six that is a recent design, but it was not design for cars. I think that the torque and power output of an engine is related to the size of the engine and an inline engine does not have more torque just because it is an inline.

    The 87 Park Avenue was bigger than the current 3-series which is just a heavy.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,396
    I disagree...even compared to the CTS, this car is low grade and should not be in ELLPS category, IMHO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    I will respecfully widthdraw this candidate :blush:
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Why?

    Just because two "contributors" don't like the car, it doesn't mean that we should NOT talk about the Saab here.

    AFAIC, the Saab is considered a competitor in this category, and so does just about every other automotive source that's out there. They may not like it, but it's out there, offering similar performance and items/features, for a similar price.
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    It starts at 42k, there are only sending 600 to the US, is only available in black. If it were a mass car like everything else in ELLPS I would have happily proceeded with the argument but I cant just do that for the sake of it.

    I like the way you think though ;)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Woot! The Bimmerphiles win again :P
  • r34r34 Posts: 178
    Actually Saab is not big. It may not have the good handling as the Bimmer's and it may not have good interior as the Audi's. However, it is a nice overall package. It gives you a taste of European car with an Accord price (after all incentives). It belongs to highway. The turbo is amazing. You can feel safe driving it with triple digits (like most European cars). You can drive some cars in triple digits but you will not feel safe because they were not built for autobahnn speed.

    I don't trust certain car reviews. People need to test drive the cars.
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    Inline engines also have much less mechanical complexity. V engines are a design nightmare - angles and extra connecting rods and multiple camshafts and...

    That adds weight as well. And worsens efficiency. So as a result, you can make a smaller I-6 than a V6 and get the same results. So often, you can fit the I-6 in the car as well as a V6.


    Forgive me for being pedantic but why would a V6 need more connecting rods than an I6 ? Also, don't forget that you make make a shorter, (in length and lose a little height), engine in V6 than of the same bore I6.............can see some benefits there. Of course Flat 6's are even better, albeit rather rare. Subaru and Porsche being the only ones that come to mind in current production.

    No particular preference for V or I - just like 6's in general and 5 cylinder diesels in particular, (yes, I know, it's my age :) ).
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Forgive me for being pedantic but why would a V6 need more connecting rods than an I6 ? ...

    It doesn't. Six cylinders are six cylinders. He was just spitting out parts trying feverishly to prove an I6 is better than a V6 without even considering what those parts are or what they do. :D
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    Ah, so it wasn't just an old Brit missing something, then. That's reassuring. :)

    My first car was a 1956 Vauxhall Velox - sort of U.K. take on an early-50's Chevy something; all rounded and nice. That had a 2262cc I6 that pumped out a mind-blowing 59bhp, (but a fair bit of torque), and was coupled to a 3M 'box. First was so low that you could use it for pulling up tree stumps. Even that amount of power could embarass the cross-ply tyres of the day. All black body, lots of chrome and a carnation pink & white interior, (2 x 3 seat benches), plus valve radio. You could definitely see the GM influence. Happy days. :shades:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I don't have any preference either, as long as a 6-banger gives me 300+ hp then I am good. I prefer NA but I'll take an almost-turbo-lag-less twin turbo 6 as well.
  • sjaievesjaieve Posts: 252
    I prefer 300+ horses with a nice price tag and a respectable 0-60 & 1/4 mile. All I need to know about the engine copmonents is there are reliable, nothing more
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I meant more parts in the connecting rods. I see it as having pultiple connecting rods since it has more than one part between the piston and the crankshaft.

    *** from wiki on 60 degree engines***
    However, more modern designs often use a 3-throw crankshaft with what are termed flying arms between the crankpins, which not only give the required 120° separation but also can be used for balancing purposes. Combined with a pair of heavy counterweights on the crankshaft ends, these can eliminate all but a modest secondary imbalance which can easily be damped out by the engine mounts
    ***
    So you don't have piston. rod. crankshaft. like in an inline engine. You have a bunch of intermediary parts kludged together to keep it from shaking itself apart.

    GM's 90 degree designs are even more complex and run even rougher, being designed off of V8 engines. Actually quite nasty, really. They tend to eat through engine mounts fairly regularly.

    The reason you don't see many I6s is because they usually won't fit in a FWD car due to there needing to be space for the CV joints and transmission as well. Thankfully it is making a comeback as makers are slowly realizing what a giant turd FWD technology is, especially in vehicles with over 200HP.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,305
    ". . .plus valve radio."

    I also remember tube (valve) radios in cars -- they took awhile to warm up and really could run down the battery if left on while the engine (with its generator) was shut down. Lots of things have improved tremendously in automobiles over the past 50 years, but many of them add weight.

    My '65 MGB was lots of fun to drive & own, with the knock-offs, wire wheels, the tightest steering I've ever had and shifter feel that was unequalled. Safe? Not really. Powerful? No. Radio quality? Awful. Still, a wonderful car.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Ummm, I'm thinking that you've grossly misinterpreted what you quoted from Wikipedia. True, most V6 engines use a three throw crank with some form of an offset between paired connecting rods to achieve an even 120 degree firing interval, however, even the 60 degree engines that use flying arms (an arm that reaches between connecting rods and extends from the throw back through the axis of the crank and some distance beyond) have no more complicated connecting rod assemblies than an inline engine. FWIW, flying arms are cast into the crank itself, they don't move independently and other than a little machining to remove a small amount of metal in the balancing process, require no extra work during engine assembly.

    Actually, when looked at from a part count perspective, V6 crank shaft, crank bearing, and connecting rod assemblies (bearings included) are actually simpler than an I6. Why is that? Simple, your typical V6 only uses four main bearings with a single 2-cylinder offset throw in between each main pair, however, your typical I6 uses seven main bearings with each cylinder having its own throw situated between main pairs. In spite of this difference, I6 engines usually have a considerably lower parts count compared to a V6 of an otherwise similar design.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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